The Politics Thread

[TANGODANCER]

Accepting that this as the Politics thread, greed, carelessness and the eternal desire to give less charge more isn't governed by any form of politics Hoboh. It's universal, governed by forever on the make humans of any and every denomination. Thus it will ever be, despite all the saftery regulations on the planet, accidents and disasters will happen. Stable doors all over the universe may have new locks fitted after every disaster,( note "after") together with hands raised and oaths sworn to repent, but leaving them open for whatever reason defeats them all from Chubb's finest to the Pound Shop specials . Even the Monster Raving Loonies won't guarantee different. Politics can't guarantee honesty and community spirit except on promotion leaflets. "I'm alright Jack" will always apply. It's human nature and delegating is now an art form.

In the words of the Vicar who locked the gates of church grounds when a horde of caravans arrived one morning. When asked why, he replied, "Even Christianity stops at twelve caravans"

[Hoboh]

Accepting that this as the Politics thread, greed, carelessness and the eternal desire to give less charge more isn't governed by any form of politics Hoboh. It's universal, governed by forever on the make humans of any and every denomination. Thus it will ever be, despite all the saftery regulations on the planet, accidents and disasters will happen. Stable doors all over the universe may have new locks fitted after every disaster,( note "after") together with hands raised and oaths sworn to repent, but leaving them open for whatever reason defeats them all from Chubb's finest to the Pound Shop specials . Even the Monster Raving Loonies won't guarantee different. Politics can't guarantee honesty and community spirit except on promotion leaflets. "I'm alright Jack" will always apply. It's human nature and delegating is now an art form.

In the words of the Vicar who locked the gates of church grounds when a horde of caravans arrived one morning. When asked why, he replied, "Even Christianity stops at twelve caravans"

Yes, yes, I accept that the main point about my angle on this is the constant blame being hurled at the current government by a party who are not a 'Whiter shade of pale' when it comes to responsibility.
Corbyn, Napoleon and Squealer are milking this for every disgusting point they can score from the hugging to almost incitement to riot.
I'd be the same if the Tories did similar.

[Worthy4England]

I guess that'll be one of the things that the Inquiry tells us.

I think Philip Hammond summed it up ok, when he said his understanding was that the cladding in question which is banned in Europe and the US is also banned here. I don't know whether that is a correct or incorrect statement - if it's correct, then the problem seems to lie in the fact that someone approved its use incorrectly and signed-off on it. So that part needs looking at. If it's incorrect then we clearly have a problem with the regulations that needs to be investigated to find out when it was introduced.

He also asked whether the current regulations allow the right type of materials and ban the wrong ones. If this is the case, then I suppose the Inquiry will look at how we stop that occurring. Approved Document B has been in existence since at least 1985. It then has been amended on many occasions, the latest being 2013. I'm not close enough to it to understand which things specifically in relation to this disaster changed.

[Worthy4England]

Accepting that this as the Politics thread, greed, carelessness and the eternal desire to give less charge more isn't governed by any form of politics Hoboh. It's universal, governed by forever on the make humans of any and every denomination. Thus it will ever be, despite all the saftery regulations on the planet, accidents and disasters will happen. Stable doors all over the universe may have new locks fitted after every disaster,( note "after") together with hands raised and oaths sworn to repent, but leaving them open for whatever reason defeats them all from Chubb's finest to the Pound Shop specials . Even the Monster Raving Loonies won't guarantee different. Politics can't guarantee honesty and community spirit except on promotion leaflets. "I'm alright Jack" will always apply. It's human nature and delegating is now an art form.

In the words of the Vicar who locked the gates of church grounds when a horde of caravans arrived one morning. When asked why, he replied, "Even Christianity stops at twelve caravans"

Yes, yes, I accept that the main point about my angle on this is the constant blame being hurled at the current government by a party who are not a 'Whiter shade of pale' when it comes to responsibility.
Corbyn, Napoleon and Squealer are milking this for every disgusting point they can score from the hugging to almost incitement to riot.
I'd be the same if the Tories did similar.

We've created a position where something doesn't have to be correct anymore, it just has to stick and be perceived as being correct. Suck it up, snowflake.

[malcd1]

All governments have been asked to change the buildings regs since the 2006 changes and none have done so. These changes may have been implemented during a Labour government but the Conservatives have had plenty of time to do something about it.

Unfortunately it takes a disaster like Grenfell to make the necessary changes to regulations. This one was entirely predictable.

[Worthy4England]

All governments have been asked to change the buildings regs since the 2006 changes and none have done so. These changes may have been implemented during a Labour government but the Conservatives have had plenty of time to do something about it.

Unfortunately it takes a disaster like Grenfell to make the necessary changes to regulations. This one was entirely predictable.

Don't disagree there Malc. Both of 'em just seem to be in the pockets of developers, who are landbanking, throttling housing supply and many other things to try and maximise profit margins. They need reigning in.

[Lord Kangana]

The elephant in the room here, and forgive me politicising this, but its an important point, is that the centre and right governments we've had for the last few decades have had little appetite for clunky regulation (I myself was a victim of a far lesser, financial crime, purely attributable to poor regulation).

The only politician offering 'nanny state' (I hate the phrase, but it finds it's use here) policies is Corbyn. I'm not offering this as a ringing endorsement of his policy portfolio, but there are people on this thread with wildly different political views who are in broad agreement over what needs to be done. How to solve it?

[malcd1]

It needs someone with balls to grasp the bull by the horns. Scotland have had a policy for years of installing sprinkler systems in old peoples homes and the vast majority of schools. Last year Wales introduced a policy of installing sprinklers in all new residential properties, schools and council owned building. England? Feck all. Absolutely nothing.

Fire protection systems are actually my background although I now work in insurance. I have had schools burnt down in arson attacks and the council have carried out a risk assessment proving that they don't need to install sprinklers in the new school as the risk is so low. Architects tell me that they are not installing sprinkler systems because they are ugly and would ruin the look what he was trying to achieve. Consultants whose only task is to reduce the overall costs of a construction project and as fire protection systems do not create money or do anything useful (heating, lighting etc) then they leave them out to save 2% on the project.

I have loads of instances of stupidity from people with power who cannot see the benefit of preventing a building from burning down. If a sprinkler system had been installed within the flats at Grenfell, one head would have operated and controlled the fire. It wouldn't have even made the local newspaper.

[Hoboh]

It needs someone with balls to grasp the bull by the horns. Scotland have had a policy for years of installing sprinkler systems in old peoples homes and the vast majority of schools. Last year Wales introduced a policy of installing sprinklers in all new residential properties, schools and council owned building. England? Feck all. Absolutely nothing.

Fire protection systems are actually my background although I now work in insurance. I have had schools burnt down in arson attacks and the council have carried out a risk assessment proving that they don't need to install sprinklers in the new school as the risk is so low. Architects tell me that they are not installing sprinkler systems because they are ugly and would ruin the look what he was trying to achieve. Consultants whose only task is to reduce the overall costs of a construction project and as fire protection systems do not create money or do anything useful (heating, lighting etc) then they leave them out to save 2% on the project.

I have loads of instances of stupidity from people with power who cannot see the benefit of preventing a building from burning down. If a sprinkler system had been installed within the flats at Grenfell, one head would have operated and controlled the fire. It wouldn't have even made the local newspaper.

Ahhh, now then, insurance.
I remember visits from insurance assessors to some of the warehousing/distribution depots I was responsible for and quite literally some of the stuff they came up with to 'comply' to keep cover was really strict and way past the expected usual regulated norm.
Maybe some are scrimping on this?

[Worthy4England]

^^ The good news is we can get rid of all this red tape bollocks in the Great Repeal Bill...

[malcd1]

It needs someone with balls to grasp the bull by the horns. Scotland have had a policy for years of installing sprinkler systems in old peoples homes and the vast majority of schools. Last year Wales introduced a policy of installing sprinklers in all new residential properties, schools and council owned building. England? Feck all. Absolutely nothing.

Fire protection systems are actually my background although I now work in insurance. I have had schools burnt down in arson attacks and the council have carried out a risk assessment proving that they don't need to install sprinklers in the new school as the risk is so low. Architects tell me that they are not installing sprinkler systems because they are ugly and would ruin the look what he was trying to achieve. Consultants whose only task is to reduce the overall costs of a construction project and as fire protection systems do not create money or do anything useful (heating, lighting etc) then they leave them out to save 2% on the project.

I have loads of instances of stupidity from people with power who cannot see the benefit of preventing a building from burning down. If a sprinkler system had been installed within the flats at Grenfell, one head would have operated and controlled the fire. It wouldn't have even made the local newspaper.

Ahhh, now then, insurance.
I remember visits from insurance assessors to some of the warehousing/distribution depots I was responsible for and quite literally some of the stuff they came up with to 'comply' to keep cover was really strict and way past the expected usual regulated norm.
Maybe some are scrimping on this?

Building regulations and legislation are almost certainly the MINIMUM standard when owning, occupying, refurbishing or constructing a building. They are for Life Safety purposes only. Believe it or not, insurers are the only people who want to ensure any incident in a property remains small (fire, flood, process hazards, malicious damage, water leakage etc) and that the business continues to trade as soon as possible afterwards. Property and building protection is almost certainly much more onerous than anything that is stipulated by Building Control, the Fire Brigade, Approved Document B, BS 9999 and the others. All these institutions and documents only ask for buildings to stay standing for as long as it takes to get everyone out. For instance, if it takes 6 minutes to get people out of a building and it has been assessed that the building will not collapse for 8 minutes then it would probably be in compliance from all those listed above and be accepted.

Insurance minimum requirements are based on hundreds of years of loss history and current trends while the building regulations were probably written in the 1990's and don't change very often.

As in all these type of cases, money is a big factor. Scrimping and only meeting minimum building regulations very rarely provide a robust and resilient building that will resist fire spread.

[malcd1]

^^ The good news is we can get rid of all this red tape bollocks in the Great Repeal Bill...

I know you comment is tongue in cheek but I am hoping that coming out of the EU would help us to produce our own legislation much quicker than we do at the moment. European Standards are incredibly difficult to get passed especially if every country has a say and vote. Everyone wants the standards to be in their favour and meet their own requirements, which is incredibly difficult to achieve across all of Europe.

Some standards take decades to produce and finetune and are out of date before they are agreed and published but they don't want to shelve them as they would be back to square one. Agreeing a harmonised standards is painfully slow and then when published, the French and Germans don't adopt it and go back to their own local codes.

At the end of the day we will probably adopt most of the European standards anyway if we want to trade with them.

[Abdoulaye's Twin]

^^ The good news is we can get rid of all this red tape bollocks in the Great Repeal Bill...

I know you comment is tongue in cheek but I am hoping that coming out of the EU would help us to produce our own legislation much quicker than we do at the moment. European Standards are incredibly difficult to get passed especially if every country has a say and vote. Everyone wants the standards to be in their favour and meet their own requirements, which is incredibly difficult to achieve across all of Europe.

Some standards take decades to produce and finetune and are out of date before they are agreed and published but they don't want to shelve them as they would be back to square one. Agreeing a harmonised standards is painfully slow and then when published, the French and Germans don't adopt it and go back to their own local codes.

At the end of the day we will probably adopt most of the European standards anyway if we want to trade with them.

I hear what you're saying, but having had first hand experience of the European Medicines Agency (sadly now leaving London), regulation across Europe can work quickly and efficiently. It just needs the right Agency set up and personnel. From memory the European H&S Agency is based in that bastion of H&S culture that is Spain!

[Lord Kangana]

Yeah, who's placing their money where their mouth is and suggesting the deregulation obsessed right wing of the Tories would stomach more, not less, regulation?

Seriously? Seriously seriously you're asking me to accept that as a premise?

[Hoboh]

Yeah, who's placing their money where their mouth is and suggesting the deregulation obsessed right wing of the Tories would stomach more, not less, regulation?

Seriously? Seriously seriously you're asking me to accept that as a premise?

I'm no fan of this deregulation stuff but, nor am I a fan of the human rights bollocks either, if you are convicted of a serious crime I really don't give a toss if the country you are from will chop you into little bits if you are deported, tough titty.
Nor do I care if you have been shagging left right and centre producing excuses for staying.

[Hoboh]

Oh, hey up here we go again.

China 'humiliating' the UK by scrapping Hong Kong handover deal, activists say
Pro-democracy leaders say Britain has ‘legal, moral and political responsibility’ to stand up to Beijing

What next? Demanding asylum in the UK no doubt! Try Germany they take anybody, just claim you are Syrian.

[Hoboh]

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... ight-fears

Why, oh why, don't they just go away now? Job's done.

[Lord Kangana]

Perhaps because quitting the EU was simply a good banner to gather all the crackpots together under?

It's possible that some of us may have even mentioned it in passing on this very thread.

[Worthy4England]

On a slightly different note. As an infrequent user of Facebook, I'm signed up to our local "Community Group" - read residents. Recently, the volume of break-ins has increased massively - and I mean every other day. Some folks have been broken into at reasonably early hours of the evening whilst they were in the house. So the number of CCTV installations has been on the increase. Last week a couple of scrotes who had been caught on CCTV testing car doors in a less than community spirited manner were "found" on Facebook and identified. It was only a matter of time, before someone suggested, given the police are doing fck all, that a group of folks "pay 'em a little visit"...

Gotta love the cut-backs.

[boltonboris]

On a slightly different note. As an infrequent user of Facebook, I'm signed up to our local "Community Group" - read residents. Recently, the volume of break-ins has increased massively - and I mean every other day. Some folks have been broken into at reasonably early hours of the evening whilst they were in the house. So the number of CCTV installations has been on the increase. Last week a couple of scrotes who had been caught on CCTV testing car doors in a less than community spirited manner were "found" on Facebook and identified. It was only a matter of time, before someone suggested, given the police are doing fck all, that a group of folks "pay 'em a little visit"...

Gotta love the cut-backs.

I think that was my mates video.. White Jag and White Audi Q5?

The 2 lads are local too apparently and don't visit from outside the area... I might join them in knocking on their doors