Today I'm angry about.....

[bobo the clown]

I don't dispute they did 30 or so years ago.

But now? Now they're just paper tigers.
In that sense, the "unions for the noughties" (if you will ) is/are the bankers and the banking industry. Even ruddy Mervyn King (in a cheap attempt to save face) said as much last week.

Really, really, really ... they are not. Honestly. If you've never listened or agreed with one word I've ever said, please believe this. It IS what I do for a living & I see it on a daily basis. I can't give details here, but this misconception, which is widely held, is so wrong.

[TANGODANCER]

Apparently Scotland Yard has banned the use of the word "blacklist" amidst fears of it being seen as racist. There are suggestions to use green/red list instead. Talk about making racism where none exists.

I spoke to a friend of mine who is a high ranking officer in the Met. Police. No such directive exists he said, and they all use interactive white boards now.
JSL

Bit racist, mate.

And there's the daft rub of it all Verbal. Describing something by its colour has nothing to do with anything except an attempt at accuracy. No doubt some idiot will pop up in the future asking "Why just whiteboards?" and claim just that..racism. There are some very odd people in the world who just can't seem to be rational in anything. What happened to common sense?

hmmm... true with blackboard - but with your original claim around "blacklist"... I very much doubt that anyone will "pop up" in the future and complain that whiteboards amount to racism - in just the same way that the met have NOT banned the word blacklist.

people repeating all this nonsense - which is very rarely actually true - is the problem...

What claim was that exactly thebish? I just posted what the article said and used the word "apparently". I made no claim whatsoever . The whiteboard remark was so tongue in cheek obvious I'm surprised you bothered mentioning it.

[Lord Kangana]

I don't dispute they did 30 or so years ago.

But now? Now they're just paper tigers.
In that sense, the "unions for the noughties" (if you will ) is/are the bankers and the banking industry. Even ruddy Mervyn King (in a cheap attempt to save face) said as much last week.

Really, really, really ... they are not. Honestly. If you've never listened or agreed with one word I've ever said, please believe this. It IS what I do for a living & I see it on a daily basis. I can't give details here, but this misconception, which is widely held, is so wrong.

They are still a secondary threat to our economy. That much is completely beyond dispute.

[thebish]

What claim was that exactly thebish? I just posted what the article said and used the word "apparently". I made no claim whatsoever . The whiteboard remark was so tongue in cheek obvious I'm surprised you bothered mentioning it.

sorry - I thought you were claiming to be angry about it and bemoaning the world's lack of common sense?

[Annoyed Grunt]

Just being a mard arse to be honest.......need a new job, this one is ridiculous and getting me down. Thanks for asking though.

Don't know what it is that you do but perhaps now is not the best time to be moving around, fella.
.

Insurance....just selling the stuff.

True, it isn't but I am definitely going to look...can't take much more at that place...it's getting beyond a joke.

[Harry Genshaw]

I don't dispute they did 30 or so years ago.

But now? Now they're just paper tigers.
In that sense, the "unions for the noughties" (if you will ) is/are the bankers and the banking industry. Even ruddy Mervyn King (in a cheap attempt to save face) said as much last week.

Really, really, really ... they are not. Honestly. If you've never listened or agreed with one word I've ever said, please believe this. It IS what I do for a living & I see it on a daily basis. I can't give details here, but this misconception, which is widely held, is so wrong.

Surprises me that Bobo. I was shop steward at our place for a few years and I certainly felt like a paper tiger when representing members, due mainly to us having quite an apathetic membership and little bargaining power. We did have quite a fair and reasonable management team to be fair, but when they were after someone they usually got em.

[Il Pirate]

Up to now, my union is stopping those robbing, bastard tories in charge, from making me pay more for my pension, making me work a damn lot longer untill I can get my pension and then getting a reduced pension for doing so. I'm proud to be a union member. Always have been, always will be.
Never forget Tolpuddle.

[BWFC_Insane]

Aye heaven forbid that the workers stand up against the billionaires. Who knows if they are not careful that nice Mr Osborne might have to lower the top rate of income tax again.

[Bruce Rioja]

Aye heaven forbid that the workers stand up against the billionaires. Who knows if they are not careful that nice Mr Osborne might have to lower the top rate of income tax again.

And those that earn less and work many more hours per week will have to work for longer to fund your earlier retirement plan and sumptuous pension, eh, Brother? Yeah What an utter prick!

[William the White]

Aye heaven forbid that the workers stand up against the billionaires. Who knows if they are not careful that nice Mr Osborne might have to lower the top rate of income tax again.

So right... What gets me is the grotesqueness of the divide and rule gambit the tories are running with - it amounts to 'that ruthless pile of shit called capitalism is not going to fund you poor bastard pensioners any more - though it is going to fund every single, greedy, cream licking fat cat in your company, you bet - so let's now have a go at the public sector workers and do for their pensions also' - so impoverish the lot apart from - oh, surprise... the grabbing, vomit-inducing posh boys best mates...

And people buy this, turning on public sector workers (as though we could do without them) rather than the pricks who caused and are profiting still from the crisis...

[Bruce Rioja]

Aye heaven forbid that the workers stand up against the billionaires. Who knows if they are not careful that nice Mr Osborne might have to lower the top rate of income tax again.

So right... What gets me is the grotesqueness of the divide and rule gambit the tories are running with - it amounts to 'that ruthless pile of shit called capitalism is not going to fund you poor bastard pensioners any more - though it is going to fund every single, greedy, cream licking fat cat in your company, you bet - so let's now have a go at the public sector workers and do for their pensions also' - so impoverish the lot apart from - oh, surprise... the grabbing, vomit-inducing posh boys best mates...

And people buy this, turning on public sector workers (as though we could do without them) rather than the pricks who caused and are profiting still from the crisis...

Aye, every Tory voting private sector worker's a billionaire then. I expect this prickishness off of BWFC-I, I hope ( clearly in vain) for better off of you!

[Bruce Rioja]

Aye heaven forbid that the workers stand up against the billionaires. Who knows if they are not careful that nice Mr Osborne might have to lower the top rate of income tax again.

So right... What gets me is the grotesqueness of the divide and rule gambit the tories are running with - it amounts to 'that ruthless pile of shit called capitalism is not going to fund you poor bastard pensioners any more - though it is going to fund every single, greedy, cream licking fat cat in your company, you bet - so let's now have a go at the public sector workers and do for their pensions also' - so impoverish the lot apart from - oh, surprise... the grabbing, vomit-inducing posh boys best mates...

And people buy this, turning on public sector workers (as though we could do without them) rather than the pricks who caused and are profiting still from the crisis...

Aye, every Tory voting private sector worker's a billionaire then. I expect this prickishness off of BWFC-I, I hope ( clearly in vain) for better off of you!

[William the White]

Aye heaven forbid that the workers stand up against the billionaires. Who knows if they are not careful that nice Mr Osborne might have to lower the top rate of income tax again.

So right... What gets me is the grotesqueness of the divide and rule gambit the tories are running with - it amounts to 'that ruthless pile of shit called capitalism is not going to fund you poor bastard pensioners any more - though it is going to fund every single, greedy, cream licking fat cat in your company, you bet - so let's now have a go at the public sector workers and do for their pensions also' - so impoverish the lot apart from - oh, surprise... the grabbing, vomit-inducing posh boys best mates...

And people buy this, turning on public sector workers (as though we could do without them) rather than the pricks who caused and are profiting still from the crisis...

Aye, every Tory voting private sector worker's a billionaire then. I expect this prickishness off of BWFC-I, I hope ( clearly in vain) for better off of you!

Well, Bruce, I'm obviously sorry to disappoint and surprise you...

You didn't surprise me... And I didn't expect any better from you... Shall we discuss over a pint in the No Name?

[Bruce Rioja]

Aye heaven forbid that the workers stand up against the billionaires. Who knows if they are not careful that nice Mr Osborne might have to lower the top rate of income tax again.

So right... What gets me is the grotesqueness of the divide and rule gambit the tories are running with - it amounts to 'that ruthless pile of shit called capitalism is not going to fund you poor bastard pensioners any more - though it is going to fund every single, greedy, cream licking fat cat in your company, you bet - so let's now have a go at the public sector workers and do for their pensions also' - so impoverish the lot apart from - oh, surprise... the grabbing, vomit-inducing posh boys best mates...

And people buy this, turning on public sector workers (as though we could do without them) rather than the pricks who caused and are profiting still from the crisis...

Aye, every Tory voting private sector worker's a billionaire then. I expect this prickishness off of BWFC-I, I hope ( clearly in vain) for better off of you!

Well, Bruce, I'm obviously sorry to disappoint and surprise you...

You didn't surprise me... And I didn't expect any better from you... Shall we discuss over a pint in the No Name?

[BWFC_Insane]

Aye heaven forbid that the workers stand up against the billionaires. Who knows if they are not careful that nice Mr Osborne might have to lower the top rate of income tax again.

So right... What gets me is the grotesqueness of the divide and rule gambit the tories are running with - it amounts to 'that ruthless pile of shit called capitalism is not going to fund you poor bastard pensioners any more - though it is going to fund every single, greedy, cream licking fat cat in your company, you bet - so let's now have a go at the public sector workers and do for their pensions also' - so impoverish the lot apart from - oh, surprise... the grabbing, vomit-inducing posh boys best mates...

And people buy this, turning on public sector workers (as though we could do without them) rather than the pricks who caused and are profiting still from the crisis...

Aye, every Tory voting private sector worker's a billionaire then. I expect this prickishness off of BWFC-I, I hope ( clearly in vain) for better off of you!

Thing is Bruce, people that in many cases don't make very much money are being told they have to work longer, contribute more and get less in their pensions....

Why shouldn't they complain about that? I don't think any single one of the people who went on strike yesterday would argue that because we're living longer there might have to be some adjustments, but their pensions were renegotiated in 2008/9 I think, and they were prepared to renegotiate again. I think that the government have gone after them for idealogical reasons and thats why they perceive it to be unfair. Many of the schemes are actually believed to be self funding and the government for that reason refuse to have them fully valued.

At the end of the day I've not got a public sector pension and I think that whilst many who don't work in the public sector feel there is an "unfairness" I'm not entirely sure they consider the full situation.

If you are a nurse or a teaching assistant, or a teacher then 80-90% of your employment opportunities are within the public sector. They don't have a "free job market" to trade their skills off like the private sector employees would. If you're a really good nurse ultimately you can only earn whatever the national salary is for your band of nurse. You can't be headhunted or offered more money elsewhere cos you're good. Ultimately we need these people, and generally need them to be as good as possible at their jobs. So I think that attacking their standard of living cos the private sector doesn't offer the same, is short sighted in my view.

Life is tough but I don't think its entirely fair criticising people who are prepared to stand up for themselves in difficult times. Many of the unions who've been on strike over the past 12 months, have never called their members out before. So I also think branding them all as "militant communists" is fair either!

[CrazyHorse]

Well I'd like to offer my thanks once again to the strikers. Those public sector wages that were saved will chip another chunk off the debt, meaning my future required contribution has now reduced.

Please, go on strike more often brothers and we'll soon get this deficit paid off.

[bobo the clown]

I was only pointing out that the view that trade unions were largely a thing of the past and, indeed mere "paper tigers" was in fact a misconception.

The points about the public sector pensions & defence of them, while a worthy discussion are a separate issue ... albeit the sector's unions are very vociferous indeed ... Showing my point, to an extent I suppose.

In the 'industrial' and private sectors however, be aware that the current trends are very much with increasing beligerence and militancy. The thing many won't appreciate is that the fact although there's a financial crisis & many Companies are on their knees is not affecting the attitudes of workers where things are going quite (even very) well. I am witnessing, daily, attitudes remaniscent of the 70's. To a point where I fear that any true recovery would be difficult to sustain as any successful company as ripe for attack by increasingly miltant union leadership.

You may, dependant upon your general view od such matters say "fair enough". Fine. But don't pretend the average worker views the bigger picture. They look after themselves. A recent fall-out was about a Comany's preference to recruit more employees rather than have the current workforce work longer & longer hours. The workforce simply wanted more hours (& hence money) and balloted for action on that.

Socialism in action ? Not really.

[BWFC_Insane]

I was only pointing out that the view that trade unions were largely a thing of the past and, indeed mere "paper tigers" was in fact a misconception.

The points about the public sector pensions & defence of them, while a worthy discussion are a separate issue ... albeit the sector's unions are very vociferous indeed ... Showing my point, to an extent I suppose.

In the 'industrial' and private sectors however, be aware that the current trends are very much with increasing beligerence and militancy. The thing many won't appreciate is that the fact although there's a financial crisis & many Companies are on their knees is not affecting the attitudes of workers where things are going quite (even very) well. I am witnessing, daily, attitudes remaniscent of the 70's. To a point where I fear that any true recovery would be difficult to sustain as any successful company as ripe for attack by increasingly miltant union leadership.

You may, dependant upon your general view od such matters say "fair enough". Fine. But don't pretend the average worker views the bigger picture. They look after themselves. A recent fall-out was about a Comany's preference to recruit more employees rather than have the current workforce work longer & longer hours. The workforce simply wanted more hours (& hence money) and balloted for action on that.

Socialism in action ? Not really.

Contrast that with the latest reports on major companies tactics to avoid corporation tax, the huge bonuses paid to directors etc and you can see why "lower paid" workers are a bit disenfranchised at the minute.

You're liable to fight a bit more when its the difference between a meal for your kids or not than you are when its merely the inconvenience of losing one of your 4 annual foreign holidays.

What really shocks me is how the Tories have shifted the blame for the financial crisis from the rich multimillionaire bankers (whoo's greed did actually cause this....) to poorly paid workers (in the public sector but also the private) and people are desperate to lap it up....

[Hoboh]

I was only pointing out that the view that trade unions were largely a thing of the past and, indeed mere "paper tigers" was in fact a misconception.

The points about the public sector pensions & defence of them, while a worthy discussion are a separate issue ... albeit the sector's unions are very vociferous indeed ... Showing my point, to an extent I suppose.

In the 'industrial' and private sectors however, be aware that the current trends are very much with increasing beligerence and militancy. The thing many won't appreciate is that the fact although there's a financial crisis & many Companies are on their knees is not affecting the attitudes of workers where things are going quite (even very) well. I am witnessing, daily, attitudes remaniscent of the 70's. To a point where I fear that any true recovery would be difficult to sustain as any successful company as ripe for attack by increasingly miltant union leadership.

You may, dependant upon your general view od such matters say "fair enough". Fine. But don't pretend the average worker views the bigger picture. They look after themselves. A recent fall-out was about a Comany's preference to recruit more employees rather than have the current workforce work longer & longer hours. The workforce simply wanted more hours (& hence money) and balloted for action on that.

Socialism in action ? Not really.

Contrast that with the latest reports on major companies tactics to avoid corporation tax, the huge bonuses paid to directors etc and you can see why "lower paid" workers are a bit disenfranchised at the minute.

You're liable to fight a bit more when its the difference between a meal for your kids or not than you are when its merely the inconvenience of losing one of your 4 annual foreign holidays.

What really shocks me is how the Tories have shifted the blame for the financial crisis from the rich multimillionaire bankers (whoo's greed did actually cause this....) to poorly paid workers (in the public sector but also the private) and people are desperate to lap it up....

What the real 'shock' about all this is the fact Labour bailed out private companies. I suspect most taxpayers would not have supported that just like they don't support public funds getting out of hand and placing a further burden on taxes.
To cut to the chase I reckon the vast majority of people want to keep most of what they earn to spend how they want and if the tories play that card who can blame them?

[BWFC_Insane]

I was only pointing out that the view that trade unions were largely a thing of the past and, indeed mere "paper tigers" was in fact a misconception.

The points about the public sector pensions & defence of them, while a worthy discussion are a separate issue ... albeit the sector's unions are very vociferous indeed ... Showing my point, to an extent I suppose.

In the 'industrial' and private sectors however, be aware that the current trends are very much with increasing beligerence and militancy. The thing many won't appreciate is that the fact although there's a financial crisis & many Companies are on their knees is not affecting the attitudes of workers where things are going quite (even very) well. I am witnessing, daily, attitudes remaniscent of the 70's. To a point where I fear that any true recovery would be difficult to sustain as any successful company as ripe for attack by increasingly miltant union leadership.

You may, dependant upon your general view od such matters say "fair enough". Fine. But don't pretend the average worker views the bigger picture. They look after themselves. A recent fall-out was about a Comany's preference to recruit more employees rather than have the current workforce work longer & longer hours. The workforce simply wanted more hours (& hence money) and balloted for action on that.

Socialism in action ? Not really.

Contrast that with the latest reports on major companies tactics to avoid corporation tax, the huge bonuses paid to directors etc and you can see why "lower paid" workers are a bit disenfranchised at the minute.

You're liable to fight a bit more when its the difference between a meal for your kids or not than you are when its merely the inconvenience of losing one of your 4 annual foreign holidays.

What really shocks me is how the Tories have shifted the blame for the financial crisis from the rich multimillionaire bankers (whoo's greed did actually cause this....) to poorly paid workers (in the public sector but also the private) and people are desperate to lap it up....

What the real 'shock' about all this is the fact Labour bailed out private companies. I suspect most taxpayers would not have supported that just like they don't support public funds getting out of hand and placing a further burden on taxes.
To cut to the chase I reckon the vast majority of people want to keep most of what they earn to spend how they want and if the tories play that card who can blame them?

Well yeah but most people want a balance between reliable, efficient and effective public services and taxation.

I don't think many would not be happy to pitch up in a hospitals A&E ward to find it dirty and to be greeted by a half interested, poorly trained triage nurse turning them away only later for them to keel over and die.

End of the day the public sector workers are trying to get along just the same. There has to be a balance and the Tories are just trying to hammer them, whilst rewarding the richest in society with tax cuts.

Simply not right.