general enquiry about Pensions and Life Savings (and stuff)

[Lost Leopard Spot]

if you think as many as 1% of them go to matches - then you're a dirty manc and I claim my £5...

I was, under instruction from Pru, being hyperbolic. Of course I meant 0.1% of them, which is still more than the combined pew inches in the universe.

[Prufrock]

Damn straight! I'm not sure how relevant a comparison with football is (holding back my reservations on the veracity of those numbers!).

i was responding to your claim that nobody goes to church. yet you would not (presumably) say that nobody goes to watch football - would you? despite the fact that massively more people go to church than go to watch football in the UK.

Firstly, just because you call it a fact doesn't make it one . Secondly, as I said above I was being hyperbolic with no one. I just mean waaaay fewer.

I don't know if more or fewer people go to watch football than used to, but the reasons I think football is f*cked are naught to do with the numbers going.

This must be what it's like to be a Daily Mail collumnist !

[Lost Leopard Spot]

This must be what it's like to be a Daily Mail collumnist !

[Prufrock]

I dont have a butcher because all of the ones in my area are halal and I'm uneasy about the methods used to kill the animals

are you not uneasy about the methods used to kill animals for a non-halal butcher?

Sometimes. But less so. I know there are some dodgy things that no doubt go on, but I don't know what they are and in which places. I can be blissfully ignorant that they are live happy lives up to the point that they're stunned and instantly killed. Once a place advertises itself as 'halal' it shatters my pretence. I know there are places that use halal meat anyway but if I don't know about it then it's fine!

[thebish]

I dont have a butcher because all of the ones in my area are halal and I'm uneasy about the methods used to kill the animals

are you not uneasy about the methods used to kill animals for a non-halal butcher?

Sometimes. But less so. I know there are some dodgy things that no doubt go on, but I don't know what they are and in which places. I can be blissfully ignorant that they are live happy lives up to the point that they're stunned and instantly killed. Once a place advertises itself as 'halal' it shatters my pretence. I know there are places that use halal meat anyway but if I don't know about it then it's fine!

you reckon?

[Athers]

I think he was talking about Pru World.

I have a butcher I use ( indeed, I have a farmer I stock up with from time to time), I have a local ... I don't go to church but mrs. bobo does, and I have a few good lical restaurants I frequent more readily than using chain groups *except for Nandos.

Middle England, even in Wales, thrives young man. Just because you're all cosmopolitan just presume everyone is.

I would suggest you're the exception in having a farmer!

Town centres used to be full of butcher, baker, florist, a co-op, grocer etc. Now they're all takeaways and all the above is available at Tesco or Asda. My old man was a butcher run out of business by an Asda supermarket, but ironically he ended up working there as in-store butcher later, so I suppose the jobs just move, but there is *something* lost when the local man runs his own business, has a relationship with his customers and so on, ends up in a back-room as a colleague of Wal-Mart.

Of course its customer driven behaviour which has caused all this. Women work so much more now, and with free parking available next to an A-road it's just so much easier to get it all done quickly. Pubs you could probably argue about tax & brewery behaviour.

[Prufrock]

I dont have a butcher because all of the ones in my area are halal and I'm uneasy about the methods used to kill the animals

are you not uneasy about the methods used to kill animals for a non-halal butcher?

Sometimes. But less so. I know there are some dodgy things that no doubt go on, but I don't know what they are and in which places. I can be blissfully ignorant that they are live happy lives up to the point that they're stunned and instantly killed. Once a place advertises itself as 'halal' it shatters my pretence. I know there are places that use halal meat anyway but if I don't know about it then it's fine!

you reckon?

Lalala blissful ignorance lalala!!!

[thebish]

Firstly, just because you call it a fact doesn't make it one .

well... as far as I can tell...

there are a little over 3million people who are in church on an average week in the UK

there are 687,430 (on average) going to premiership games
and 162,500 going to non-league games

I can't find a figure for the championship and leagues 1 and 2... but I'd be very doubtful that adding them would take the football-going total anywhere near 3 million.

those are my best attempts! you can dispute the numbers - but I'd like to see what you think the numbers are...

[Beefheart]

Yeah, but when Sky buy the rights to all the best Sunday Masses then that 3m will dwindle as people decide to stay home and just watch them on TV instead.

[jaffka]

Yeah, but when Sky buy the rights to all the best Sunday Masses then that 3m will dwindle as people decide to stay home and just watch them on TV instead.

They might have some difficulty in that, click through from 580 to 594.

[Prufrock]

I just don't trust those numbers. When that kidnapping story broke a few weeks back someone on the news said it was estimated that a couple of thousand people were living in slavery in the UK. Well how the shit-fcuk are you working that out?! I'd trust the numbers for football because they do count attendances. I'm not sure that really happens at church does it? I imagine they've taken a sample and then extrapolated, but that can give all sorts of weird and wonderful results.

3m is about 1 in 25 people. I know 2 who go every week. Are you sure, for example, they aren't counting kids at faith schools?

Either way, I'm not really arguing that more or fewer people go to one or the other, just that one suspect sounding survey is a bit scant to be calling it a 'fact'.

[boltonboris]

I think he was talking about Pru World.

I have a butcher I use ( indeed, I have a farmer I stock up with from time to time), I have a local ... I don't go to church but mrs. bobo does, and I have a few good lical restaurants I frequent more readily than using chain groups *except for Nandos.

Middle England, even in Wales, thrives young man. Just because you're all cosmopolitan just presume everyone is.

I would suggest you're the exception in having a farmer!

Town centres used to be full of butcher, baker, florist, a co-op, grocer etc. Now they're all takeaways and all the above is available at Tesco or Asda. My old man was a butcher run out of business by an Asda supermarket, but ironically he ended up working there as in-store butcher later, so I suppose the jobs just move, but there is *something* lost when the local man runs his own business, has a relationship with his customers and so on, ends up in a back-room as a colleague of Wal-Mart.

Of course its customer driven behaviour which has caused all this. Women work so much more now, and with free parking available next to an A-road it's just so much easier to get it all done quickly. Pubs you could probably argue about tax & brewery behaviour.

Exactly. But people are too quick to say it's (insert large company)'s fault. People STILL have a choice.. But more often than not, they choose the place where they can get everything they need in one place.

[boltonboris]

I just don't trust those numbers. When that kidnapping story broke a few weeks back someone on the news said it was estimated that a couple of thousand people were living in slavery in the UK. Well how the shit-fcuk are you working that out?! I'd trust the numbers for football because they do count attendances. I'm not sure that really happens at church does it? I imagine they've taken a sample and then extrapolated, but that can give all sorts of weird and wonderful results.

3m is about 1 in 25 people. I know 2 who go every week. Are you sure, for example, they aren't counting kids at faith schools?

Either way, I'm not really arguing that more or fewer people go to one or the other, just that one suspect sounding survey is a bit scant to be calling it a 'fact'.

Could it not count 1 person who goes 5 times a week as "5 people"

[Bruce Rioja]

Yeah, but when Sky buy the rights to all the best Sunday Masses then that 3m will dwindle as people decide to stay home and just watch them on TV instead.

Ah, but in doing so they'll create a new(er) testament and those that have gone before won't count for anything.

[Athers]

I think he was talking about Pru World.

I have a butcher I use ( indeed, I have a farmer I stock up with from time to time), I have a local ... I don't go to church but mrs. bobo does, and I have a few good lical restaurants I frequent more readily than using chain groups *except for Nandos.

Middle England, even in Wales, thrives young man. Just because you're all cosmopolitan just presume everyone is.

I would suggest you're the exception in having a farmer!

Town centres used to be full of butcher, baker, florist, a co-op, grocer etc. Now they're all takeaways and all the above is available at Tesco or Asda. My old man was a butcher run out of business by an Asda supermarket, but ironically he ended up working there as in-store butcher later, so I suppose the jobs just move, but there is *something* lost when the local man runs his own business, has a relationship with his customers and so on, ends up in a back-room as a colleague of Wal-Mart.

Of course its customer driven behaviour which has caused all this. Women work so much more now, and with free parking available next to an A-road it's just so much easier to get it all done quickly. Pubs you could probably argue about tax & brewery behaviour.

Exactly. But people are too quick to say it's (insert large company)'s fault. People STILL have a choice.. But more often than not, they choose the place where they can get everything they need in one place.

Don't think we're too far away as long as agree there's a difference between "It's all the big firm's fault" and "This has happened and in some ways that's a shame."

[thebish]

I just don't trust those numbers. When that kidnapping story broke a few weeks back someone on the news said it was estimated that a couple of thousand people were living in slavery in the UK. Well how the shit-fcuk are you working that out?! I'd trust the numbers for football because they do count attendances. I'm not sure that really happens at church does it? I imagine they've taken a sample and then extrapolated, but that can give all sorts of weird and wonderful results.

3m is about 1 in 25 people. I know 2 who go every week. Are you sure, for example, they aren't counting kids at faith schools?

Either way, I'm not really arguing that more or fewer people go to one or the other, just that one suspect sounding survey is a bit scant to be calling it a 'fact'.

Could it not count 1 person who goes 5 times a week as "5 people"

no - i don't think so... the figures are notoriously hard to come by - different denominations count up in different ways and on different days... and these figures don't include a shedload of independent churches - the ones that are growing fastest and which include a pretty large mass of people who wouldn't appear in the staid denominational counts...

(also - the premiership figures probably assume all the season ticket holders are actually there...)

[boltonboris]

In that case Bish, I genuinely doubt the validity of those numbers

[thebish]

In that case Bish, I genuinely doubt the validity of those numbers

what do you reckon your best guess of the numbers would be?

i've looked at several ways of counting the average churchgoing population and they all suggest somewhere around the 3million mark (I rounded it down) - give or take a couple of hundred thousand...

they would have to be very massively wrong to bring them down to the more reliable football-going count....

[boltonboris]

I don't know.. But 3 million just seems high to me. I don't think I know anybody who goes to church other than for weddings etc, and I know a lot of people of varying age.

[Lost Leopard Spot]

There's an old bloke with a long white beard somewhere who could take a moment out from auditing sparrows dropping from trees to give us an actual number, but meanwhile here is somebody's analysis on the figure of 3 million church attendees - it comes from 2005 Church Census ( http://www.brin.ac.uk/news/2010/church- ... n-england/ ). Please note that Bolsover in Derbyshire is amongst the lowest areas of church attendance - that relationship to Bolsover being the capital of the People's & Beast's Republic of Derbyshire is entirely coincidental.