The Politics Thread

[Lost Leopard Spot]

http://vine.co/v/hiELuPQtu5H

Apparently Philip Hammond (yes, that will be the Minister for Defence) referred to Assad as Saddam Hussein twice last night.

What hope is there, really?!

None, there is none. Did you see that High Cout judge in Spain. Mr Falcon. Punching some other judge. The problem is that we have developed 'intelligence' but have not evolved beyond the ability to operate in larger groups than 50 or so. We will always look with suspicion on those outside our 'family', but the difference is that we can now kill them more efficiently than the 'lower' animals.
We are not made in God's image - we are self seeking phagating amoeba with an evolved killing machine in a more 'advanced' brain. It'll all end in tears. And will repeatedly.

[Prufrock]

I don't know! I don't know even nearly enough about Syria to pass comment. My point is 'intervention' isn't always wrong. It was right in Kosovo, arguably in Libya, and, I think, in Iraq.

You still believe that intervention in Iraq on the grounds there was irrefutable evidence of weapons of mass destruction was justified? Despite the fact that the UN, whose inspectors were there, asked the "allies" for more time? Despite the fact that invading Iraq without UN sanction is a violation of international law and a war crime? Furthermore do you think the Iraqis are better off, happier, safer than they were under Saddam? You surprise me.

As other have said there are justifications for this type of action and there are the real reasons. In my great grandfather's time, we painted Africa and a lot of the rest of the world red. We were taking "up the white man's burden" and bringing civilization to the "lesser breeds without the law", not to mention propagating the gospel. No economic or strategic interests whatsoever.

Did I say that? I said I thought it was a success. The dictator who gassed to death at least 3,500 kurds isn't in charge any more. He irrefutably did have wmds, though it seems not anymore. Is it ok then?

Long term I think Iraq will be much better off. They aren't living under a violent dictator anymore, so that's a start.

I'm glad you're convinced it was illegal and a war crime. The professional lawyers at the time didn't have a clue (I think eventually they settled on 'we don't know but we think it might be'). Remind me of the world statute that says starting a war without a UN resolution is a war crime. International Law is a phrase oft trotted out but I'm not sure, of itself, it really means much.

The oil angle really puzzles me. It turns rational men into raving lunatics. How on earth was in the interests of this oil cabal to start a war where there was oil? If it was about oil, they'd have privately threatened Saddam, he'd still be in charge and they'd have a bigger cut. I saw the oil-fields burn; how is that in their interest, and if it is (pushes prices up- for less oil!), then why don't they do it more often? Was Deepwater Horizon deliberate?

I think they wanted rid off him coz he was a cock, and in their haste they over-egged the evidence they had to make it more convincing.

[thebish]

I think they wanted rid off him coz he was a cock, and in their haste they over-egged the evidence they had to make it more convincing.

he was always a cock - but for a while he was OUR cock - and we and the americans who wring our hands so passionately about chemical weapons in Syria were more than happy to egg Saddam on wanging truckloads of chemical weapons at Iran..

we did NOT remove him because he was a cock!

[William the White]

I think they wanted rid off him coz he was a cock, and in their haste they over-egged the evidence they had to make it more convincing.

he was always a cock - but for a while he was OUR cock - and we and the americans who wring our hands so passionately about chemical weapons in Syria were more than happy to egg Saddam on wanging truckloads of chemical weapons at Iran..

we did NOT remove him because he was a cock!

Indeed, when he launched that despicable attack on the Kurdish population in 1988 he was the USA's favourite dictator.

[Lord Kangana]

That's very ill thought through re the oil Pru. The USA is hugely reliant on oil. Who controls the oil? Who's your daddy? What happens when they start taking the piss? What happens when you can't afford to pay for it in a foreign currency? What happens if all the above happens and you have the biggest military in the world? Think man!

[Lost Leopard Spot]

Oh for fxcls sake.

[Lost Leopard Spot]

It's because they are outside your small group of ape family. That's it, there is no other fxcking reason... In fact it is not a reason, it's an instinct.

[Lord Kangana]

What!?!

[William the White]

I suppose someone might understand what Spotto's on about, but I'm not among them.

[thebish]

I suppose someone might understand what Spotto's on about, but I'm not among them.

i think spotto is advancing some kind of theory of total depravity - where we (humans) need no reason or rationale to act like fecked-up warmongers and violent pig-headed thuggish tosspots...

so - any attempt to explain it - he will dismiss with a shrug and an "ugg"

that's my guess, anyway!!

[William the White]

I suppose someone might understand what Spotto's on about, but I'm not among them.

i think spotto is advancing some kind of theory of total depravity - where we (humans) need no reason or rationale to act like fecked-up warmongers and violent pig-headed thuggish tosspots...

so - any attempt to explain it - he will dismiss with a shrug and an "ugg"

that's my guess, anyway!!

Oh, ok...

do you know why he's doing it now and posting on this thread about it?

[thebish]

I suppose someone might understand what Spotto's on about, but I'm not among them.

i think spotto is advancing some kind of theory of total depravity - where we (humans) need no reason or rationale to act like fecked-up warmongers and violent pig-headed thuggish tosspots...

so - any attempt to explain it - he will dismiss with a shrug and an "ugg"

that's my guess, anyway!!

Oh, ok...

do you know why he's doing it now and posting on this thread about it?

no! I think he's making up for lost holiday time and has come back extraordinarily chilled!!

[thebish]

meanwhile..

Shame on the UK Border Force Brand Street where Asylum Seekers in Glasgow must go to report - where they have had 'Ask about Going Home' painted on chairs in the waiting room!

[Lord Kangana]

Has hoboh got a new job?

[BWFC_Insane]

Heard a rumour that Phil G is considering getting the same message painted on the seats of all season ticket holders at the Reebok.....

[William the White]

That was probably thought up by the same jerk off that thought up the bedroom tax. Which - to their great credit - the Bolton Tories are asking to be repealed.

http://www.theboltonnews.co.uk/news/106 ... edroom_tax_/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Prufrock]

1) What does the policy in 1988 have to do with the motives of the govt in 2003

Lk: firstly how does burning the oil help you get the oil. Secondly, given how knackered Saddam obviously was, why on earth wouldn't he have taken terms on cuts from said oil? Have you seen how Iraq was costing America per day?! Oil is worth a lot. An extra percentage point isn't worth that much.

[Lord Kangana]

The burning of the oil was a reactionary not pro-active move. If you're up on your Middle Eastern politics you'll know 3 truisms prior to 2003.

1) Saddam Hussein, whilst being recognised as a bit of an unhinged barmpot, was also well respected (perhaps not respected, but egged on and was an opinion former) in the Middle East for his stance on standing up to the Americans in particular, and the West in general. Where he led, many others followed.

2) Iraq is a strategically important part of the ME. Large oil reserves are found in and around it.

3) Everyone knows that The Dollar is the world reserve currency. Because of America's (and it's military, and bloody California's thirst for the stuff), and because of its inability to pay cash money (have you seen the balance of payments) it was effectively issuing mahoosive IOU's to every ME oil producer. It needed the stuff, desperately, and couldn't afford it. This point will become incredibly important in a couple of minutes.

So, Saddam being the Barmpot that he he is (please see point 1) he decides that he will take the Americans on. But how to do this? Well, last time, he tried the military approach, and that ended really badly, and the region is too important for the American's to leave alone if he did so again (please see 2). Sooooo, what to do....

Well, our friend Saddam hatches a plan that won't involve the military, rather naively thinking that the US can't do anything if he doesn't invade anyone. And besides, he hasn't got a pot to piss in anyway, so it'd be pointless. He'll play them at their own game (you'll need to re-familiarise yourself with point 3 at this stage). He'll change the pricing of oil to....drum roll please...The Euro. If you've a vague understanding of economics you'll see what this would entail.

I hope this helps.

Of course, he didn't figure on Colin Powell sitting in front of the UN with an elaborate lie about how the US should invade. At that point I'm sure himself and a few of his cohorts besides thought "f*ck, we've done it this time".

[Prufrock]

But if this oil cabal is as powerful as you and any number of spy thriller writers think, presumably they'd have said give us an exta cut, and we'll let you stay in power (whilst bragging about how America were cowed from invading, see point 1) and avoid us having to pay for the actual war (which presumably would have been what the Americans would have demanded?! I'm not convinced that Saddam didn't think a post 9-11 George Bush wouldn't invade. As I remember it, we wrung our hands, the Americans were going anyway.

[William the White]

1) What does the policy in 1988 have to do with the motives of the govt in 2003

Lk: firstly how does burning the oil help you get the oil. Secondly, given how knackered Saddam obviously was, why on earth wouldn't he have taken terms on cuts from said oil? Have you seen how Iraq was costing America per day?! Oil is worth a lot. An extra percentage point isn't worth that much.

I was hoping you'd let us in on it - it's you that keeps using it as a justification for the invasion...