The Politics Thread

[Lost Leopard Spot]

It won't.

[Burnden Paddock]

Can we appeal?

[Worthy4England]

So lemmie get this right. We're going to freeze public servants pay, because we're still in the days of austerity. Except some public servants, that already get paid more than most of the rest of the public servants, and we're going to give them 11%.

Bent fcukers.

[Lost Leopard Spot]

So lemmie get this right. We're going to freeze public servants pay, because we're still in the days of austerity. Except some public servants, that already get paid more than most of the rest of the public servants, and we're going to give them 11%.

Bent fcukers.

I could not have expressed my opinion more succinctly. Bent fckers indeed. And those public servants who get 11% are the same public servants that freeze the other public servants wages, and because it's the one's who get 11%'s fault that we are deep in austerity. Bent, bent bent fckers.

[Bruce Rioja]

So lemmie get this right. We're going to freeze public servants pay, because we're still in the days of austerity. Except some public servants, that already get paid more than most of the rest of the public servants, and we're going to give them 11%.

Bent fcukers.

I could not have expressed my opinion more succinctly. Bent fckers indeed. And those public servants who get 11% are the same public servants that freeze the other public servants wages, and because it's the one's who get 11%'s fault that we are deep in austerity. Bent, bent bent fckers.

Calm down, Dear. It hasn't been passed, and may well not be.

[Lost Leopard Spot]

So lemmie get this right. We're going to freeze public servants pay, because we're still in the days of austerity. Except some public servants, that already get paid more than most of the rest of the public servants, and we're going to give them 11%.

Bent fcukers.

I could not have expressed my opinion more succinctly. Bent fckers indeed. And those public servants who get 11% are the same public servants that freeze the other public servants wages, and because it's the one's who get 11%'s fault that we are deep in austerity. Bent, bent bent fckers.

Calm down, Dear. It hasn't been passed, and may well not be.

It was my understanding, that it being an 'independent' commission, that the government has no say in the matter - it goes to a vote of the whole house, un-whipped. Let's guess, I think they'll vote YES.

[Harry Genshaw]

I imagine the leaders and other prominent MPs will make a fuss while the matter is in the public eye, but it will be introduced to less fuss later on. I seem to recall a pay body a few years ago proposing an inflation busting increase for the Police (iirc) and Parliament blocking it. I doubt they'll fight this proposal with as much gusto.

What makes it worse imo, is the news out today about most people in poverty in the UK are actually in work. There's probably a good argument about what really constitutes poverty in this country, but when those trying to do the right thing by working for a living, are worse off than many that don't it's a poor, poor do. Time for a sizeable increase in the minimum wage - say 11%?

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[Bruce Rioja]

but when those trying to do the right thing by working for a living, are worse off than many that don't it's a poor, poor do. Time for a sizeable increase in the minimum wage - say 11%?

Is it feck. It's time for reductions in benefits and a further review as to what constitutes a plausible claim. How would you fund this increase to the minimum wage, Harry?

[Worthy4England]

but when those trying to do the right thing by working for a living, are worse off than many that don't it's a poor, poor do. Time for a sizeable increase in the minimum wage - say 11%?

Is it feck. It's time for reductions in benefits and a further review as to what constitutes a plausible claim. How would you fund this increase to the minimum wage, Harry?

I seem to recall economic armeggedon being predicted when the National Minimum Wage was introduced. It didn't happen.

11% on NMW would equate to a maximum of 69p an hour on a base maximum of £6.31. That's hardly a decent wage @ £259 a week for 37 hours. It's a fecking pittance.

[Bruce Rioja]

but when those trying to do the right thing by working for a living, are worse off than many that don't it's a poor, poor do. Time for a sizeable increase in the minimum wage - say 11%?

Is it feck. It's time for reductions in benefits and a further review as to what constitutes a plausible claim. How would you fund this increase to the minimum wage, Harry?

I seem to recall economic armeggedon being predicted when the National Minimum Wage was introduced. It didn't happen.

11% on NMW would equate to a maximum of 69p an hour on a base maximum of £6.31. That's hardly a decent wage @ £259 a week for 37 hours. It's a fecking pittance.

Probably is to those that live as sumptuously as you.

The market pays in accordance, and you know that.

[Worthy4England]

but when those trying to do the right thing by working for a living, are worse off than many that don't it's a poor, poor do. Time for a sizeable increase in the minimum wage - say 11%?

Is it feck. It's time for reductions in benefits and a further review as to what constitutes a plausible claim. How would you fund this increase to the minimum wage, Harry?

I seem to recall economic armeggedon being predicted when the National Minimum Wage was introduced. It didn't happen.

11% on NMW would equate to a maximum of 69p an hour on a base maximum of £6.31. That's hardly a decent wage @ £259 a week for 37 hours. It's a fecking pittance.

Probably is to those that live as sumptuously as you.

The market pays in accordance, and you know that.

Sly pokes aside, because I don't reckon you've seen £259 a week either for a while, that's the absolute maximum, the rates for under 21's are lower again.

The market pays in accordance with an absolute minimum, which we were promised would cause economic meltdown prior to its introduction. Increasing it 10/11% will cause no noticable difference in the medium to longer term, and you know that.

[Harry Genshaw]

but when those trying to do the right thing by working for a living, are worse off than many that don't it's a poor, poor do. Time for a sizeable increase in the minimum wage - say 11%?

Is it feck. It's time for reductions in benefits and a further review as to what constitutes a plausible claim. How would you fund this increase to the minimum wage, Harry?

I was joking re 11%, but no reason why there cant be a decent increase (say 5%).
I've no problem with benefits being reassessed, particularly the shifting of folk who can work off Incapacity Benefit onto JSA but I don't see the argument for reducing the overall level of benefit paid. Not sure what you mean re a plausible claim (unless its sickness) as alleged fraud counts for very little

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

but when those trying to do the right thing by working for a living, are worse off than many that don't it's a poor, poor do. Time for a sizeable increase in the minimum wage - say 11%?

Is it feck. It's time for reductions in benefits and a further review as to what constitutes a plausible claim. How would you fund this increase to the minimum wage, Harry?

I seem to recall economic armeggedon being predicted when the National Minimum Wage was introduced. It didn't happen.

People always say this about predicted 'Armageddon' and, not having been cognizant of the issues at the time, I don't get it.

It seems to me the minimum wage was introduced at a low rate in an improving jobs market.

It would only have a distorting effect if it were set at a level significantly above the market level.

To put it another way... if the minimum wage were £100/hr, that would be seriously damaging. Somewhere between £0 and £100 there is an amount at which it becomes 'harmful'.

The debate is surely not whether a minimum wage has the potential to be a bad thing, but at what level it becomes a bad thing?

The 'Armageddon' line of conversation always seem hopelessly simplistic - perhaps that's because those arguing against a minimum wage at the time were.

And another thing... 'Armageddon' suggests something sudden, which doesn't sound likely to me. What does seem likely is that if the cost of labour goes up, with or without minimum wage, then businesses will look for substitutes such as mechanisation and offshore outsourcing. Both of these things take time, of course, and would be part of a slow, drip-drip process, rather than an Armageddon event. Have both not happened on a very large scale since 1997?

[Worthy4England]

Outsourcing was happening on a large scale before 1997 - often there isn't a good enough business case to offshore very low paid jobs, the labour arbitrage isn't a panacea, and I suspect quite a lot of the jobs that attract NMW are not suitable for offshoring. The predictions of economic armeggedon were largely from the Conservative party, who were whipped to vote against - and certainly not at a figure of £100 (£3.90). A lot of Unions were against it too, as they believed they'd lose membership, if the notion of collective bargaining was taken away...

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

The predictions of economic armeggedon were largely from the Conservative party, who were whipped to vote against - and certainly not at a figure of £100 (£3.90).

How did the votes go at the time? As in, were there votes on different amounts?

Serious question - what would your preferred minimum wage be and at what level do you think it would be harmful to the economy overall?

[Worthy4England]

The predictions of economic armeggedon were largely from the Conservative party, who were whipped to vote against - and certainly not at a figure of £100 (£3.90).

How did the votes go at the time? As in, were there voted on different amounts?

Serious question - what would your preferred minimum wage be and at what level do you think it would be harmful to the economy overall?

Tories were whipped to vote against and all did. Lab and Lib Dems were whipped to vote for and all did. From what I recall a range of values around the £3.90 mark were discussed in the White Paper.

Within retail there are a lot of low margin businesses, but subdivided in that are fmcg organisations, so if wage increases occurred, I'm still not going to order from abroad instead of a supermarket etc..so as a consumer I'd pick up the tab anyhow.

Given the average wage is around £14.80, then we're currently at about 40% of that. I don't have any analyses of the sensitivity, but I suspect a 10/11% increase wouldn't break the economy.

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

Given the average wage is around £14.80, then we're currently at about 40% of that. I don't have any analyses of the sensitivity, but I suspect a 10/11% increase wouldn't break the economy.

That's not what I asked!

[Worthy4England]

Given the average wage is around £14.80, then we're currently at about 40% of that. I don't have any analyses of the sensitivity, but I suspect a 10/11% increase wouldn't break the economy.

That's not what I asked!

I know. As I said, I don't have anything to show where the likely breaking point would be, but that wasn't what I was saying in the first place. My contention was that NMW + 10% wouldn't be the breaking point.

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

Given the average wage is around £14.80, then we're currently at about 40% of that. I don't have any analyses of the sensitivity, but I suspect a 10/11% increase wouldn't break the economy.

That's not what I asked!

I know. As I said, I don't have anything to show where the likely breaking point would be, but that wasn't what I was saying in the first place. My contention was that NMW + 10% wouldn't be the breaking point.

Ok, so you must have an instinct in mind in order to be able to say that?!

[Athers]

As a general point I think there is a good case for MPs being paid more headline salary, but restricting some of:

a) overgenerous expenses
b) pensions
c) other incomes

but the 11% and the tea and biscuits are the headlines understandably in this climate.