Screaming headline or cause for concern?

[Lord Kangana]

From the B(E)N:

http://www.thisisbolton.co.uk/display.v ... ed_265.php

A YOUNG mum has been fined almost £300 - for putting her bin out the day before it was due to be collected.

Zoe Watmough left her grey bin and a green recycling bin outside her home on a Wednesday.

But it was spotted by Bolton Council enforcement officers who issued a fine because Miss Watmough's collection day was Thursday.

Rules dictate bins should not be put out until after 7.30am on the day refuse collectors are due.

Miss Watmought did not appear in court and was fined in her absence.

But the 22-year-old mother of two, of Essex Street, Horwich, said last night she was flabbergasted' at the outcome of the case: "There are people committing all sorts of crimes and getting away with it. I have left my bin out and have been fined the best part of £300.

"Everybody in this area puts their bins out the day before collection. I don't see what the problem is and can't afford to pay the fine," she said.

The court heard Miss Watmough had already been sent a warning by council officers who spotted on a Tuesday last November, that her bins were out before collection day.

When they spotted them out on a second occasion - a Wednesday in January - Miss Watmough was given a £75 fine. That resulted in a prosecution because she did not pay it within seven days.

Yesterday she was fined £125, ordered to pay £125 costs and a £15 victim surcharge when her case was heard by Bolton magistrates The court was told Bolton Council is pursuing prosecutions over bins left on streets because of the number of arson attacks by youths in the area.

Alison Kelly, prosecuting, said: "Horwich and Farnworth are particularly bad areas for people setting fire to bins, and they are becoming an increasingly dangerous hazard to residents.

"One third of fire calls in Farnworth are related to bin fires, and firefighters received up to 100 calls in one month when the problem was at its worst."

She added there have been occasions when firefighters have been called to a bin fire at the expense of attending more serious incidents.

It is estimated the cost of attending a bin fire is £1,900, and they cost the fire service up to £3 million each year across the country.

Four questions:

1)Why are fines being issued to people to deter others from burning their bins - surely thats myopic justice?

2) 7 days to pay an unnecessary and inconsequential fine seems a little on the severe side.

3)Does this apply to the whole of Bolton? I regularly leave my bin out the night before, and sometimes don't collect it til the day after - If they try and fine me I'd be tempted to take the case to a higher authority.

4) What the F*%K is a 'victim surcharge'? That smacks of revenue raising through punitive measures.

[Dave Sutton's barnet]

So you can't put your bin out before 7.30am, and I'm guessing you'll get no sympathy if they come at 8am and you've not put it out yet. What if you work nights, or are ill? Strange world.

[malcd1]

From the B(E)N:

http://www.thisisbolton.co.uk/display.v ... ed_265.php



Miss Watmought did not appear in court and was fined in her absence.

quote]


Four questions:

1)Why are fines being issued to people to deter others from burning their bins - surely thats myopic justice?

2) 7 days to pay an unnecessary and inconsequential fine seems a little on the severe side.

3)Does this apply to the whole of Bolton? I regularly leave my bin out the night before, and sometimes don't collect it til the day after - If they try and fine me I'd be tempted to take the case to a higher authority.

4) What the F*%K is a 'victim surcharge'? That smacks of revenue raising through punitive measures.

These are the two things that jumped out at me.

I suspect if she had been bother to turn up to court with a reasonable excuse. "I was going away for the Wednesday night and wouldn't be there on Thursday morning" she would probably of got away with it.

There is absolutely no point complaining to the papers if she couldn't be arsed fighting it in court and then not paying her fine.

[TANGODANCER]

Could try to resolve the problem by catching and punishing the arsonists instead, of course. Then again........

I leave for work at 6-55 most mornings. The wife's 63, retired and deserves to sleep in till 8-0/8-30 if she wishes. The bin men won't open the gate to your drive and get the bin so.???????

[InsaneApache]

You aint got it yet. It's a tax. Clever, clever government tax.

[Lord Kangana]

From the B(E)N:

http://www.thisisbolton.co.uk/display.v ... ed_265.php



Miss Watmought did not appear in court and was fined in her absence.

quote]


Four questions:

1)Why are fines being issued to people to deter others from burning their bins - surely thats myopic justice?

2) 7 days to pay an unnecessary and inconsequential fine seems a little on the severe side.

3)Does this apply to the whole of Bolton? I regularly leave my bin out the night before, and sometimes don't collect it til the day after - If they try and fine me I'd be tempted to take the case to a higher authority.

4) What the F*%K is a 'victim surcharge'? That smacks of revenue raising through punitive measures.

These are the two things that jumped out at me.

I suspect if she had been bother to turn up to court with a reasonable excuse. "I was going away for the Wednesday night and wouldn't be there on Thursday morning" she would probably of got away with it.

There is absolutely no point complaining to the papers if she couldn't be arsed fighting it in court and then not paying her fine.

Aye, but points 1 and 2 I made beg the question WTF is this happening in the first place. Surely there are better ways of preventing crime than just issuing fines to one of the victims?

Taking this form of prevention to its logical conclusion would lead to anyone who is burgled being fined for living in a house and wasting Police time.

[TANGODANCER]

You aint got it yet. It's a tax. Clever, clever government tax.

Aye, well, they have to pay the wages of all these enforcers, spies, litter, parking, smoking and dog-poo police somehow. Have to have a cut of it all too. Be fair man..

[Bruce Rioja]

You might be quite happy to wade through dog shit, dropped litter, stuff dumped be Gypo's, dock-ends, chewing gum and past cars that are parked selfishly, Tango, but I'm not, old son. I'm not.

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

You aint got it yet. It's a tax. Clever, clever government tax.

Of course it's just another revenue-raiser but I'd hate to credit this crude bit of legislation with being clever - I suppose the cleverness comes in the calculation that those commiting low level regulatory offences are an easy target!

Typical New Labour stuff.

I'm glad this has come up: I was tempted to raise a fuss a while ago.

A quick look at the Hansard Debates on 26 Apr 2007 reveals the following exchange:

Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con): Will the Solicitor-General explain why the victims surcharge is being levied on people who commit offences that often have no victims, such as motorists, yet not on those who commit offences that always have a victim, such as rapists?

The Solicitor-General: I do not accept that there is never a victim in motoring offences. Motoring offences are not victimless crimes. Some 3,201 people were killed on Britain’s roads in 2005, while 28,954 people were seriously injured and the total number of casualties was 271,000. Other so-called victimless crimes cause harm and create a cost to society through bringing the offender to justice and enforcing the sentence imposed. Money from the surcharge is going directly to help victims services—I think that the hon. Gentleman ought to be supporting that.

Er... did the Conservative MP say that there are "never" victims in motoring offences?! Of course it's a good thing to spend more money on victims' services... it's just immoral to steal from a group at random to pay for it!

Three weeks later, bless him, Philip Davies asked the same thing of Harriet Harman:

Philip Davies: To ask the Minister of State, Department for Constitutional Affairs what account is taken of the extent to which an offence has a victim in determining whether to apply the victims surcharge to the fines imposed on the perpetrators of that offence.

Ms Harman: In determining whether to apply the victims surcharge no account is taken of the extent to which an offence has a victim. The surcharge is paid by all offenders sentenced to a fine in the criminal courts, whether or not any other penalty is imposed.

Did either of these two members of the Government's legal A-team (snigger) give a shit that this just isn't coherent... a victim surcharge for which, in the words of one of the State's most senior lawyers, "no account is taken of the extent to which an offence has a victim"? Not a bit of it! Just typical New Labour arrogance that says ends can justify whatever means they want to use. The "nobody will notice another £15 when they're already paying a fine" attitude is, of course, appalling - Philip Davies is absolutely right to make a point of the fact that it's ludicrous that those offences that really do create victims such as rape and violent assault do not attract the charge just because a fine plays no role in the punishment for those offences.

A magistrate in the county in which I spend most of the year has already handed in his badge over this: good on him.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/ ... harge.html


Of course LK is right that the fine and the bullying tactics to collect it are inappropriate measures to deal with the problem of wheelie bins being left out. But why bother working to engender a sense of cooperation in the community to face these problems when you can just bring the clunking fist down and raise some more cash along the way?

[TANGODANCER]

You might be quite happy to wade through dog shit, dropped litter, stuff dumped be Gypo's, dock-ends, chewing gum and past cars that are parked selfishly, Tango, but I'm not, old son. I'm not.

FFS Bruce, do you have to nail everything I say and treat it as a major rant. I'm geting fxxking paranoid about making any comments on here. Have a go at somebody else will ya?

[Bruce Rioja]

You might be quite happy to wade through dog shit, dropped litter, stuff dumped be Gypo's, dock-ends, chewing gum and past cars that are parked selfishly, Tango, but I'm not, old son. I'm not.

FFS Bruce, do you have to nail everything I say and treat it as a major rant. I'm geting fxxking paranoid about making any comments on here. Have a go at somebody else will ya?

I'm not having a go at anyone so calm it right down. I'm pointing at that where you're on about the council employing enforcement officers as though they're on the make via some clandestine operation, I'm delighted to see them attempting to keep the streets clean and to punish the selfish and the irresponsible that make life unpleasant for those of us that aren't. Not sure how but I'll try and make my points even more glaringly fecking obvious in future Tango. How on earth you can construe my comments as being anything other I find difficult to see. Or is holding an opposite view somehow personal in your eyes?

[TANGODANCER]

You might be quite happy to wade through dog shit, dropped litter, stuff dumped be Gypo's, dock-ends, chewing gum and past cars that are parked selfishly, Tango, but I'm not, old son. I'm not.

FFS Bruce, do you have to nail everything I say and treat it as a major rant. I'm geting fxxking paranoid about making any comments on here. Have a go at somebody else will ya?

I'm not having a go at anyone so calm it right down. I'm pointing at that where you're on about the council employing enforcement officers as though they're on the make via some clandestine operation, I'm delighted to see them attempting to keep the streets clean and to punish the selfish and the irresponsible that make life unpleasant for those of us that aren't. Not sure how but I'll try and make my points even more glaringly fecking obvious in future Tango. How on earth you can construe my comments as being anything other I find difficult to see. Or is holding an opposite view somehow personal in your eyes?

Funny, that's just the thing I was wondering myself.

[wovlad]

They'll have field day if they hit Deane. I generally put my bin out the night before & I'm usually the last person on the street to do so.

[Raven]

Hope the Nuneaton lot see this, we have two bins a green one and a black one, then recycling bags, one for tins etc, one for cardboard, one for paper, one for plastic bottles, one for clothes and you know what happens..on recycling day we have one lorry for tins, one for cardboard, one for clothes etc and after they have been being ever so careful you then end up with plastic bags being blown everywhere, other litter all around that got dropped etc. They would end up fining themselves!

Oh and do they ever do street cleaning etc....not as far as I can see!

Dont even mention bloody cars parked on pavements!

[qwertywarrior]

unbelievable

instead of enforcement officers make them all litter collectors would be more beneficial

school is talking about introducing fines for non-attendance and bad behaviour how many peopele will be paying

[warthog]

You right wingers are so gullible. Or are you just desperate to be outraged?

The court heard Miss Watmough had already been sent a warning by council officers who spotted on a Tuesday last November, that her bins were out before collection day.

Collection day Thursday. Bin out on Tuesday.

She's been warned. She could have paid a much lesser fine, but chose not to. She couldn't even be bothered going to court.

This isn't someone who puts her bin out last thing at night as most folk do, but some lazy, inconsiderate cow who thinks that rules shouldn't apply to her.

[InsaneApache]

You right wingers are so gullible. Or are you just desperate to be outraged?

Oh dear a tax and spender realising that ZaNu-Labour are going to do a Liberal party ala 1922.

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

You right wingers are so gullible. Or are you just desperate to be outraged?

The court heard Miss Watmough had already been sent a warning by council officers who spotted on a Tuesday last November, that her bins were out before collection day.

Collection day Thursday. Bin out on Tuesday.

She's been warned. She could have paid a much lesser fine, but chose not to. She couldn't even be bothered going to court.

This isn't someone who puts her bin out last thing at night as most folk do, but some lazy, inconsiderate cow who thinks that rules shouldn't apply to her.

So they recorded two instances in three months of wheelie-bin related misbehaviour by a young mum of two kids no doubt with a lot more things to be thinking about....

Of course she hasn't helped herself, especially in not attending the court proceedings, but is there not a better way of dealing with people who get it wrong with their bins than this?

Anyway, it's the victim surcharge that outraged me when I first heard about it 12 months ago and continues to outrage me now.

And Lord Kangana, congratulations on your inauguration to the Right Wingers' Club.

[Verbal]

Swings and roundabouts. Give the conservatives a few years in power and the same people will be calling for Mr Cameron's head.

[Harry Genshaw]

This isn't someone who puts her bin out last thing at night as most folk do, but some lazy, inconsiderate cow who thinks that rules shouldn't apply to her.

My thoughts exactly. I'd be prepared to bet up to a pound that nobody on here ever gets done for this. It will be the usual candidate from the great unwashed who's chose to ignore various warnings and was so bang to rights couldn't be ar5ed to defend it.

Have to say though I didnt know about the Victim surcharge thing. Thats fookin outrageous