The Politics Thread

[Lost Leopard Spot]

Well excuse me if I don't quite share that view, after all when the original Arab spring revolution saw the removal of the military dictator Mubarak and his replacement by Tantawi who was in power for more than a year, absolutely not one squeak about a military coup came from you, the western press, or anybody else who is now calling this a coup.
The situation is analogous. In fact the same people are back in power
So Mubarak gets overthrown = marvellous power to the people arab spring popular uprising revolution
And Morsi gets overthrown = terribly naughty soul destroying democracy crushing military coup.

[Lord Kangana]

Democratically elected leaders are not democratically elected to dismantle the democratic process. It may look like a straightforward coup, it isn't. And the US isn't getting involved because its in its best interests to have a Middle East that needs a Last Minute White Knight.

[BWFC_Insane]

You could probably squeeze a good deal out of them for a fortnight in Sharm el Sheikh though, so it's not all bad.

I take it you've never been to Sharm el Sheikh?

I haven't, and out of curiosity I've just checked, and no you can't. Drat.

Whatever they charge its too much!

[Bruce Rioja]

Whatever they charge its too much!

Really? Looks beautiful.

[BWFC_Insane]

Whatever they charge its too much!

Really? Looks beautiful.

The sea is beautiful there. The beaches, can also be beautiful. After that it is one huge building site/rubbish tip.

Like Blackpool, but you get hassled by drug pushers a lot more. And everyone, but everyone is trying to sell you something.

[Bruce Rioja]

Whatever they charge its too much!

Really? Looks beautiful.

The sea is beautiful there. The beaches, can also be beautiful. After that it is one huge building site/rubbish tip.

Like Blackpool, but you get hassled by drug pushers a lot more. And everyone, but everyone is trying to sell you something.

Ah, cheers. I'll cross it off of the list.

[thebish]

Well excuse me if I don't quite share that view, after all when the original Arab spring revolution saw the removal of the military dictator Mubarak and his replacement by Tantawi who was in power for more than a year, absolutely not one squeak about a military coup came from you, the western press, or anybody else who is now calling this a coup.
The situation is analogous. In fact the same people are back in power
So Mubarak gets overthrown = marvellous power to the people arab spring popular uprising revolution
And Morsi gets overthrown = terribly naughty soul destroying democracy crushing military coup.

can you define a military coup then - just out of interest!

[Lost Leopard Spot]

Well excuse me if I don't quite share that view, after all when the original Arab spring revolution saw the removal of the military dictator Mubarak and his replacement by Tantawi who was in power for more than a year, absolutely not one squeak about a military coup came from you, the western press, or anybody else who is now calling this a coup.
The situation is analogous. In fact the same people are back in power
So Mubarak gets overthrown = marvellous power to the people arab spring popular uprising revolution
And Morsi gets overthrown = terribly naughty soul destroying democracy crushing military coup.

can you define a military coup then - just out of interest!

I can define what I think is a military coup.
It is when a small cadre uses an army to overthrow a government with the aim of installing themselves in power. Such as what Gaddafi did to King Idris's government.
Other similar scenarios, whereby the military overthrow a government in order for another government to be installed, or for the winner of an election to become an incumbent, or to defend a constitution - which do happen from time to time, I'd class as military intervention and not as a coup.
The Egyptian army has made clear they are going to hold elections in order for a proper democratic constitution to be fulfilled, and they have a time limit for this. Therefore to me, it wouldn't be defined as a coup. (It might still become one if they fail to deliver the election, and continue in power, but as yet it is still just an intervention in order to protect the fundamental aims of the original revolution).

[thebish]

Well excuse me if I don't quite share that view, after all when the original Arab spring revolution saw the removal of the military dictator Mubarak and his replacement by Tantawi who was in power for more than a year, absolutely not one squeak about a military coup came from you, the western press, or anybody else who is now calling this a coup.
The situation is analogous. In fact the same people are back in power
So Mubarak gets overthrown = marvellous power to the people arab spring popular uprising revolution
And Morsi gets overthrown = terribly naughty soul destroying democracy crushing military coup.

can you define a military coup then - just out of interest!

I can define what I think is a military coup.
It is when a small cadre uses an army to overthrow a government with the aim of installing themselves in power. Such as what Gaddafi did to King Idris's government.
Other similar scenarios, whereby the military overthrow a government in order for another government to be installed, or for the winner of an election to become an incumbent, or to defend a constitution - which do happen from time to time, I'd class as military intervention and not as a coup.
The Egyptian army has made clear they are going to hold elections in order for a proper democratic constitution to be fulfilled, and they have a time limit for this. Therefore to me, it wouldn't be defined as a coup. (It might still become one if they fail to deliver the election, and continue in power, but as yet it is still just an intervention in order to protect the fundamental aims of the original revolution).

hmmm - interesting definition - you don't know it is one until you look back on it in history?

do you REALLY think they will be holding free and fair elections any time soon? will the Muslim Brotherhood be allowed to stand or will all the leaders have been shot/imprisoned/both?

[Lord Kangana]

I think he's clearly pointed out he'll change his mind if the elections take place bish, so thats a fairly redundant question.

[thebish]

I think he's clearly pointed out he'll change his mind if the elections take place bish, so thats a fairly redundant question.

no - he'll change his mind if the elections don't take place..

the question about whether the Muslim Brotherhood will be able to stand - how is that "redundant"?

[Lord Kangana]

I would suggest its self-evidently part and parcel of the definiton he provided.

[thebish]

I would suggest its self-evidently part and parcel of the definiton he provided.

is it though? he just said elections. Muslim Brotherhood leaders have already been killed and have already been imprisoned.

[Lord Kangana]

And last time they were in power, they suspended certain democratic principles. Its really not as straightforward as you'd like it to be.

[Lost Leopard Spot]

Well excuse me if I don't quite share that view, after all when the original Arab spring revolution saw the removal of the military dictator Mubarak and his replacement by Tantawi who was in power for more than a year, absolutely not one squeak about a military coup came from you, the western press, or anybody else who is now calling this a coup.
The situation is analogous. In fact the same people are back in power
So Mubarak gets overthrown = marvellous power to the people arab spring popular uprising revolution
And Morsi gets overthrown = terribly naughty soul destroying democracy crushing military coup.

can you define a military coup then - just out of interest!

I can define what I think is a military coup.
It is when a small cadre uses an army to overthrow a government with the aim of installing themselves in power. Such as what Gaddafi did to King Idris's government.
Other similar scenarios, whereby the military overthrow a government in order for another government to be installed, or for the winner of an election to become an incumbent, or to defend a constitution - which do happen from time to time, I'd class as military intervention and not as a coup.
The Egyptian army has made clear they are going to hold elections in order for a proper democratic constitution to be fulfilled, and they have a time limit for this. Therefore to me, it wouldn't be defined as a coup. (It might still become one if they fail to deliver the election, and continue in power, but as yet it is still just an intervention in order to protect the fundamental aims of the original revolution).

hmmm - interesting definition - you don't know it is one until you look back on it in history?

do you REALLY think they will be holding free and fair elections any time soon? will the Muslim Brotherhood be allowed to stand or will all the leaders have been shot/imprisoned/both?

Yes, I believe they will. It is the very same people who held interim power between Mubarak and the last election - they had a timeframe for elections then and stuck to it - I don't see why they won't again.
And By the way The Muslim Brotherhood were not allowed to stand in the last election - because the Muslim Brotherhood is an organisation that has avowed wishes to impose non-democratic institutions upon the Egyptian state - they are just outside the fringes of being outlawed. Morsi and his candidates stood as the Freedom and Justice Party. I expect a similar charade will take place next time, only in the coming election the Egyptian people may well be more wary of Muslim Brotherhood surrogates.

[thebish]

Well excuse me if I don't quite share that view, after all when the original Arab spring revolution saw the removal of the military dictator Mubarak and his replacement by Tantawi who was in power for more than a year, absolutely not one squeak about a military coup came from you, the western press, or anybody else who is now calling this a coup.
The situation is analogous. In fact the same people are back in power
So Mubarak gets overthrown = marvellous power to the people arab spring popular uprising revolution
And Morsi gets overthrown = terribly naughty soul destroying democracy crushing military coup.

can you define a military coup then - just out of interest!

I can define what I think is a military coup.
It is when a small cadre uses an army to overthrow a government with the aim of installing themselves in power. Such as what Gaddafi did to King Idris's government.
Other similar scenarios, whereby the military overthrow a government in order for another government to be installed, or for the winner of an election to become an incumbent, or to defend a constitution - which do happen from time to time, I'd class as military intervention and not as a coup.
The Egyptian army has made clear they are going to hold elections in order for a proper democratic constitution to be fulfilled, and they have a time limit for this. Therefore to me, it wouldn't be defined as a coup. (It might still become one if they fail to deliver the election, and continue in power, but as yet it is still just an intervention in order to protect the fundamental aims of the original revolution).

hmmm - interesting definition - you don't know it is one until you look back on it in history?

do you REALLY think they will be holding free and fair elections any time soon? will the Muslim Brotherhood be allowed to stand or will all the leaders have been shot/imprisoned/both?

Yes, I believe they will. It is the very same people who held interim power between Mubarak and the last election - they had a timeframe for elections then and stuck to it - I don't see why they won't again.
And By the way The Muslim Brotherhood were not allowed to stand in the last election - because the Muslim Brotherhood is an organisation that has avowed wishes to impose non-democratic institutions upon the Egyptian state - they are just outside the fringes of being outlawed. Morsi and his candidates stood as the Freedom and Justice Party. I expect a similar charade will take place next time, only in the coming election the Egyptian people may well be more wary of Muslim Brotherhood surrogates.

the deadline appears to be sometime in 2014... we'll see..

[thebish]

Well excuse me if I don't quite share that view, after all when the original Arab spring revolution saw the removal of the military dictator Mubarak and his replacement by Tantawi who was in power for more than a year, absolutely not one squeak about a military coup came from you, the western press, or anybody else who is now calling this a coup.

it would be very odd to formulate a definition of "military coup" that meant a military dictatorship being overthrown by the military, wouldn't it?

i suspect what we have here is a very dangerous precedent. No - i am not praising the ousted president or his party - I AM a little worried, though (thinking of the long-term) that a pattern is very quickly established. say there is an election in 2014 (for the sake of argument) - and a year later the economic situation has worsened and people are poorer because the economy is in a state and it has been mishandled - is it then the essence of a fledgeling democracy for the people to demonstrate and the army to move in and depose the President, lock him up and take power?

FWIW I don't think democracy is born overnight - nor is it perfected in one session. I think the rip-it-up-with-tanks-and-bullets-and-start-again strategy is potentially worse than the - we've-elected-a-nightmare-but-can-oust-them-at-the-next election strategy if you really want to build democracy.

also FWIW - the reason the west is not calling this a *military coup is because the US funds their army and sends billions of dollars worth of military equipment (that Mubarak used to use to oppress his people) in return for having an "arab" nation friendly with Israel...


*the sudden deposition of a government, usually by a small group of the existing state establishment—typically the military—to depose the extant government and replace it with another body, civil or military.

[Montreal Wanderer]

Well excuse me if I don't quite share that view, after all when the original Arab spring revolution saw the removal of the military dictator Mubarak and his replacement by Tantawi who was in power for more than a year, absolutely not one squeak about a military coup came from you, the western press, or anybody else who is now calling this a coup.

it would be very odd to formulate a definition of "military coup" that meant a military dictatorship being overthrown by the military, wouldn't it?

i suspect what we have here is a very dangerous precedent. No - i am not praising the ousted president or his party - I AM a little worried, though (thinking of the long-term) that a pattern is very quickly established. say there is an election in 2014 (for the sake of argument) - and a year later the economic situation has worsened and people are poorer because the economy is in a state and it has been mishandled - is it then the essence of a fledgeling democracy for the people to demonstrate and the army to move in and depose the President, lock him up and take power?

FWIW I don't think democracy is born overnight - nor is it perfected in one session. I think the rip-it-up-with-tanks-and-bullets-and-start-again strategy is potentially worse than the - we've-elected-a-nightmare-but-can-oust-them-at-the-next election strategy if you really want to build democracy.

also FWIW - the reason the west is not calling this a *military coup is because the US funds their army and sends billions of dollars worth of military equipment (that Mubarak used to use to oppress his people) in return for having an "arab" nation friendly with Israel...


*the sudden deposition of a government, usually by a small group of the existing state establishment—typically the military—to depose the extant government and replace it with another body, civil or military.

If there is a next election. Too often fledgling democracies give way to tyrannies which were originally elected democratically. I suppose the classic example would be Hitler.

[thebish]

[Lord Kangana]

There's actually a corollary for people like you too you know.