Kiev

[Lost Leopard Spot]

Tbh, I don't know what rights Russia has over airbases in the Ukraine. I presume there was an agreement at some point. I see Belbek only described as a Ukrainian airbase. I'm not sure what you mean by territorial sovereignty - the USA does not own the Guantanamo peninsulas - it has a 99 year lease to use Cuban sovereign territory. I thought Suva Bay was in Fiji.

Suva Bay may well be in Fiji, I mean the one in the Phillipines where the American fleet is based - its name (like hers with the hair) obviously escaping me.
Lets's not get into one of those discussions - I mean like Hong Kong was British sovereign territory and not Chinese, despite the fact it was leased. Akrotiri, Guantanamo, Hong Kong, the place in the Philippines - all belong to one country who has leased the sovereignity to another - what is in existence (or was in the case of Hong Kong, and may well have expired in not-Suva Bay) in those cases is the same with the Russian territory in the Crimea.
I'm not, by the way, in favour of what Putin is doing. I'm just aware that there is another side to all this.
Crimea was already, before shit hitting fan time, going to have a plebescite regarding being Ukrainian/Russian.
This has been brought forward (to the end of the month now), and I can well see why Russia would want to 'ensure' that Kiev did not cancel or subvert what is now going to be an overwhelming vote for association with Russia.

If you mean Subic Bay, the Yanks haven't been there for over 20 years. I think the whole base was destroyed by a volcano and abandoned. I think you have over-simplified Hong Kong. The original Hong Kong (it might be called Victoria Island??) was ceded to Britain by China in 1842 in perpetuity following one of the Opium Wars and so became a crown colony and British sovereign territory. Similarly Kowloon was ceded following the 1860 punitive expedition that burnt the Summer palace in Beijing. However, the New Territories were leased in 1898 (following another bit of unpleasantness) for 99 years. When in the 1980s it became evident that China would not renew the lease on the New territories, the British government concluded Hong Kong without them was not viable. They therefore began a negotiated process to return all of Hong Kong to China but with a special status. So only part of Hong Kong was British sovereign territory and China could not legally reclaim it. It was given up in the spirit of amity. New Territories were leased - you lease territory not sovereignty - the same as Guantanamo. Akrotiri is sovereign British territory by a 1960 treaty (it is not leased). Basically you cannot lump all these together as each case can be different.

FFS Monty!
I did say that we don't want to get into one of these - but as you insist...
I said that the bases were Russian sovereign territory
You queried what I meant by that
I gave you a list in order to help you understand
You are now teasing apart the differences in each of those cases
Stop: I understand there are differences between Crimea, Guantanamo, Akrotiri, and Hong Kong (not least of which is that some of them are rendered redundant due to history moving on) I know this. Instead of the differences concentrate on the similarity - the one big similarity that runs through them all - namely: that they are all bits of land carved out of another country where 'ownership' and therefore the laws of the land are in the possession of an outside nation, viz Russia/Ukraine, USA/Cuba, UK/Cyprus, British Empire/China. That then explains what I meant by the soverign territory statement. Ok.
(PS) you will note I refrained at any stage from calling you a Canadian plonker, mainly because William Hague has praised my standing up to your naked aggression and provocation.

[Montreal Wanderer]

Tbh, I don't know what rights Russia has over airbases in the Ukraine. I presume there was an agreement at some point. I see Belbek only described as a Ukrainian airbase. I'm not sure what you mean by territorial sovereignty - the USA does not own the Guantanamo peninsulas - it has a 99 year lease to use Cuban sovereign territory. I thought Suva Bay was in Fiji.

Suva Bay may well be in Fiji, I mean the one in the Phillipines where the American fleet is based - its name (like hers with the hair) obviously escaping me.
Lets's not get into one of those discussions - I mean like Hong Kong was British sovereign territory and not Chinese, despite the fact it was leased. Akrotiri, Guantanamo, Hong Kong, the place in the Philippines - all belong to one country who has leased the sovereignity to another - what is in existence (or was in the case of Hong Kong, and may well have expired in not-Suva Bay) in those cases is the same with the Russian territory in the Crimea.
I'm not, by the way, in favour of what Putin is doing. I'm just aware that there is another side to all this.
Crimea was already, before shit hitting fan time, going to have a plebescite regarding being Ukrainian/Russian.
This has been brought forward (to the end of the month now), and I can well see why Russia would want to 'ensure' that Kiev did not cancel or subvert what is now going to be an overwhelming vote for association with Russia.

If you mean Subic Bay, the Yanks haven't been there for over 20 years. I think the whole base was destroyed by a volcano and abandoned. I think you have over-simplified Hong Kong. The original Hong Kong (it might be called Victoria Island??) was ceded to Britain by China in 1842 in perpetuity following one of the Opium Wars and so became a crown colony and British sovereign territory. Similarly Kowloon was ceded following the 1860 punitive expedition that burnt the Summer palace in Beijing. However, the New Territories were leased in 1898 (following another bit of unpleasantness) for 99 years. When in the 1980s it became evident that China would not renew the lease on the New territories, the British government concluded Hong Kong without them was not viable. They therefore began a negotiated process to return all of Hong Kong to China but with a special status. So only part of Hong Kong was British sovereign territory and China could not legally reclaim it. It was given up in the spirit of amity. New Territories were leased - you lease territory not sovereignty - the same as Guantanamo. Akrotiri is sovereign British territory by a 1960 treaty (it is not leased). Basically you cannot lump all these together as each case can be different.

FFS Monty!
I did say that we don't want to get into one of these - but as you insist...
I said that the bases were Russian sovereign territory
You queried what I meant by that
I gave you a list in order to help you understand
You are now teasing apart the differences in each of those cases
Stop: I understand there are differences between Crimea, Guantanamo, Akrotiri, and Hong Kong (not least of which is that some of them are rendered redundant due to history moving on) I know this. Instead of the differences concentrate on the similarity - the one big similarity that runs through them all - namely: that they are all bits of land carved out of another country where 'ownership' and therefore the laws of the land are in the possession of an outside nation, viz Russia/Ukraine, USA/Cuba, UK/Cyprus, British Empire/China. That then explains what I meant by the soverign territory statement. Ok.
(PS) you will note I refrained at any stage from calling you a Canadian plonker, mainly because William Hague has praised my standing up to your naked aggression and provocation.

We Canadian plonkers understand the difference between freehold and leasehold, although we are a touch shaky on ancient manorial right.

[William the White]

It's not complex. It's not murky. It is very simple. When people, no matter how large your minority is, are a majority in a smaller entity, and the majority in the larger entity are c*nts, then by osmosis, the smaller majority in their own way act like c*nts to the minorities in their area where they are a majority.
Hence Slavs feck Ukrainians who feck Russians who feck Krim Tatars who feck Bulgari who feck badgers.
C*nts the lot of 'em... Just like the IRA and the UVF were c*nts and like how the Afrikaaners And the ANC were c*nts.

Not all people, not all of the time. Ever.

Even in the Rwanda genocide people were being rescued, protected, hidden by the tribal 'enemies'.

It's old news now - given how events are moving - but a two week old poll in Ukraine - i'm told by email, I can't give a source - showed only 7% wanting Ukraine to divide...

That said, Newsnight tonight had some tasty guys, talking about 'problem ethnicities' in the Ukraine, who, when pressed, identified 'the Russians and the Jews'... I'm definitely not saying this is the majority or motivating force in the ukrainian Revolution, but Newsnight's view was that far right forces were growing...

But, they will also be opposed...

I suspect that Ukraine has only a small minority who are c**ts... But they may be truly prickish ones...

Anyway, i'm off to a muslim country in the morning and expect to enjoy it hugely...

I was on about people with causes, not those oppressed by those with the cause. So I refute your argument...they ar c*nts, all of them, all the time. And I'm glad you'll be enjoying your Muslim sojourn. I hope wherever your going they are not quite as vile and c*nt like as most Muslims with a cause, like the Chinese Muslims for instance. Of course they're only a minority, I understand that...just like I understand that the numpties standing around a Kiev square for months on end are equally a minority. One thing they've got in common though is a cause. C*nts.

I had a wonderful time in Turkey. The people were brilliant and friendly and welcoming. I've no idea whether any of them had a cause, though I expect a majority of them had ideas of some kind.

I didn't meet a single c**t in the entire trip. Must have been lucky.

[Lost Leopard Spot]

It's not complex. It's not murky. It is very simple. When people, no matter how large your minority is, are a majority in a smaller entity, and the majority in the larger entity are c*nts, then by osmosis, the smaller majority in their own way act like c*nts to the minorities in their area where they are a majority.
Hence Slavs feck Ukrainians who feck Russians who feck Krim Tatars who feck Bulgari who feck badgers.
C*nts the lot of 'em... Just like the IRA and the UVF were c*nts and like how the Afrikaaners And the ANC were c*nts.

Not all people, not all of the time. Ever.

Even in the Rwanda genocide people were being rescued, protected, hidden by the tribal 'enemies'.

It's old news now - given how events are moving - but a two week old poll in Ukraine - i'm told by email, I can't give a source - showed only 7% wanting Ukraine to divide...

That said, Newsnight tonight had some tasty guys, talking about 'problem ethnicities' in the Ukraine, who, when pressed, identified 'the Russians and the Jews'... I'm definitely not saying this is the majority or motivating force in the ukrainian Revolution, but Newsnight's view was that far right forces were growing...

But, they will also be opposed...

I suspect that Ukraine has only a small minority who are c**ts... But they may be truly prickish ones...

Anyway, i'm off to a muslim country in the morning and expect to enjoy it hugely...

I was on about people with causes, not those oppressed by those with the cause. So I refute your argument...they ar c*nts, all of them, all the time. And I'm glad you'll be enjoying your Muslim sojourn. I hope wherever your going they are not quite as vile and c*nt like as most Muslims with a cause, like the Chinese Muslims for instance. Of course they're only a minority, I understand that...just like I understand that the numpties standing around a Kiev square for months on end are equally a minority. One thing they've got in common though is a cause. C*nts.

I had a wonderful time in Turkey. The people were brilliant and friendly and welcoming. I've no idea whether any of them had a cause, though I expect a majority of them had ideas of some kind.

I didn't meet a single c**t in the entire trip. Must have been lucky.

Kemal Ataturk will be turning in his grave! To have his country described as being Muslim, when it's founded on a purely secular basis, and having abolished the Caliphate (the one thing every Muslim nutter in the universe is agreed on reinventing), and enabling you to go on 'holiday' to that country in the first place: and you call it a Muslim country. Tuttut...Mind you, I'm not surprised, I 'd have put good money on you being an Erdogan fan.

[Montreal Wanderer]

I had a wonderful time in Turkey. The people were brilliant and friendly and welcoming. I've no idea whether any of them had a cause, though I expect a majority of them had ideas of some kind.

I didn't meet a single c**t in the entire trip. Must have been lucky.

Kemal Ataturk will be turning in his grave! To have his country described as being Muslim, when it's founded on a purely secular basis, and having abolished the Caliphate (the one thing every Muslim nutter in the universe is agreed on reinventing), and enabling you to go on 'holiday' to that country in the first place: and you call it a Muslim country. Tuttut...Mind you, I'm not surprised, I 'd have put good money on you being an Erdogan fan.

While Kemal replaced the Caliphate with a secular state and introduced the roman alphabet, there is no doubt that his Turkey was a Muslim country. Indeed it was less accepting of Christians (Greeks, Armenians and Western European merchants) than the Ottoman Empire had been, and his movement was driven by ethnic, and hence Islamic, nationalism. Taxes under Kemal were so prohibitive against Christian merchants that many of them converted to Islam.

Next week my son goes to Turkey (alas to a boring bit between Ankara and Lebanon) for his company. I hope he runs into the kind of Turks WtW met, although he is more worried about where to get a brew.

[William the White]

It's not complex. It's not murky. It is very simple. When people, no matter how large your minority is, are a majority in a smaller entity, and the majority in the larger entity are c*nts, then by osmosis, the smaller majority in their own way act like c*nts to the minorities in their area where they are a majority.
Hence Slavs feck Ukrainians who feck Russians who feck Krim Tatars who feck Bulgari who feck badgers.
C*nts the lot of 'em... Just like the IRA and the UVF were c*nts and like how the Afrikaaners And the ANC were c*nts.

Not all people, not all of the time. Ever.

Even in the Rwanda genocide people were being rescued, protected, hidden by the tribal 'enemies'.

It's old news now - given how events are moving - but a two week old poll in Ukraine - i'm told by email, I can't give a source - showed only 7% wanting Ukraine to divide...

That said, Newsnight tonight had some tasty guys, talking about 'problem ethnicities' in the Ukraine, who, when pressed, identified 'the Russians and the Jews'... I'm definitely not saying this is the majority or motivating force in the ukrainian Revolution, but Newsnight's view was that far right forces were growing...

But, they will also be opposed...

I suspect that Ukraine has only a small minority who are c**ts... But they may be truly prickish ones...

Anyway, i'm off to a muslim country in the morning and expect to enjoy it hugely...

I was on about people with causes, not those oppressed by those with the cause. So I refute your argument...they ar c*nts, all of them, all the time. And I'm glad you'll be enjoying your Muslim sojourn. I hope wherever your going they are not quite as vile and c*nt like as most Muslims with a cause, like the Chinese Muslims for instance. Of course they're only a minority, I understand that...just like I understand that the numpties standing around a Kiev square for months on end are equally a minority. One thing they've got in common though is a cause. C*nts.

I had a wonderful time in Turkey. The people were brilliant and friendly and welcoming. I've no idea whether any of them had a cause, though I expect a majority of them had ideas of some kind.

I didn't meet a single c**t in the entire trip. Must have been lucky.

Kemal Ataturk will be turning in his grave! To have his country described as being Muslim, when it's founded on a purely secular basis, and having abolished the Caliphate (the one thing every Muslim nutter in the universe is agreed on reinventing), and enabling you to go on 'holiday' to that country in the first place: and you call it a Muslim country. Tuttut...Mind you, I'm not surprised, I 'd have put good money on you being an Erdogan fan.

Well there's an awful lot of moslems there, and an awful lot of mosques, and an awful lot of calls to prayer five times a day, and its government proclaims an adherence to islam (while, sensibly ignoring some of its central tenets). So there's a bit of evidence that it's a Moslem country.

As for being an Erdogan fan - you'd have lost money. I'm a socialist, and an atheist, why should I be an Erdogan fan?

[William the White]

Next week my son goes to Turkey (alas to a boring bit between Ankara and Lebanon) for his company. I hope he runs into the kind of Turks WtW met, although he is more worried about where to get a brew.

Does that mean he's concerned he won't be able to find a cup of tea?

He will. In numerous different flavours.

Or he's worried that he won't find a beer? He will - all 'international' brands available, but the most widespread is the Turkish brand - called 'Eres' I think.

[bobo the clown]

^^ Efes, Billy

[Montreal Wanderer]

Next week my son goes to Turkey (alas to a boring bit between Ankara and Lebanon) for his company. I hope he runs into the kind of Turks WtW met, although he is more worried about where to get a brew.

Does that mean he's concerned he won't be able to find a cup of tea?

He will. In numerous different flavours.

Or he's worried that he won't find a beer? He will - all 'international' brands available, but the most widespread is the Turkish brand - called 'Eres' I think.

Ah, yes well as he is North American, a 'brew' is indeed a beer. We had heard new licensing laws had just gone into effect. He has to go to a town called Konya which is probably not exactly a tourist Mecca catering to foreign tastes. Still it may be better than the two weeks he spent in Oakey, Queensland.

[Little Green Man]

He has to go to a town called Konya which is probably not exactly a tourist Mecca catering to foreign tastes.

Full of redheads is Konya by all accounts (ie one). Not been myself but the only person I've met from Konya had red hair and said he there were a lot like him back home.

Very pleasant person he was, as has been pretty much every person I've met from Turkey. I guess I must have been lucky to have missed all the scimitar-wielding fundamentalists.

If a beer can't be found, the food should more than make up for it.

[William the White]

Next week my son goes to Turkey (alas to a boring bit between Ankara and Lebanon) for his company. I hope he runs into the kind of Turks WtW met, although he is more worried about where to get a brew.

Does that mean he's concerned he won't be able to find a cup of tea?

He will. In numerous different flavours.

Or he's worried that he won't find a beer? He will - all 'international' brands available, but the most widespread is the Turkish brand - called 'Eres' I think.

Ah, yes well as he is North American, a 'brew' is indeed a beer. We had heard new licensing laws had just gone into effect. He has to go to a town called Konya which is probably not exactly a tourist Mecca catering to foreign tastes. Still it may be better than the two weeks he spent in Oakey, Queensland.

Right - but Turkish tastes in great numbers - involve production and consumption of alcohol. And Turkish wine is very good, and the industry is expanding.

That said - I'd say a large majority of Turkish cafes even in Istanbul were non-alcohol. But that left many who offered a good range of good stuff...

Unless Konya is very small he'll be ok... but the food, as LGM intimates... is outstanding.

BTW - did you remember that Lancashire 'brew' meaning tea? And, indeed, I seem to remember, a hill...

[boltonboris]

This is the forum police. Put the search engine down and step away from the computer.

[Montreal Wanderer]

Next week my son goes to Turkey (alas to a boring bit between Ankara and Lebanon) for his company. I hope he runs into the kind of Turks WtW met, although he is more worried about where to get a brew.

Does that mean he's concerned he won't be able to find a cup of tea?

He will. In numerous different flavours.

Or he's worried that he won't find a beer? He will - all 'international' brands available, but the most widespread is the Turkish brand - called 'Eres' I think.

Ah, yes well as he is North American, a 'brew' is indeed a beer. We had heard new licensing laws had just gone into effect. He has to go to a town called Konya which is probably not exactly a tourist Mecca catering to foreign tastes. Still it may be better than the two weeks he spent in Oakey, Queensland.

Right - but Turkish tastes in great numbers - involve production and consumption of alcohol. And Turkish wine is very good, and the industry is expanding.

That said - I'd say a large majority of Turkish cafes even in Istanbul were non-alcohol. But that left many who offered a good range of good stuff...

Unless Konya is very small he'll be ok... but the food, as LGM intimates... is outstanding.

BTW - did you remember that Lancashire 'brew' meaning tea? And, indeed, I seem to remember, a hill...

I remember but did not think of it at the time. I had also forgotten (until some years ago on this Forum) that tea is a meal as well as a drink (mind you in my house it was always a drink unless prefaced by 'afternoon'). According to Wiki Konya is the 7th largest town in Turkey - all I know is it has an airbase where my son has to work.

[Dujon]

And what's your son going on about with Oakey, my fine upstanding Canadian cousin? I'm going to take a guess and suggest that he worked at the air base which is just out of town. Unless he was confined by the base's 'local rules' to within the perimeter of the base then what was the problem. Oakey itself is on the doorstep; Toowoomba only 20-odd kilometres away and Brisbane a mere 150 kilometres distant.

Blimey some people are fussy.

[Montreal Wanderer]

And what's your son going on about with Oakey, my fine upstanding Canadian cousin? I'm going to take a guess and suggest that he worked at the air base which is just out of town. Unless he was confined by the base's 'local rules' to within the perimeter of the base then what was the problem. Oakey itself is on the doorstep; Toowoomba only 20-odd kilometres away and Brisbane a mere 150 kilometres distant.

Blimey some people are fussy.

He told me that Oakey had been a one-horse town but the horse had died fifty years ago. He was at the base but slept at Toowoomba (a hot spot only in relation to Oakey). He much preferred NSW (Richmond airbase), but then so do you I suspect.

[Lost Leopard Spot]

Crimean referendum. Two words that show the sheer hypocrisy of the West: Kosovo, Tibet.
Feck off Kerry, feck off Hague.

[Abdoulaye's Twin]

Crimean referendum. Two words that show the sheer hypocrisy of the West: Kosovo, Tibet.
Feck off Kerry, feck off Hague.

I agree, with a proviso...

This referendum is not being carried out in a proper manner. A reasonable amount of time for both cases to be made has not been allowed for. Things like ballot papers are printed on regular paper, meaning forgery/abuse is almost certain. the very people administrating the referendum have already voted to leave the Ukraine. Finally, it is being carried out under what is a Russian occupation.

It isn't too far behind a North Korean one candidate election.

[bobo the clown]

... all the above is well and good.

What does anyone suggest is done about it ?

WWIII is on the cards if the Russians feel aggressed and the US have spent much of the Obama years wanting not to invest militarily in Europe. This has suited many over this side of the pond .... philosophically at least. The EU haven't the systems, the collective nouse or the bottle to do anything other than talk about stuff.

Putin's taking the piss but there isn't a blind thing the West can, or will, do about it.

[Athers]

Putin has blocked a load of opposition websites including Navalny and Kasparov. He's a dictator plain and simple. The only reason he can't have them killed is their fame.

[William the White]

... all the above is well and good.

What does anyone suggest is done about it ?

WWIII is on the cards if the Russians feel aggressed and the US have spent much of the Obama years wanting not to invest militarily in Europe. This has suited many over this side of the pond .... philosophically at least. The EU haven't the systems, the collective nouse or the bottle to do anything other than talk about stuff.

Putin's taking the piss but there isn't a blind thing the West can, or will, do about it.

I think you are wrong with both those assertions. There will be a range of diplomatic and economic sanctions considered and some will be acted on. Also it certainly isn't impossible to envisage the West arming the Ukrainian forces with up to date, non-nuclear weaponry.

Military action by American or European troops at this stage is unthinkable.

A military invasion of Ukraine, other than Crimea, however, would change the game significantly.

These are dangerous times. Very.