The Politics Thread

[Abdoulaye's Twin]

His core message about putting the USA first is probably what did for Clinton and her dodgy global money making backers.

Blame others for problems? Too right, all the folk like Dyson etc. who shut down factories to move them to low pay low privilege countries to make a fast buck are the ones to blame, read the labels where most of the stuff you consume comes from.
The citizens of the US are suffering this globalisation just as much as any of us and still Being expected to pay for the worlds problems and they have simply had enough.

Dignity and respect? Tell that to the residents of the former coalfields, those with ship yards in their town or God forbid a steel works who get told they have to pay for problems folk overseas have caused.

Exactly how is Trump going to fix all this? I must have missed that particular ramble

I don't disagree that globalisation has been a disaster for many, but ultimately folk have been the architect of their own problems. Every day we are all faced with choices about buying one product versus another. Sometimes we choose the foreign product because it's cheaper and that can be a tough choice when someone is skint or poor, but often we buy the foreign alternative when it is more expensive. We prefer to spend 3 quid on a coffee in a global tax dodging coffee chain than a local shop or small chain. We'd rather buy lots of cheap shit than less better quality or locally made stuff. Sometimes there is no locally made product or option, but often there is.

If you don't like globalisation then stop giving your money to global companies. Buy a pint of British beer, buy British bacon and shop in independent shops and small British chains.

PS - Much of what Donald Trump makes is made in factories outside of the US and using cheap imported labour. He's part of the problem, not the solution.

[KeyserSoze]

I think there was a certain degree of hubris in the Democratic campaign that Trump 'could not' win. Read an interesting article earlier which argued that Hillary, despite her experience and qualifications as such, was precisely the wrong candidate for an election where voters wanted to smash the system, not support it. While it's easy (and pointless) to question in hindsight that Biden/Sanders would have had a better chance, established parties in the West have played it like the playing surface is the same. It isn't. The political centre is empty.

The fact that voters decided to elect a sexist, racist liar who has made promises that would wreck the US economy, shatter cultural relations and put serious doubts on America's role in the world instead of 'the status quo' is alarming. But instead of climbing on our high horses and sharing memes about how dumb americans are, we have to understand why this result happened.

Because, frankly, the problems facing America won't be solved by Trump building a wall, or hiking tariffs on imports, or somehow cutting taxes and spending $500b on new infrastructure, or rewriting every multilateral trade agreement going. Because none of them can happen without the people who voted for Trump being shafted further. My biggest worry is what will happen when Trump fails and the rust-belt states that got him across the line keep treading water. It won't be pretty.

French and German elections next year could be the final nail in the coffin for liberal democratic politics for a bit.

[Hoboh]

His core message about putting the USA first is probably what did for Clinton and her dodgy global money making backers.

Blame others for problems? Too right, all the folk like Dyson etc. who shut down factories to move them to low pay low privilege countries to make a fast buck are the ones to blame, read the labels where most of the stuff you consume comes from.
The citizens of the US are suffering this globalisation just as much as any of us and still Being expected to pay for the worlds problems and they have simply had enough.

Dignity and respect? Tell that to the residents of the former coalfields, those with ship yards in their town or God forbid a steel works who get told they have to pay for problems folk overseas have caused.

Exactly how is Trump going to fix all this? I must have missed that particular ramble

I don't disagree that globalisation has been a disaster for many, but ultimately folk have been the architect of their own problems. Every day we are all faced with choices about buying one product versus another. Sometimes we choose the foreign product because it's cheaper and that can be a tough choice when someone is skint or poor, but often we buy the foreign alternative when it is more expensive. We prefer to spend 3 quid on a coffee in a global tax dodging coffee chain than a local shop or small chain. We'd rather buy lots of cheap shit than less better quality or locally made stuff. Sometimes there is no locally made product or option, but often there is.

If you don't like globalisation then stop giving your money to global companies. Buy a pint of British beer, buy British bacon and shop in independent shops and small British chains.

PS - Much of what Donald Trump makes is made in factories outside of the US and using cheap imported labour. He's part of the problem, not the solution.

Actually, I do try to do this, global coffee chain shops serve bilge anyway and should be avoided, we'd rather not buy the 'cheap shit' but as you allude poor or no wages to many make this impossible to avoid in the same way as cheap fatty groceries.

Trump is talking in terms of massive infrastructure development across the US and cutting overseas spending, those in Nato who pay next to now't should start worrying, the US is more worried about China than Putin.

[KeyserSoze]

And now the snow storm seems to have started.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... ogressives" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

These people do not realise they are just stirring up further distrust of anything they do and antagonising the electorate.

It's what the republicans did to Obama for eight years - completely stall him in the HoR and then call his tenure a failure. Just the right recipe for a demagogue with a big mouth and no manners to show the GOP what happens when you do away with conciliatory politics and instead focus on hate. Populism outgrows you.

[Worthy4England]

And now the snow storm seems to have started.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... ogressives" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

These people do not realise they are just stirring up further distrust of anything they do and antagonising the electorate.

What a load of tosh. When you talk about "antagonizing the electorate" - you actually mean a narrow majority of it...

There have been two significant elections this year (might have been some others that passed me by.). On Brexit, the majority were for exit, but 48.x% were not. We should exit. All the bits below exit should quite rightly be discussed. It wasn't a landslide. A significant proportion of the "electorate" didn't want it at all.

Regarding the US election the popular vote appears to be 47.7% for Trump, 47.5% for Clinton. The electorate has voted for Trump which should be respected but differentially 0.2% less, didn't. So Trump will get to drive his policies for 5 years. He should. He won the election. But when you're bandying about "the will of the electorate", it isn't my will and never will be. There isn't a "right and wrong" - there are just more people (in the case of Brexit) that agreed with the notion as were against it.

So you can stick the notion that somehow Brexit represents the "electorate" right where the sun don't shine - it only represents the 51.x% that voted for it.

[Abdoulaye's Twin]

His core message about putting the USA first is probably what did for Clinton and her dodgy global money making backers.

Blame others for problems? Too right, all the folk like Dyson etc. who shut down factories to move them to low pay low privilege countries to make a fast buck are the ones to blame, read the labels where most of the stuff you consume comes from.
The citizens of the US are suffering this globalisation just as much as any of us and still Being expected to pay for the worlds problems and they have simply had enough.

Dignity and respect? Tell that to the residents of the former coalfields, those with ship yards in their town or God forbid a steel works who get told they have to pay for problems folk overseas have caused.

Exactly how is Trump going to fix all this? I must have missed that particular ramble

I don't disagree that globalisation has been a disaster for many, but ultimately folk have been the architect of their own problems. Every day we are all faced with choices about buying one product versus another. Sometimes we choose the foreign product because it's cheaper and that can be a tough choice when someone is skint or poor, but often we buy the foreign alternative when it is more expensive. We prefer to spend 3 quid on a coffee in a global tax dodging coffee chain than a local shop or small chain. We'd rather buy lots of cheap shit than less better quality or locally made stuff. Sometimes there is no locally made product or option, but often there is.

If you don't like globalisation then stop giving your money to global companies. Buy a pint of British beer, buy British bacon and shop in independent shops and small British chains.

PS - Much of what Donald Trump makes is made in factories outside of the US and using cheap imported labour. He's part of the problem, not the solution.

Actually, I do try to do this, global coffee chain shops serve bilge anyway and should be avoided, we'd rather not buy the 'cheap shit' but as you allude poor or no wages to many make this impossible to avoid in the same way as cheap fatty groceries.

Trump is talking in terms of massive infrastructure development across the US and cutting overseas spending, those in Nato who pay next to now't should start worrying, the US is more worried about China than Putin.

Trump has talked about investing more in the military. A military that already sucks up over $600bn a year, plus the money thrown at other security agencies. His sums don't add up.

As Keyser has mentioned, the best chance the US had of changing things was probably Bernie Sanders. Sadly, I think the US is going to be in a far bigger mess in 4 years than now.

[Hoboh]

And now the snow storm seems to have started.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... ogressives" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

These people do not realise they are just stirring up further distrust of anything they do and antagonising the electorate.

It's what the republicans did to Obama for eight years - completely stall him in the HoR and then call his tenure a failure. Just the right recipe for a demagogue with a big mouth and no manners to show the GOP what happens when you do away with conciliatory politics and instead focus on hate. Populism outgrows you.

Not when other branch's of democracy are in your pocket it doesn't.

Look for what it's worth I think Trump during his election campaign had too big a mouth and too extreme yet still won, I'd expect a mellowing now.
Reagan was pilloried and didn't turn out as bad as expected, the only reason I'm pleased Trump won was because it's another kick in the nuts to those who always know better and expect everyone else to indulge their fetish.
I'm still puzzled as to how we deal with ISIS except by eradicating them, after all without force how else are they going to be removed, sanctions? People never comment on this merely take pot shots at an easier target in the form of Assad, get rid of him and watch who moves in.
Liberals fatal mistake is to think everyone holds their opinions, clean, feel good but bugger all solutions, after all Corbyn and others want to negotiate with the Islamic state.
Trump may turn out to be a breath of fresh air to the stench of the establishment although I won't hold my breath.

[Hoboh]

And now the snow storm seems to have started.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... ogressives" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

These people do not realise they are just stirring up further distrust of anything they do and antagonising the electorate.

What a load of tosh. When you talk about "antagonizing the electorate" - you actually mean a narrow majority of it...

There have been two significant elections this year (might have been some others that passed me by.). On Brexit, the majority were for exit, but 48.x% were not. We should exit. All the bits below exit should quite rightly be discussed. It wasn't a landslide. A significant proportion of the "electorate" didn't want it at all.

Regarding the US election the popular vote appears to be 47.7% for Trump, 47.5% for Clinton. The electorate has voted for Trump which should be respected but differentially 0.2% less, didn't. So Trump will get to drive his policies for 5 years. He should. He won the election. But when you're bandying about "the will of the electorate", it isn't my will and never will be. There isn't a "right and wrong" - there are just more people (in the case of Brexit) that agreed with the notion as were against it.

So you can stick the notion that somehow Brexit represents the "electorate" right where the sun don't shine - it only represents the 51.x% that voted for it.

Your fetish with percentages is rather disconcerting at times

[Hoboh]

His core message about putting the USA first is probably what did for Clinton and her dodgy global money making backers.

Blame others for problems? Too right, all the folk like Dyson etc. who shut down factories to move them to low pay low privilege countries to make a fast buck are the ones to blame, read the labels where most of the stuff you consume comes from.
The citizens of the US are suffering this globalisation just as much as any of us and still Being expected to pay for the worlds problems and they have simply had enough.

Dignity and respect? Tell that to the residents of the former coalfields, those with ship yards in their town or God forbid a steel works who get told they have to pay for problems folk overseas have caused.

Exactly how is Trump going to fix all this? I must have missed that particular ramble

I don't disagree that globalisation has been a disaster for many, but ultimately folk have been the architect of their own problems. Every day we are all faced with choices about buying one product versus another. Sometimes we choose the foreign product because it's cheaper and that can be a tough choice when someone is skint or poor, but often we buy the foreign alternative when it is more expensive. We prefer to spend 3 quid on a coffee in a global tax dodging coffee chain than a local shop or small chain. We'd rather buy lots of cheap shit than less better quality or locally made stuff. Sometimes there is no locally made product or option, but often there is.

If you don't like globalisation then stop giving your money to global companies. Buy a pint of British beer, buy British bacon and shop in independent shops and small British chains.

PS - Much of what Donald Trump makes is made in factories outside of the US and using cheap imported labour. He's part of the problem, not the solution.

Actually, I do try to do this, global coffee chain shops serve bilge anyway and should be avoided, we'd rather not buy the 'cheap shit' but as you allude poor or no wages to many make this impossible to avoid in the same way as cheap fatty groceries.

Trump is talking in terms of massive infrastructure development across the US and cutting overseas spending, those in Nato who pay next to now't should start worrying, the US is more worried about China than Putin.

Trump has talked about investing more in the military. A military that already sucks up over $600bn a year, plus the money thrown at other security agencies. His sums don't add up.

As Keyser has mentioned, the best chance the US had of changing things was probably Bernie Sanders. Sadly, I think the US is going to be in a far bigger mess in 4 years than now.

With the Chinese military growing at the rate it is and it's support for folk like fat boy in NK, I'd be investing as well, anyway it's more jobs.

[Hoboh]

Rather a strange headline in the Guardian

People of colour, women, Muslims, queer people, the sick, immigrants: all are threatened by Donald Trump. They need your love, your warmth, your support.
Steven Thrasher

How correct is one of the correct ones?

[Worthy4England]

And now the snow storm seems to have started.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... ogressives" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

These people do not realise they are just stirring up further distrust of anything they do and antagonising the electorate.

What a load of tosh. When you talk about "antagonizing the electorate" - you actually mean a narrow majority of it...

There have been two significant elections this year (might have been some others that passed me by.). On Brexit, the majority were for exit, but 48.x% were not. We should exit. All the bits below exit should quite rightly be discussed. It wasn't a landslide. A significant proportion of the "electorate" didn't want it at all.

Regarding the US election the popular vote appears to be 47.7% for Trump, 47.5% for Clinton. The electorate has voted for Trump which should be respected but differentially 0.2% less, didn't. So Trump will get to drive his policies for 5 years. He should. He won the election. But when you're bandying about "the will of the electorate", it isn't my will and never will be. There isn't a "right and wrong" - there are just more people (in the case of Brexit) that agreed with the notion as were against it.

So you can stick the notion that somehow Brexit represents the "electorate" right where the sun don't shine - it only represents the 51.x% that voted for it.

Your fetish with percentages is rather disconcerting at times

That's bollocks, 110% of the time.

[Abdoulaye's Twin]

His core message about putting the USA first is probably what did for Clinton and her dodgy global money making backers.

Blame others for problems? Too right, all the folk like Dyson etc. who shut down factories to move them to low pay low privilege countries to make a fast buck are the ones to blame, read the labels where most of the stuff you consume comes from.
The citizens of the US are suffering this globalisation just as much as any of us and still Being expected to pay for the worlds problems and they have simply had enough.

Dignity and respect? Tell that to the residents of the former coalfields, those with ship yards in their town or God forbid a steel works who get told they have to pay for problems folk overseas have caused.

Exactly how is Trump going to fix all this? I must have missed that particular ramble

I don't disagree that globalisation has been a disaster for many, but ultimately folk have been the architect of their own problems. Every day we are all faced with choices about buying one product versus another. Sometimes we choose the foreign product because it's cheaper and that can be a tough choice when someone is skint or poor, but often we buy the foreign alternative when it is more expensive. We prefer to spend 3 quid on a coffee in a global tax dodging coffee chain than a local shop or small chain. We'd rather buy lots of cheap shit than less better quality or locally made stuff. Sometimes there is no locally made product or option, but often there is.

If you don't like globalisation then stop giving your money to global companies. Buy a pint of British beer, buy British bacon and shop in independent shops and small British chains.

PS - Much of what Donald Trump makes is made in factories outside of the US and using cheap imported labour. He's part of the problem, not the solution.

Actually, I do try to do this, global coffee chain shops serve bilge anyway and should be avoided, we'd rather not buy the 'cheap shit' but as you allude poor or no wages to many make this impossible to avoid in the same way as cheap fatty groceries.

Trump is talking in terms of massive infrastructure development across the US and cutting overseas spending, those in Nato who pay next to now't should start worrying, the US is more worried about China than Putin.

Trump has talked about investing more in the military. A military that already sucks up over $600bn a year, plus the money thrown at other security agencies. His sums don't add up.

As Keyser has mentioned, the best chance the US had of changing things was probably Bernie Sanders. Sadly, I think the US is going to be in a far bigger mess in 4 years than now.

With the Chinese military growing at the rate it is and it's support for folk like fat boy in NK, I'd be investing as well, anyway it's more jobs.

I thought you'd have cottoned on to what a wheeze the industry is. For example, a Brimstone costs over 100k a pop. Add in the cost of the gadget launching it and we've got a nice little transfer of taxpayer money to massively rich folk that sell them. When you're telling your citizens you're not interested in their health because you'd rather spend it on bombs...

[KeyserSoze]

And now the snow storm seems to have started.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... ogressives" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

These people do not realise they are just stirring up further distrust of anything they do and antagonising the electorate.

It's what the republicans did to Obama for eight years - completely stall him in the HoR and then call his tenure a failure. Just the right recipe for a demagogue with a big mouth and no manners to show the GOP what happens when you do away with conciliatory politics and instead focus on hate. Populism outgrows you.

Not when other branch's of democracy are in your pocket it doesn't.

Look for what it's worth I think Trump during his election campaign had too big a mouth and too extreme yet still won, I'd expect a mellowing now.
Reagan was pilloried and didn't turn out as bad as expected, the only reason I'm pleased Trump won was because it's another kick in the nuts to those who always know better and expect everyone else to indulge their fetish.
I'm still puzzled as to how we deal with ISIS except by eradicating them, after all without force how else are they going to be removed, sanctions? People never comment on this merely take pot shots at an easier target in the form of Assad, get rid of him and watch who moves in.
Liberals fatal mistake is to think everyone holds their opinions, clean, feel good but bugger all solutions, after all Corbyn and others want to negotiate with the Islamic state.
Trump may turn out to be a breath of fresh air to the stench of the establishment although I won't hold my breath.

How were they in his pocket?

Trump will be the stench needed to reinvigorate liberal democracy to be better. I hope.

[Montreal Wanderer]

Oh fcuk off.

Dark times. I look forward to him pulling back on all his ludicrous policy ideas.

One certainly hopes he will. We may laugh at millions of American voters who bought into those policies based largely on lies, prejudice and misinformation. Although to be honest I'm not sure how far this differs from the Brexit campaign. Expelling Muslims, building walls, ripping up trade treaties, etc. etc. would cause a lot of hardship in this world. He doesn't have a track record of listening to advisors but hopefully this may change.

[boltonboris]

I don't think Brexit and Donald Trump as US president are comparable

[BWFC_Insane]

Irony is, Hoboh bangs on about snowflakes. But is there more a classic snowflake by Hoboh's own definitions than Trump?

A man who rose to broad fame via reality TV.

Who uses social media to rant and rave to anyone who will listen.

Who has flip flopped political views over the past twenty years, democrat, then republican, then populist mentalism.

All that has happened is Hoboh's hated generation of snowflakes have elected on of their own.

[Harry Genshaw]

The average Americans standard of living has been falling for years, with many middle class people having to hold down 2 and 3 jobs to make ends meet. I'm sure as hell that Trump ain't the answer but perhaps this vote will at least make some in the corridors of power realise you ignore these people at your peril

[BWFC_Insane]

The average Americans standard of living has been falling for years, with many middle class people having to hold down 2 and 3 jobs to make ends meet. I'm sure as hell that Trump ain't the answer but perhaps this vote will at least make some in the corridors of power realise you ignore these people at your peril

And do what? These people want easy answers. Blame the immigrants. Blame the socialists. They don't want to accept that the wider world has changed that Western manufacturing and production is constantly squeezed and that the recession caused by successive right wing governments giving free reign to the financial markets has led to the misery of many for so long.

That's what these people think and there is no telling them differently. What is an Obama or Clinton to do? There isn't a magic button and it is incredibly easy to fall into the trap of dishing out popular rhetoric and slogans. Trump capitalised on that. But everyone says 'listen to these people' then what? Give them the false easy answers they think they want? Because that's how Nazi Germany started. Just saying....

[Harry Genshaw]

^

'These people ' you refer to aren't necessaily racist or sexist. They're just like you and I but with infinitely less job security and employee benefits than we have. They've watched their wages stagnate while one or two individuals have got obscenely wealthy in the same period. Folk largely want to work hard and reap the benefits that used to bring. The American dream and all that. They're not looking to blame ethnic groups.

[BWFC_Insane]

^

'These people ' you refer to aren't necessaily racist or sexist. They're just like you and I but with infinitely less job security and employee benefits than we have. They've watched their wages stagnate while one or two individuals have got obscenely wealthy in the same period. Folk largely want to work hard and reap the benefits that used to bring. The American dream and all that. They're not looking to blame ethnic groups.

But they are. I'm not saying that they are racist, but it is far easier to blame immigrants than it is to face the fact that the industry you've worked in for 20 years is dying and there is nothing anyone can do about it. I don't think the majority of Germans were racist in the 1930's. But when things are shit and someone peddles the line that a certain group of people are responsible those views need challenging. Unfortunately it seems pandering to the uneducated is the order of the day. Also the fact is that a significant proportion of mid western and southern state Americans are indeed racist. Homophobic too. And Trump tapped into that alongside the downturn in fortunes of others who perhaps aren't racist but gave them a 'blame valve'. A quick, imaginary fix. Build a wall. That'll fix it....

What are the 'established politicians' meant to do about it? These people don't want socialist ideals. They want blame and absolving of their own part in anything that has gone wrong. It simply isn't reality. The issue is that the recession was caused by the very sort of greed and profiteering their new saviour was involved with. But instead of accepting this, they want to blame an establishment that whilst complicit in not tackling the underlying problem certainly aren't able to wave a magic wand now.

Oh and I've just read that the final irony in this tale, especially to the likes of Hoboh and Brexit majority banger on's, is that Clinton polled more votes than Trump. So the most popular candidate has lost.