The Politics Thread

[thebish]

And has the NHS delivered world-class outcomes on any metric during his career?

the Telegraph medical correspondent - having studied a report from the Commonwealth Fund comparing the UK, France, Germany, Switzerland, Sweden, Norway, the Netherlands, the US, Canada, Australia and New Zealand seemed to think we were up in the top echelon.

[Worthy4England]

RIP NHS...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree ... -as-nhs-gp

"I believe the way a society delivers its healthcare defines the values and nature of that society."

Which other society delivers healthcare in the way he would like it to be delivered?

And has the NHS delivered world-class outcomes on any metric during his career?

I don't understand the "which other society" bit. We should compare ourselves to below average because that's where others are at?

[Lost Leopard Spot]

I am, for the first time in my life, considering 'wasting' my vote by registering a protest vote next Thursday. I'm thinking of voting UKIP just for the hell of it. Trouble is, I don't know if there's a UKIP candidate here.

[thebish]

I am, for the first time in my life, considering 'wasting' my vote by registering a protest vote next Thursday. I'm thinking of voting UKIP just for the hell of it. Trouble is, I don't know if there's a UKIP candidate here.

if there isn't - you can write hoboh's name in - add a little box and tick it.

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

And has the NHS delivered world-class outcomes on any metric during his career?

the Telegraph medical correspondent - having studied a report from the Commonwealth Fund comparing the UK, France, Germany, Switzerland, Sweden, Norway, the Netherlands, the US, Canada, Australia and New Zealand seemed to think we were up in the top echelon.

When/where was this?

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

RIP NHS...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree ... -as-nhs-gp

"I believe the way a society delivers its healthcare defines the values and nature of that society."

Which other society delivers healthcare in the way he would like it to be delivered?

And has the NHS delivered world-class outcomes on any metric during his career?

I don't understand the "which other society" bit. We should compare ourselves to below average because that's where others are at?

I'm not talking about an average - I'm asking whether the argument is that we should pursue a unique model?

[Lord Kangana]

Because its better?

[thebish]

And has the NHS delivered world-class outcomes on any metric during his career?

the Telegraph medical correspondent - having studied a report from the Commonwealth Fund comparing the UK, France, Germany, Switzerland, Sweden, Norway, the Netherlands, the US, Canada, Australia and New Zealand seemed to think we were up in the top echelon.

When/where was this?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healt ... ml#mm_hash

[BWFC_Insane]

I am, for the first time in my life, considering 'wasting' my vote by registering a protest vote next Thursday. I'm thinking of voting UKIP just for the hell of it. Trouble is, I don't know if there's a UKIP candidate here.

Yeah cos voting for Farage will massively help things..........

[Lost Leopard Spot]

I am, for the first time in my life, considering 'wasting' my vote by registering a protest vote next Thursday. I'm thinking of voting UKIP just for the hell of it. Trouble is, I don't know if there's a UKIP candidate here.

Yeah cos voting for Farage will massively help things..........

It's a protest vote. For the local elections. Even if Farage himself were standing it isn't going to alter the political landscape one iota, unless my parish council decides to abrogate the European Union treaty or join Scotland in its independence bid or something. I've considered the Monster Raving Loony Party but nobody else votes for them. And there's no point protesting if the fxcker you are using to protest doesn't stand a snowballs is there?

[Lost Leopard Spot]

I'd consider standing myself, except it costs actual fxcking money to do so.

Anyway, here's a picture of Nigel basking in the warm glow of all those protest votes he's going to garner...

[Prufrock]

I am, for the first time in my life, considering 'wasting' my vote by registering a protest vote next Thursday. I'm thinking of voting UKIP just for the hell of it. Trouble is, I don't know if there's a UKIP candidate here.

Yeah cos voting for Farage will massively help things..........

It's a protest vote. For the local elections. Even if Farage himself were standing it isn't going to alter the political landscape one iota, unless my parish council decides to abrogate the European Union treaty or join Scotland in its independence bid or something. I've considered the Monster Raving Loony Party but nobody else votes for them. And there's no point protesting if the fxcker you are using to protest doesn't stand a snowballs is there?

Isn't that the exact point of a protest vote?! Other wise it's not a protest vote, it's just a vote!

[Lost Leopard Spot]

I am, for the first time in my life, considering 'wasting' my vote by registering a protest vote next Thursday. I'm thinking of voting UKIP just for the hell of it. Trouble is, I don't know if there's a UKIP candidate here.

Yeah cos voting for Farage will massively help things..........

It's a protest vote. For the local elections. Even if Farage himself were standing it isn't going to alter the political landscape one iota, unless my parish council decides to abrogate the European Union treaty or join Scotland in its independence bid or something. I've considered the Monster Raving Loony Party but nobody else votes for them. And there's no point protesting if the fxcker you are using to protest doesn't stand a snowballs is there?

Isn't that the exact point of a protest vote?! Other wise it's not a protest vote, it's just a vote!

You might be right. I'm new to this protest vote thing.
So, if I'm not mistaken then, you'd consider it a failure of protestation if when we wake up next Friday we find every single local council seat up for grabs has gone to UKIP without a single vote being cast for Labour, Tories, or that other lot. Or is it actually your contention that the protest would have worked, but had worked too well and we'd now be landed with yet another bunch of smug tosspots who couldn't organise a pissup in a brothel or a shag in a brewery.

[BWFC_Insane]

I don't really understand the argument of a protest vote anyhow. "I'm protesting about politicians by voting for another politician".

I also don't buy the "they're all a useless set of self serving tossers" either. It's a massive cop out. Like in all walks of life, politicians will encompass the good, bad and ugly.

You can argue that the system we have that creates "career politicians" is wrong and that the likes of Richard Branson should directly run the country.

I also think in general, people blame politicians for a lot of things that aren't really their fault. There is the argument that most politicians don't have the first clue about the areas they try to politicise over. For example one could make a strong case (and I'd probably agree) that Michael Gove is not qualified to be Secretary of State for Education.

We have the system we've got. I don't think it's perfect and certainly could do with some changes. Proportional representation or a variant of, would be a start. Then the notion of "protest voting" would go. And people would genuinely feel more adequately and fairly represented based on their vote.

For me the majority of the time politicians set the tone for the country. They in effect send the message out but then it's up to civil servants/private industry/us/NHS etc to enact those policies. And often that is with mixed success, even taking the rights and wrongs of the initial decision away.

Reform is definitely needed. But I don't think saying all politicians are corrupt/self serving idiots then voting for a party fronted by Nigel Fecking Farage is anything short of sheer lunacy.

[thebish]

I don't really understand the argument of a protest vote anyhow. "I'm protesting about politicians by voting for another politician".

that's because of the ludicrous way you present the argument you are arguing against.

most people who register a protest vote do not do so because they are protesting about "politicians" per se (people who do that simply don't vote - or vote for a non-Political {capital P} candidate like a single-issue-campaigner or a have-a-larf nutjob). Your average protest voter is usually (not always, but usually) protesting about the current government - giving them a bit of a bloody nose in an election that the voter considers to be less crucial than a general election by voting in a way that might give the government bad headlines the next day - is something very different to your aunt-sally characterisation.

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

And has the NHS delivered world-class outcomes on any metric during his career?

the Telegraph medical correspondent - having studied a report from the Commonwealth Fund comparing the UK, France, Germany, Switzerland, Sweden, Norway, the Netherlands, the US, Canada, Australia and New Zealand seemed to think we were up in the top echelon.

When/where was this?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healt ... ml#mm_hash

I mean, that is interesting, and I'm not saying that the NHS has not had its good apsects over the years, because it clearly has, and the civilised relationship with a family GP is obviously a big part of that. But those weren't the sort of hard metrics (like cancer survival rates, say) I had in mind.

Going back to the original article you posted - I always find it difficult to evaluate what GPs say, because I do have a lot of sympathy with those people who say that GPs have traditionally been on an exceptionally cushy number in terms of the hours they work and what they get paid. There aren't many 9-5 jobs out there that pay at the levels the top half of GPs get. Over the years they negotiated themselves out of providing out of hours and weekend services. If you believe, as some peole do, that the NHS has been run for the convenience of GPs for a long time, it perhaps isn't surprising to see them objecting to things being shaken up.

[thebish]

I mean, that is interesting, and I'm not saying that the NHS has not had its good apsects over the years, because it clearly has, and the civilised relationship with a family GP is obviously a big part of that. But those weren't the sort of hard metrics (like cancer survival rates, say) I had in mind.

Going back to the original article you posted - I always find it difficult to evaluate what GPs say, because I do have a lot of sympathy with those people who say that GPs have traditionally been on an exceptionally cushy number in terms of the hours they work and what they get paid. There aren't many 9-5 jobs out there that pay at the levels the top half of GPs get. Over the years they negotiated themselves out of providing out of hours and weekend services. If you believe, as some peole do, that the NHS has been run for the convenience of GPs for a long time, it perhaps isn't surprising to see them objecting to things being shaken up.

I'm sure you can find the metrics you are looking for yourself if you put your mind to it!

I can understand your dismiss the doctors' opinion because they are on a cushy number angle, but, given that - who DO you take seriously when weighing up this issue? Presumably you are listening to someone else who hasn't got another agenda? who would that be?

[Lost Leopard Spot]

I'm protesting about a lot of things.
One of the things I'm protesting about is the irony of UKIP standing in local elections. It's not quite as good as voting for them in the European elections, mind. The sheer irony of UKIP having a MEP is utterly fabulous.
Secondly, I'm not going to hurt the goddam Tories (or even their feckless harlot tailcoaters, the Libdems) by voting for Labour - which is my natural instinct - because all that'll happen is that the Tory mob will get in again and we'll get the same old same old once again. But, it just might be that there are enough tories and libdems out there who are thinking of voting UKIP and therefore me (a Labour supporter) adding another vote to that particular pile might, just might lead to a bloody nose for the central government (even though delivered through the local government system).
The third thing I'm protesting about is Wallace. I just can't bring myself to vote for a member of the Labour party (any member, no matter if otherwise they are the political equivalent of Albert Einstein, which none of the fxckers are anyway) who has as their leader that ineffectual joke. The Labour party should be ripping this particular government to shreds, but Milliband's about as worrisome as a very small boil. A very small boil on someone else's neck.
And fourthly, although I hadn't realised it until now, I'm going to protest vote to annoy all those people who think that protest voting is a waste of time.

[Lord Kangana]

I'm going to register my protest against protest voting by voting for someone who the protest voter would like to protest-vote against.

So, LLS, who's it to be?

[BWFC_Insane]

I don't really understand the argument of a protest vote anyhow. "I'm protesting about politicians by voting for another politician".

that's because of the ludicrous way you present the argument you are arguing against.

most people who register a protest vote do not do so because they are protesting about "politicians" per se (people who do that simply don't vote - or vote for a non-Political {capital P} candidate like a single-issue-campaigner or a have-a-larf nutjob). Your average protest voter is usually (not always, but usually) protesting about the current government - giving them a bit of a bloody nose in an election that the voter considers to be less crucial than a general election by voting in a way that might give the government bad headlines the next day - is something very different to your aunt-sally characterisation.

Yes I understand that. But it doesn't seem to be what LLS is protesting against in general. And surely a protest vote against a government is best orchestrated by voting for their main political opponent?