The Politics Thread

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

It is a technical definition - the one the government use.. it makes sense to use that one...

Sorry, I ask this question without having read the article, but is the definition in question one of 'relative poverty'?

The use of relative poverty as a measure has never made sense to me. Using those measures, if some were really stinking rich and had several Bentleys and houses, and the others merely had one each, then those with one each would be in poverty. It's nonsense.

Which is not to say that income inequality is not potentially a problem, but I think it is an unhelpful distraction to talk about that in terms of 'poverty'.

This is also why the 'Living Wage' is an unhelpful and misleading figure - it purports to be a figure that deals with 'absolute poverty', but has components that relate to relative wages.

Sorry if your article deals firmly with absolute poverty, Bish, and I have got the wrong end of the stick.

[thebish]

It is a technical definition - the one the government use.. it makes sense to use that one...

Sorry, I ask this question without having read the article, but is the definition in question one of 'relative poverty'?

The use of relative poverty as a measure has never made sense to me. Using those measures, if some were really stinking rich and had several Bentleys and houses, and the others merely had one each, then those with one each would be in poverty. It's nonsense.

Which is not to say that income inequality is not potentially a problem, but I think it is an unhelpful distraction to talk about that in terms of 'poverty'.

This is also why the 'Living Wage' is an unhelpful and misleading figure - it purports to be a figure that deals with 'absolute poverty', but has components that relate to relative wages.

Sorry if your article deals firmly with absolute poverty, Bish, and I have got the wrong end of the stick.

the £13million figure is included in the report's introduction (though the report is not primarily a debate about the definition of poverty - relative or absolute - it is an exploration of some of the "myths" about people who live in poverty however it is defined.)

The figure is the one arrived at by the Institute for Fiscal Studies (the leading independent microeconomic research institute - seen as authoritative commentators on the public finances, tax and welfare policy, tax law, education, inequality and poverty, pensions, consumer behaviour and a load of other stuff.)

you can read their very detailed and extensive rationale behind the figure in their report: "Living standards, poverty and
inequality in the UK: 2012" http://www.ifs.org.uk/comms/comm124.pdf

I think that the report I linked to uses this figure simply because it is the measurement that successive governments (labour/conservative and coalition) have used to measure their success in taking people out of poverty. if a group wants to contribute in any way to the debate - then it makes sense to use the figure/measurement that the people you are talking to are already using..

there are dozens of ways to measure and define poverty - that is not in dispute - it just makes sense to use one that is common currency when participating in a debate...

[Lost Leopard Spot]

The Chris Huhne/Vicky Pryce thing has finally reached its denouement but one thing has been bugging me about it all.

Every time the telly shows one of em walking into and out of court there's some chap walking behind with a poster saying something along the lines of "No nukes blah Fukushima blah Huhne & media gagging order"

Whats he on about ?

He has a bee in his bonnet about the secret way that this society works - he's picked on two things and conflated them into a conspiracy theory.
Thing one is that there was a press banning order up until a week before Huhne finally confessed to a guilty plea - Id posted about it earlier on this thread actually, and I was, technically, in breach of that order.
Thing two is there is also a press ban in place on reporting certain aspects of the tsunami in Japan, the leak of radiation and the storage of certain 'components' - this was granted by a court in this country to a global multinational to protect certain 'sensitivities'.
This bloke obviously thinks that the Illuminati or some other group are at work.

[Lost Leopard Spot]

It is a technical definition - the one the government use.. it makes sense to use that one...

Sorry, I ask this question without having read the article, but is the definition in question one of 'relative poverty'?

The use of relative poverty as a measure has never made sense to me. Using those measures, if some were really stinking rich and had several Bentleys and houses, and the others merely had one each, then those with one each would be in poverty. It's nonsense.

Which is not to say that income inequality is not potentially a problem, but I think it is an unhelpful distraction to talk about that in terms of 'poverty'.

This is also why the 'Living Wage' is an unhelpful and misleading figure - it purports to be a figure that deals with 'absolute poverty', but has components that relate to relative wages.

Sorry if your article deals firmly with absolute poverty, Bish, and I have got the wrong end of the stick.

the £13million figure is included in the report's introduction (though the report is not primarily a debate about the definition of poverty - relative or absolute - it is an exploration of some of the "myths" about people who live in poverty however it is defined.)

The figure is the one arrived at by the Institute for Fiscal Studies (the leading independent microeconomic research institute - seen as authoritative commentators on the public finances, tax and welfare policy, tax law, education, inequality and poverty, pensions, consumer behaviour and a load of other stuff.)

you can read their very detailed and extensive rationale behind the figure in their report: "Living standards, poverty and
inequality in the UK: 2012" http://www.ifs.org.uk/comms/comm124.pdf

I think that the report I linked to uses this figure simply because it is the measurement that successive governments (labour/conservative and coalition) have used to measure their success in taking people out of poverty. if a group wants to contribute in any way to the debate - then it makes sense to use the figure/measurement that the people you are talking to are already using..

there are dozens of ways to measure and define poverty - that is not in dispute - it just makes sense to use one that is common currency when participating in a debate...

Sorry Bish, I've come late to this debate. But I have one (and one only) bone to pick with it... this one: where it says, quote "Myth 1 ... It is readily accepted that across the country there are families in which three generations have never worked. Examples of such families have not been found, and the evidence suggests it is unlikely we ever will."
Names and addresses can be supplied.
Indeed just looking out of my office window I can spot a well known local youth (unemployed, swigging lager as I type) whose mother I know for a fact has never worked. His father is creature unknown. Indeed his mother has four children all by different fathers, not one of which have ever been evident in the children's lives. His grandmother, that is his mother's mother lives in the same house, is bed-ridden and has also never worked in her life. His elder sister, by the way also unemployed, has a baby daughter who being only a few months old is also obviously not nor never has been employed - which technically speaking is one better than this 'myth' and constitutes a four generational never done a day's work in their misbegotten lives family. They all smoke as well (apart from the baby) - not that that adds anything to the debate.

[thebish]

Sorry Bish, I've come late to this debate. But I have one (and one only) bone to pick with it... this one: where it says, quote "Myth 1 ... It is readily accepted that across the country there are families in which three generations have never worked. Examples of such families have not been found, and the evidence suggests it is unlikely we ever will."

i share your scepticism that no such families can be found. the report seems to overstate it's case here. it would have been sufficient to say (as i think is still probably true) that it is much rarer than people imagine...

[Lost Leopard Spot]

Sorry Bish, I've come late to this debate. But I have one (and one only) bone to pick with it... this one: where it says, quote "Myth 1 ... It is readily accepted that across the country there are families in which three generations have never worked. Examples of such families have not been found, and the evidence suggests it is unlikely we ever will."

i share your scepticism that no such families can be found. the report seems to overstate it's case here. it would have been sufficient to say (as i think is still probably true) that it is much rarer than people imagine...

I would readily agree with you on that point.

[thebish]

Cameron appears to have used the OBR's name in vain...

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 27107.html

[Harry Genshaw]

The Chris Huhne/Vicky Pryce thing has finally reached its denouement but one thing has been bugging me about it all.

Every time the telly shows one of em walking into and out of court there's some chap walking behind with a poster saying something along the lines of "No nukes blah Fukushima blah Huhne & media gagging order"

Whats he on about ?

He has a bee in his bonnet about the secret way that this society works - he's picked on two things and conflated them into a conspiracy theory.
Thing one is that there was a press banning order up until a week before Huhne finally confessed to a guilty plea - Id posted about it earlier on this thread actually, and I was, technically, in breach of that order.
Thing two is there is also a press ban in place on reporting certain aspects of the tsunami in Japan, the leak of radiation and the storage of certain 'components' - this was granted by a court in this country to a global multinational to protect certain 'sensitivities'.
This bloke obviously thinks that the Illuminati or some other group are at work.

Ah right. Cheers Spotty

[William the White]

The Chris Huhne/Vicky Pryce thing has finally reached its denouement but one thing has been bugging me about it all.

Every time the telly shows one of em walking into and out of court there's some chap walking behind with a poster saying something along the lines of "No nukes blah Fukushima blah Huhne & media gagging order"

Whats he on about ?

He has a bee in his bonnet about the secret way that this society works - he's picked on two things and conflated them into a conspiracy theory.
Thing one is that there was a press banning order up until a week before Huhne finally confessed to a guilty plea - Id posted about it earlier on this thread actually, and I was, technically, in breach of that order.
Thing two is there is also a press ban in place on reporting certain aspects of the tsunami in Japan, the leak of radiation and the storage of certain 'components' - this was granted by a court in this country to a global multinational to protect certain 'sensitivities'.
This bloke obviously thinks that the Illuminati or some other group are at work.

Ah right. Cheers Spotty

Tango almost certainly thinks it's the Knights Templar...

[Lost Leopard Spot]

The Chris Huhne/Vicky Pryce thing has finally reached its denouement but one thing has been bugging me about it all.

Every time the telly shows one of em walking into and out of court there's some chap walking behind with a poster saying something along the lines of "No nukes blah Fukushima blah Huhne & media gagging order"

Whats he on about ?

He has a bee in his bonnet about the secret way that this society works - he's picked on two things and conflated them into a conspiracy theory.
Thing one is that there was a press banning order up until a week before Huhne finally confessed to a guilty plea - Id posted about it earlier on this thread actually, and I was, technically, in breach of that order.
Thing two is there is also a press ban in place on reporting certain aspects of the tsunami in Japan, the leak of radiation and the storage of certain 'components' - this was granted by a court in this country to a global multinational to protect certain 'sensitivities'.
This bloke obviously thinks that the Illuminati or some other group are at work.

Ah right. Cheers Spotty

Tango almost certainly thinks it's the Knights Templar...

He'll probably be out there today, but he'll need to be quick and wave his placard on the way in, because if he waits for them to come out he'll be waiting for quite a while, tee hee.

[Harry Genshaw]

He'll probably be out there today, but he'll need to be quick and wave his placard on the way in, because if he waits for them to come out he'll be waiting for quite a while, tee hee.

8 months each. Sounds about right. Should make their family get togethers pretty interesting in the future.

[Prufrock]

Apparently he's trying to persuade her to do his time for him.

[TANGODANCER]

Will he be on "Huhne do you think you are?"

[Prufrock]

One of the guys Kinty and I (used to) do the quiz with came up with 'Huhne wants to be a prison-aire?'. Some groaned, I thought it was ace!

[thebish]

Israeli forces have sprayed Palestinian homes in the village of Nabi Saleh with raw sewage as a punishment for organising weekly protests against the Apartheid Wall built on occupied West Bank land. Human rights watchdog B'Tselem published a video showing Israel's armoured tanker trucks fitted with "water cannons" which spray the foul fluid at Palestinian protesters.

B'Tselem said in a statement that the Israeli forces also targeted all the houses of the village with the sewage. The powerful jet broke windows and caused a great deal of damage in the houses, said the Israeli organisation. "It also causes environmental damage," it pointed out. The non-lethal weapon has been added to the Israelis' armoury for crowd control, said B'Tselem, even though the video shows clearly that it is also used against Palestinian-owned property.

The Israeli military has been looking for an alternative to tear gas canisters for crowd control, claiming that the Palestinians now know how to cope with the gas and its effects.

[Harry Genshaw]

I'm not remotely impressed with Ed Miliband but loved his question at PMQs today regarding the latest U-turn, this time on minimum drinks pricing

"Is there anything in a brewery you could organise?"

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

The quality of their interns is obviously improving.

[mrkint]

Maybe he should consider asking pertinent questions rather than throwing £450 away on a potshot like they do every week.

(I know it's not as simple as that but w/e)

[BWFC_Insane]

Maybe he should consider asking pertinent questions rather than throwing £450 away on a potshot like they do every week.

(I know it's not as simple as that but w/e)

Not much point in that, because you don't get pertinent answers.

Whole thing from all concerned is a massive embarrassment really.

Speak like normal folk and stop all that embarrassing gufawwing and hear hear bollocks.

It's about time they behaved like normal professionals and abandoned all the public school toffee nosed debating characatures.

Speak like you would if you were working in a multi-national business. That might be a start.

[thebish]

Maybe he should consider asking pertinent questions rather than throwing £450 away on a potshot like they do every week.

(I know it's not as simple as that but w/e)

if he does - then the PM wouldn't answer... the whole shebang (despite successive PMs and opposition leaders telling us that they are going to treat it seriously) is just a set-piece bit of ya-boo politics and serves no constructive purpose at all... If Milliband didn't join in the ya-booery - then the papers would say he was weak and ineffective...

in order to get reported he simply has to join in the pointless one-liner buffoonery.

he has 5(?) questions... I have often wondered how it would sound if he calmly and quietly simply asked the same serious question 5 times (paxmanesque-stylee).... Cameron evading it 5 times would be much more powerful than two buffoons pretending to be stand-up comedians...