The Politics Thread

[Hoboh]

So, what you're really saying is you're scared shitless of a referendum because it may result in something you don't want. Again showing you are anti democratic. That's fine, really, but don't fail to see it for what it is.

How on earth have you come to that conclusion?

The polls suggest people don't want to leave the EU, and IMO an election result giving UKIP, a single-issue party in an election focussed on that issue that they're a single issue party about, around 30% of the vote would also suggest people don't want to leave the EU.

Given that ^ I'm saying it seems a waste of money to be having one.

Let's say next month UKIP actually get 45% of the vote, well then yeah fine, that looks like there's a chance an out vote would win, so let's have it.

With two thirds of feck all of the electorate not bothered with general elections lets cancel those on cost grounds, we may be left with the brick chucking unwashed socialists in permanent charge, Oh hang on it could be those nasty Eton Boys and the Clegg puppet
You, just like the Political wide boys that decent socialists are supposed to be lining up against walls in the revolution, are just shit scared of losing!!!

[Hoboh]

So, what you're really saying is you're scared shitless of a referendum because it may result in something you don't want. Again showing you are anti democratic. That's fine, really, but don't fail to see it for what it is.

I think referendums are a crap idea - we aren't that kind of democracy - we are a parliamentary democracy which is a very watered down version of what most people think of when they use the word "democratic"...

Well lets bring back mass civil unrest, or adopt one last great European way,

Revolution!

[Hoboh]

^^ then have a fckg referendum. Simple enough.

AV referendum cost £75m. No point spending that if there's no reasonable prospect of success.

Then why waste it on the Jocks? just to appease that Salmond prick!
Why give a shit about any sort of devolution to the northern bits of England you brick chuckers are always spouting about a referendum on?
Why fecking bother with any elections?
Why just not put me in charge, I promise you will get the best available marksman.

[Bruce Rioja]

^^ then have a fckg referendum. Simple enough.

AV referendum cost £75m. No point spending that if there's no reasonable prospect of success.

Then why waste it on the Jocks? just to appease that Salmond prick!

If Salmond really wants independence for Scotland, he'd have invited us to vote on it too.

[Prufrock]

^^ then have a fckg referendum. Simple enough.

why, though? why this issue and not another? we elect political parties to make decisions... that's how it works...

Because the political parties have a proclivity to ignore what we want and do the opposite of what they say they will do when trying to get elected.

When the British people agreed to joining a trading club in the 70s, no one voted for what the EU has become. It is like agreeing to go to a poker night next week and once you're in and taken your coat off you discover it's swingers party and you're not allowed to leave. Some folk might like the party, but others may not agree with it. Let the people have a say.

As for the cost Pru - they piss away billions on stupidity, so a few million on something that fundamentally affects the daily lives of everyone in the country doesn't sound too bad to me.

According to polls:

55% of people disagree with HS2, should we have a referendum on that?

43% (to 25% for) are against Ukraine joining the EU, should we have a referendum on that?

If the poll numbers, or the election results were to suggest there was a real appetite people actually want to leave, then I'm all for a referendum. I think it's the sort of simple yes-no question referendums work for, and whilst I don't, actually, think it fundamentally affects the daily lives of everyone in the country actually, people seem to think it does.

My point is, given UKIP are currently on just over 30% of the vote, I think it's pretty clear that enough people don't give a shit for it to be worth doing. Whilst there may be 'Tory voters' who want to leave the EU, I'd not be surprised if they weren't included as 'UKIP voters' in these polls, as what the feck else is the point of a European election?! The recent Ipsos MORI poll asked 'What do you see as the most/ other important issues facing Britain today? Fewer than 10% said the EU. They do this survey every year, and it hasn't been above 10% since May 2005. People don't care. And even though they don't care, if they were to vote, the numbers powerfully suggest they'd vote to stay in. It'd be a waste of time and money. Remind me how many MPs do UKIP have? So when it comes to an election, people don't even remotely care about it.

All of which is kind of away from my original point which is, why would UKIP getting 31%, say, mean Labour would be 'forced' to commit to a referendum?! Now, obviously the metaphor is a little laboured, but for the sake of argument, I reckon UKIP winning with 51% of the vote would force them to commit to one. 31%? No chance!

If we're not going to make 'a good prospect of success' a key requirement for a referendum, let's have some sort of trade system. The Right can have one on leaving the EU and the Left on getting rid of the monarchy.

[Abdoulaye's Twin]

I'm not suggesting we have a referendum for anything and everything. The EU membership question and direction of the EU fundamentally affects every part of our lives. It has a significant impact on many of the big issues we face as a country. A new train set affects far fewer people in a major way.

As for polls. Well, I'm on the fence as many are. Depending on my mood I'd probably answer the pollster in different ways. I'm not sure a referendum would bring back similar percentages to those you're quoting. Maybe they would. For me, the EU needs to set out a roadmap for the future and let people decide if they want a part of it. As it stands, there is not a lot of democracy happening in the EU, and this is what many have a problem with.

[thebish]

hmmmm.... still not convinced that referendums are a good thing - or what the criteria for having one might be. If it is that an issue affects lots of people financially - then should we have an annual referendum on the Govt's UK budget proposals?

[Abdoulaye's Twin]

hmmmm.... still not convinced that referendums are a good thing - or what the criteria for having one might be. If it is that an issue affects lots of people financially - then should we have an annual referendum on the Govt's UK budget proposals?

In general I'm not for them, but the EU is one that needs one IMO. A government budget has a temporary financial impact on everyone. The EU has a major impact on our laws and way of life.

[Prufrock]

I'm not suggesting we have a referendum for anything and everything. The EU membership question and direction of the EU fundamentally affects every part of our lives. It has a significant impact on many of the big issues we face as a country. A new train set affects far fewer people in a major way.

As for polls. Well, I'm on the fence as many are. Depending on my mood I'd probably answer the pollster in different ways. I'm not sure a referendum would bring back similar percentages to those you're quoting. Maybe they would. For me, the EU needs to set out a roadmap for the future and let people decide if they want a part of it. As it stands, there is not a lot of democracy happening in the EU, and this is what many have a problem with.

How does it fundamentally affect our lives?! It has large effects on the wider economy, but I can't think of a single time in my life where I've though 'well, this set of circumstances has been fundamentally affected by Britain's membership of the EU.

Of course a poll isn't perfect, but it's better than anecdote. They would have to be very wrong for there to be a chance of the out vote winning.

And how is there not a lot of democracy? EU laws get passed by the Council and/or the Parliament. The Parliament is directly elected, and the Council is made up of one member of the government of each country. So when there's a Council on the environment for example, we send our environment minister, who is elected. If it's on big shit, then it's David Cameron, who is elected.

The EU is far from perfect, and the same numbers which suggest people don't want to leave very much do suggest that people want the EU's powers lessened. It's not 'undemocratic' though.

[Prufrock]

hmmmm.... still not convinced that referendums are a good thing - or what the criteria for having one might be. If it is that an issue affects lots of people financially - then should we have an annual referendum on the Govt's UK budget proposals?

I don't necessarily disagree, though I do think EU membership is the sort of yes/no question that at least makes a referendum possible.

Part of me thinks 'fcuk it, just have one so we can get it over with and they'll shut the f*ck up'.

Except I don't think they would.

[thebish]

hmmmm.... still not convinced that referendums are a good thing - or what the criteria for having one might be. If it is that an issue affects lots of people financially - then should we have an annual referendum on the Govt's UK budget proposals?

I don't necessarily disagree, though I do think EU membership is the sort of yes/no question that at least makes a referendum possible.

Part of me thinks 'fcuk it, just have one so we can get it over with and they'll shut the f*ck up'.

Except I don't think they would.

indeed - the once-for-all big set piece vote on fox-hunting didn't shut that old chestnut up!

[Abdoulaye's Twin]

I'm not suggesting we have a referendum for anything and everything. The EU membership question and direction of the EU fundamentally affects every part of our lives. It has a significant impact on many of the big issues we face as a country. A new train set affects far fewer people in a major way.

As for polls. Well, I'm on the fence as many are. Depending on my mood I'd probably answer the pollster in different ways. I'm not sure a referendum would bring back similar percentages to those you're quoting. Maybe they would. For me, the EU needs to set out a roadmap for the future and let people decide if they want a part of it. As it stands, there is not a lot of democracy happening in the EU, and this is what many have a problem with.

How does it fundamentally affect our lives?! It has large effects on the wider economy, but I can't think of a single time in my life where I've though 'well, this set of circumstances has been fundamentally affected by Britain's membership of the EU.

Of course a poll isn't perfect, but it's better than anecdote. They would have to be very wrong for there to be a chance of the out vote winning.

And how is there not a lot of democracy? EU laws get passed by the Council and/or the Parliament. The Parliament is directly elected, and the Council is made up of one member of the government of each country. So when there's a Council on the environment for example, we send our environment minister, who is elected. If it's on big shit, then it's David Cameron, who is elected.

The EU is far from perfect, and the same numbers which suggest people don't want to leave very much do suggest that people want the EU's powers lessened. It's not 'undemocratic' though.

How does it fundamentally affect our lives?
The food you buy. Do you like alphonso mangoes from India? You're not allowed to buy them now. The tonnes of dead (but perfectly edible) fish that is thrown back into the sea. Food mountains that goes to waste because of EU subsidy that you are paying for.

Immigration, affecting housing, healthcare and government services. In a nutshell, a lot of regulations are made in Brussels. The Commission is run as a fiefdom, the Parliament is full of idiots that most people have no idea of whom they are. The EU is not my idea of democracy, though I don't think much of how democracy is on the UK these days. Treaties are introduced without the people being consulted. Sometimes when they are consulted they are told to vote again! I worked for the EU for a number of years and much of what I saw would have Hoboh taking up arms. It wasn't clever stuff and would have many EU citizens pretty angry.

[thebish]

no alphonso mangoes from India??? what?????

boooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!

[Prufrock]

You have a somewhat different definition of 'fundamental' than I do, AT!

[Abdoulaye's Twin]

You have a somewhat different definition of 'fundamental' than I do, AT!

Well, if it affects everything, that is fairly fundamental in my book.

[Abdoulaye's Twin]

no alphonso mangoes from India??? what?????

boooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!

Good for me, they've dropped to half price here

[Hoboh]

I'm not suggesting we have a referendum for anything and everything. The EU membership question and direction of the EU fundamentally affects every part of our lives. It has a significant impact on many of the big issues we face as a country. A new train set affects far fewer people in a major way.

As for polls. Well, I'm on the fence as many are. Depending on my mood I'd probably answer the pollster in different ways. I'm not sure a referendum would bring back similar percentages to those you're quoting. Maybe they would. For me, the EU needs to set out a roadmap for the future and let people decide if they want a part of it. As it stands, there is not a lot of democracy happening in the EU, and this is what many have a problem with.

How does it fundamentally affect our lives?! It has large effects on the wider economy, but I can't think of a single time in my life where I've though 'well, this set of circumstances has been fundamentally affected by Britain's membership of the EU.

Of course a poll isn't perfect, but it's better than anecdote. They would have to be very wrong for there to be a chance of the out vote winning.

And how is there not a lot of democracy? EU laws get passed by the Council and/or the Parliament. The Parliament is directly elected, and the Council is made up of one member of the government of each country. So when there's a Council on the environment for example, we send our environment minister, who is elected. If it's on big shit, then it's David Cameron, who is elected.

The EU is far from perfect, and the same numbers which suggest people don't want to leave very much do suggest that people want the EU's powers lessened. It's not 'undemocratic' though.

[TANGODANCER]

Not to get involved in any debate (I've many times admitted politics, no, make that politicians, bore me) but on the Scotland question, a "Yes" vote could cause all sorts of national security issues, policing etc with the Met being the main administrators of anti-terrorism etc. This power would move to north of the border and, presumably be run independently even with cooperation from both sides on it. Not sure how that would be handled, but surely it would be an issue? I ask, not state, I add....

[Lost Leopard Spot]

Feckin Scots. Really beginning to piss me off now.

[Hoboh]

So we are all mad and bad then?

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... our-voters" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Seems to be a growing trend, maybe it's young nut job rabid socialists that are out of touch (and the odd duggie Freedman impersonater)