The Politics Thread

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Who will you be voting for?

Labour
12
40%
Conservatives
11
37%
Liberal Democrats
2
7%
UK Independence Party (UKIP)
0
No votes
Green Party
3
10%
Plaid Cymru
0
No votes
Other
1
3%
Planet Hobo
1
3%
 
Total votes: 30

Hoboh
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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by Hoboh » Tue Oct 03, 2017 10:18 pm

Prufrock wrote:
Tue Oct 03, 2017 5:16 pm
Pathetic.
Yep, you are.

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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by BWFC_Insane » Wed Oct 04, 2017 11:24 am

Hoboh wrote:
Tue Oct 03, 2017 9:17 am
“Today we have witnessed a nationalistic propaganda act, undemocratic; a coup attempt against Spanish democracy, and so a coup against Europe,” - tweet from Ramón Luis Valcárcel (a member of the European People’s Party)
The EU Commission issued a statement: “For the European Commission, as President Juncker has reiterated repeatedly, this is an internal matter for Spain that has to be dealt with in line with the constitutional order of Spain.” (or: nothing to do with us!)
They'll interfere with the internal politics of Poland and Hungary though
The Spanish Government thinks its an undemocratic coup against the ideals of the EU.
Common theme?

EU, EU, EU!

They couldn't' bully the UK about holding a referendum (albeit they are trying to bolt the stable door now) but God help anyone else who tries, don't like losing or even the thought of losing 'unity' do they? Why, people might just start questioning their existence and what the real aims of the Europhiles are.
Think through your logic here....really think it through....

The EU are trying to control everyone...they don't like breaking unity....they aren't democratic.....

Then read the quote you've posted from the EU Commission...read it...

Then re-think your logic....

Actually I'm wasting my time here!

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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by Lost Leopard Spot » Wed Oct 04, 2017 7:40 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Wed Oct 04, 2017 11:24 am
Hoboh wrote:
Tue Oct 03, 2017 9:17 am
“Today we have witnessed a nationalistic propaganda act, undemocratic; a coup attempt against Spanish democracy, and so a coup against Europe,” - tweet from Ramón Luis Valcárcel (a member of the European People’s Party)
The EU Commission issued a statement: “For the European Commission, as President Juncker has reiterated repeatedly, this is an internal matter for Spain that has to be dealt with in line with the constitutional order of Spain.” (or: nothing to do with us!)
They'll interfere with the internal politics of Poland and Hungary though
The Spanish Government thinks its an undemocratic coup against the ideals of the EU.
Common theme?

EU, EU, EU!

They couldn't' bully the UK about holding a referendum (albeit they are trying to bolt the stable door now) but God help anyone else who tries, don't like losing or even the thought of losing 'unity' do they? Why, people might just start questioning their existence and what the real aims of the Europhiles are.
Think through your logic here....really think it through....

The EU are trying to control everyone...they don't like breaking unity....they aren't democratic.....

Then read the quote you've posted from the EU Commission...read it...

Then re-think your logic....

Actually I'm wasting my time here!
But, however: Hoboh's logic is (as perfectly illustrated by your own observation) faulty, and yet, despite the official protestation from the EU that the Catalunya referendum problem is purely internal state affair, the EU's stance is 100% ruthlessly opposed to further fragmentation of its constituent parts, and the political ethos being driven by its (the EU's) three Presidents is towards greater integration, not less. So basically, Juncker's statement was two-faced to say the least.
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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by Lord Kangana » Wed Oct 04, 2017 8:05 pm

For the hard of understanding on here (and there are way too many) Catalan seperatism has as much to do with Brexit-style opinion as Stalin had to Liberalism.

Spanish central authority has always been reactionary and conservative (think Jacob Reese Mogg when he's being honest).

The Catalonians have been keen to point out that they want their independence to be based on a cosmopolitan inclusivity - so, and heres the thing, if you voted Brexit your views are more likely reflected in the views of Madrid than that of Barcelona.
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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by Lost Leopard Spot » Wed Oct 04, 2017 8:54 pm

Lord Kangana wrote:
Wed Oct 04, 2017 8:05 pm
For the hard of understanding on here (and there are way too many) Catalan seperatism has as much to do with Brexit-style opinion as Stalin had to Liberalism.

Spanish central authority has always been reactionary and conservative (think Jacob Reese Mogg when he's being honest).

The Catalonians have been keen to point out that they want their independence to be based on a cosmopolitan inclusivity - so, and heres the thing, if you voted Brexit your views are more likely reflected in the views of Madrid than that of Barcelona.
Absolute Bullshit!
Just because Spanish central authority has always been 'reactionary and conservative' (actually the very definition of fascist), does NOT mean that Brexit voters are more likely to be fascist. I know you'd like to think that, but those who support Catalan independence from Spain have a lot in common with those who voted for UK independence from the EU.
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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by Hoboh » Wed Oct 04, 2017 11:48 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Wed Oct 04, 2017 11:24 am
Hoboh wrote:
Tue Oct 03, 2017 9:17 am
“Today we have witnessed a nationalistic propaganda act, undemocratic; a coup attempt against Spanish democracy, and so a coup against Europe,” - tweet from Ramón Luis Valcárcel (a member of the European People’s Party)
The EU Commission issued a statement: “For the European Commission, as President Juncker has reiterated repeatedly, this is an internal matter for Spain that has to be dealt with in line with the constitutional order of Spain.” (or: nothing to do with us!)
They'll interfere with the internal politics of Poland and Hungary though
The Spanish Government thinks its an undemocratic coup against the ideals of the EU.
Common theme?

EU, EU, EU!

They couldn't' bully the UK about holding a referendum (albeit they are trying to bolt the stable door now) but God help anyone else who tries, don't like losing or even the thought of losing 'unity' do they? Why, people might just start questioning their existence and what the real aims of the Europhiles are.
Think through your logic here....really think it through....

The EU are trying to control everyone...they don't like breaking unity....they aren't democratic.....

Then read the quote you've posted from the EU Commission...read it...

Then re-think your logic....

Actually I'm wasting my time here!
Wasting time? Oh right, Junker wasn't keeping out of things so the EU did not have to condemn one of its member states for using Franco style tactics to terrorise its citizens then?

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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by Montreal Wanderer » Thu Oct 05, 2017 3:09 am

Lost Leopard Spot wrote:
Wed Oct 04, 2017 8:54 pm
Lord Kangana wrote:
Wed Oct 04, 2017 8:05 pm
For the hard of understanding on here (and there are way too many) Catalan seperatism has as much to do with Brexit-style opinion as Stalin had to Liberalism.

Spanish central authority has always been reactionary and conservative (think Jacob Reese Mogg when he's being honest).

The Catalonians have been keen to point out that they want their independence to be based on a cosmopolitan inclusivity - so, and heres the thing, if you voted Brexit your views are more likely reflected in the views of Madrid than that of Barcelona.
Absolute Bullshit!
Just because Spanish central authority has always been 'reactionary and conservative' (actually the very definition of fascist), does NOT mean that Brexit voters are more likely to be fascist. I know you'd like to think that, but those who support Catalan independence from Spain have a lot in common with those who voted for UK independence from the EU.
I think you may have missed LK's point, Spotty. Catalonia is a constituent part of a sovereign nation, Spain, which wishes to retain its control over all its territory. Brexit voters appeared to wish to re-establish the UK as a wholly independent sovereign state, without external obligations. The views therefore could be said to be similar. The UK government took very similar views to those of Spain re Catalonia on such questions as Scottish and Irish independence. Admittedly the UK heavy hand was a century or more earlier, but then we've always been ahead of those foreign chappies. Right?
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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by BWFC_Insane » Thu Oct 05, 2017 8:38 am

Lost Leopard Spot wrote:
Wed Oct 04, 2017 7:40 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Wed Oct 04, 2017 11:24 am
Hoboh wrote:
Tue Oct 03, 2017 9:17 am
“Today we have witnessed a nationalistic propaganda act, undemocratic; a coup attempt against Spanish democracy, and so a coup against Europe,” - tweet from Ramón Luis Valcárcel (a member of the European People’s Party)
The EU Commission issued a statement: “For the European Commission, as President Juncker has reiterated repeatedly, this is an internal matter for Spain that has to be dealt with in line with the constitutional order of Spain.” (or: nothing to do with us!)
They'll interfere with the internal politics of Poland and Hungary though
The Spanish Government thinks its an undemocratic coup against the ideals of the EU.
Common theme?

EU, EU, EU!

They couldn't' bully the UK about holding a referendum (albeit they are trying to bolt the stable door now) but God help anyone else who tries, don't like losing or even the thought of losing 'unity' do they? Why, people might just start questioning their existence and what the real aims of the Europhiles are.
Think through your logic here....really think it through....

The EU are trying to control everyone...they don't like breaking unity....they aren't democratic.....

Then read the quote you've posted from the EU Commission...read it...

Then re-think your logic....

Actually I'm wasting my time here!
But, however: Hoboh's logic is (as perfectly illustrated by your own observation) faulty, and yet, despite the official protestation from the EU that the Catalunya referendum problem is purely internal state affair, the EU's stance is 100% ruthlessly opposed to further fragmentation of its constituent parts, and the political ethos being driven by its (the EU's) three Presidents is towards greater integration, not less. So basically, Juncker's statement was two-faced to say the least.
Its opposed to further fragmentation of the EU. Aye. I mean obviously. However, the rest, just because you think it, doesn't mean its true. I love the way you use "ruthlessly". What was the EU's view on Scotlands vote by the way?

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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by Bruce Rioja » Thu Oct 05, 2017 11:48 am

Lost Leopard Spot wrote:
Wed Oct 04, 2017 8:54 pm
Lord Kangana wrote:
Wed Oct 04, 2017 8:05 pm
For the hard of understanding on here (and there are way too many) Catalan seperatism has as much to do with Brexit-style opinion as Stalin had to Liberalism.

Spanish central authority has always been reactionary and conservative (think Jacob Reese Mogg when he's being honest).

The Catalonians have been keen to point out that they want their independence to be based on a cosmopolitan inclusivity - so, and heres the thing, if you voted Brexit your views are more likely reflected in the views of Madrid than that of Barcelona.
Absolute Bullshit!
Just because Spanish central authority has always been 'reactionary and conservative' (actually the very definition of fascist), does NOT mean that Brexit voters are more likely to be fascist. I know you'd like to think that, but those who support Catalan independence from Spain have a lot in common with those who voted for UK independence from the EU.
Serious question, Spots. If the Catalans are granted independence, what might the future hold for the Basques?
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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by BWFC_Insane » Thu Oct 05, 2017 12:13 pm

Hoboh wrote:
Wed Oct 04, 2017 11:48 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Wed Oct 04, 2017 11:24 am
Hoboh wrote:
Tue Oct 03, 2017 9:17 am
“Today we have witnessed a nationalistic propaganda act, undemocratic; a coup attempt against Spanish democracy, and so a coup against Europe,” - tweet from Ramón Luis Valcárcel (a member of the European People’s Party)
The EU Commission issued a statement: “For the European Commission, as President Juncker has reiterated repeatedly, this is an internal matter for Spain that has to be dealt with in line with the constitutional order of Spain.” (or: nothing to do with us!)
They'll interfere with the internal politics of Poland and Hungary though
The Spanish Government thinks its an undemocratic coup against the ideals of the EU.
Common theme?

EU, EU, EU!

They couldn't' bully the UK about holding a referendum (albeit they are trying to bolt the stable door now) but God help anyone else who tries, don't like losing or even the thought of losing 'unity' do they? Why, people might just start questioning their existence and what the real aims of the Europhiles are.
Think through your logic here....really think it through....

The EU are trying to control everyone...they don't like breaking unity....they aren't democratic.....

Then read the quote you've posted from the EU Commission...read it...

Then re-think your logic....

Actually I'm wasting my time here!
Wasting time? Oh right, Junker wasn't keeping out of things so the EU did not have to condemn one of its member states for using Franco style tactics to terrorise its citizens then?
You do realise that is about as bad a case of confirmation bias as you can ever see?

You have a view...find something that contradicts that view, find a way to make it fit your view.

Its as bad as the nutjobs who try and deny global warming...they find one scientist out of a thousand who will support their view and jump up and down whilst insisting that every single other scientist is part of some massive, global conspiracy and lying to protect their careers......without ever thinking "is it actually possibly I may just be a stubbornly wrong nutjob".

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lm Re: The Politics Thread

Post by Lost Leopard Spot » Thu Oct 05, 2017 12:43 pm

Bruce Rioja wrote:
Thu Oct 05, 2017 11:48 am
Lost Leopard Spot wrote:
Wed Oct 04, 2017 8:54 pm
Lord Kangana wrote:
Wed Oct 04, 2017 8:05 pm
For the hard of understanding on here (and there are way too many) Catalan seperatism has as much to do with Brexit-style opinion as Stalin had to Liberalism.

Spanish central authority has always been reactionary and conservative (think Jacob Reese Mogg when he's being honest).

The Catalonians have been keen to point out that they want their independence to be based on a cosmopolitan inclusivity - so, and heres the thing, if you voted Brexit your views are more likely reflected in the views of Madrid than that of Barcelona.
Absolute Bullshit!
Just because Spanish central authority has always been 'reactionary and conservative' (actually the very definition of fascist), does NOT mean that Brexit voters are more likely to be fascist. I know you'd like to think that, but those who support Catalan independence from Spain have a lot in common with those who voted for UK independence from the EU.
Serious question, Spots. If the Catalans are granted independence, what might the future hold for the Basques?
A completely different proposition there Bruce. The Catalans have the luxury of once having had a state, and have their own language, and a now autonomous region all contained within a single nation (apart from the language aspect, quite synonymous with Scotland's situation).
The Basques however are a people with their own language who have never had a nation state (if you exclude Aragon as not being Basque, or the even more obscure example of the County of Pamplona), and are situate across an international frontier [Spain and France]... More like the Kurds than the Catalans and therefore much more difficult to get either domestic or international recognition in their case.
PS the Kurds in the past have had many internationally recognised states, including one that once encompassed ALL of the Kurdish peoples - the leader of that particular state was a bloke called (at least in English) Saladin [an-Nasir Salah ad-Din Yusuf ibn Ayyub]
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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by Lord Kangana » Thu Oct 05, 2017 1:23 pm

Catalonia actually straddles the Pyrenees in the east, much the same as the Basque Country does in the west.

The difference is that in France there isn't the same recent history of suppression of minorities as in Spain (indeed, regionalism has been a part of French Government policy for decades now), so on neither coast is there any real support for seperatism, despite both cultures being trumpeted in their repsective areas.

You see the odd 'Occitan Libre' piece of grafitti or stickers, across the whole South West, but it's symbolism and theres no great movement for anything approaching autonomy.
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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by Lost Leopard Spot » Thu Oct 05, 2017 1:46 pm

Occitan (or Provencal) is a very closely related language to Catalan. It is, however, not Catalan. Neither do supporters of Catalunyan independence wish a "cross-border" state, but merely for the present autonomous region (entirely within the boundaries of Spain) to gain nationhood.
The Basques on the other hand have a language that crosses the international frontier and Basque independence movements envisage a 'Greater Euskadi' that defies any present day boundaries - whether regional, provincial, autonomous or international.

PS. Admittedly back in the fourth century, Septimania (on the French side of the Pyrenees) was attached to the Spanish Visigothic kingdom. But that was nothing to do with Catalonia, it was merely an oupost of the then shrunken empire of 'Gothia' that encompassed lands from Greece, Romania, Hungary, Italy, France and Spain (in modern terms).
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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by Bruce Rioja » Thu Oct 05, 2017 2:08 pm

Hope I haven't opened a can of worms here but thanks for the answers - they're very interesting.
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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by Lost Leopard Spot » Thu Oct 05, 2017 3:17 pm

Just seen this inexplicable (within the context) question posed to me...
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Thu Oct 05, 2017 8:38 am
What was the EU's view on Scotlands vote by the way?
Exactly the same as their view on Catalonia's.
1. They didn't want it to happen.
2. Their public statements involved the phrases "an internal matter", "nothing to do with the EU."
3. But as was made abundantly clear that the EU was against the separatists, and that neither nation would automatically gain EU membership, nor be guaranteed a roadmap to normality and any future membership would be entirely dependent on Eurozone, Schengen, and every other form of centralist policy available to the EU (and specifically including reduced representation within the European Parliament).
Why? What did you think their view was???
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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by TANGODANCER » Thu Oct 05, 2017 3:19 pm

The expression "It's complicated" might have been coined to describe Spain in general. It's particularly relevant when discussing the Basques.
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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by BWFC_Insane » Thu Oct 05, 2017 4:12 pm

Lost Leopard Spot wrote:
Thu Oct 05, 2017 3:17 pm
Just seen this inexplicable (within the context) question posed to me...
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Thu Oct 05, 2017 8:38 am
What was the EU's view on Scotlands vote by the way?
Exactly the same as their view on Catalonia's.
1. They didn't want it to happen.
2. Their public statements involved the phrases "an internal matter", "nothing to do with the EU."
3. But as was made abundantly clear that the EU was against the separatists, and that neither nation would automatically gain EU membership, nor be guaranteed a roadmap to normality and any future membership would be entirely dependent on Eurozone, Schengen, and every other form of centralist policy available to the EU (and specifically including reduced representation within the European Parliament).
Why? What did you think their view was???
I recall their position was non-committal.

I believe they made the point that for Scotland as an independent nation to gain EU membership it would require approval of all EU member states. And they pointed out that Spain were unlikely to be persuaded (for obvious reasons).

Now, I would read that as the EU accepting the democratic process in the UK. Accepting that they couldn't change it. And further accepting the differences amongst their members. I also think it was right of them to point out the fact to the people of Scotland re EU membership (a very obvious one) that perhaps national politicians were misleading them on.

You see all that as the EU trying to exert control on everyone in an ever tightening grip on European nations. Like I said to Hoboh I see using the EU position on Spain/Catalonia and Scotland as one of the most ridiculous confirmation bias exercises going. I'm sure you will disagree.

However, if we take the facts rather than an interpretation of them. The EU supported the democratic process and chose not to interfere. They pointed out the process for becoming members as a new independent state.

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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by Lost Leopard Spot » Thu Oct 05, 2017 4:22 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Thu Oct 05, 2017 4:12 pm
Lost Leopard Spot wrote:
Thu Oct 05, 2017 3:17 pm
Just seen this inexplicable (within the context) question posed to me...
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Thu Oct 05, 2017 8:38 am
What was the EU's view on Scotlands vote by the way?
Exactly the same as their view on Catalonia's.
1. They didn't want it to happen.
2. Their public statements involved the phrases "an internal matter", "nothing to do with the EU."
3. But as was made abundantly clear that the EU was against the separatists, and that neither nation would automatically gain EU membership, nor be guaranteed a roadmap to normality and any future membership would be entirely dependent on Eurozone, Schengen, and every other form of centralist policy available to the EU (and specifically including reduced representation within the European Parliament).
Why? What did you think their view was???
I recall their position was non-committal.

I believe they made the point that for Scotland as an independent nation to gain EU membership it would require approval of all EU member states. And they pointed out that Spain were unlikely to be persuaded (for obvious reasons).

Now, I would read that as the EU accepting the democratic process in the UK. Accepting that they couldn't change it. And further accepting the differences amongst their members. I also think it was right of them to point out the fact to the people of Scotland re EU membership (a very obvious one) that perhaps national politicians were misleading them on.

You see all that as the EU trying to exert control on everyone in an ever tightening grip on European nations. Like I said to Hoboh I see using the EU position on Spain/Catalonia and Scotland as one of the most ridiculous confirmation bias exercises going. I'm sure you will disagree.

However, if we take the facts rather than an interpretation of them. The EU supported the democratic process and chose not to interfere. They pointed out the process for becoming members as a new independent state.
Neither Spain nor the EU "supported the democratic process" as you put it. At best the EU were neutral for both Scotland and Catalonia on any democratic process, whilst the UK allowed the democratic process in the case of Scotland to proceed, and Spain has, is, and will continue to oppose and frustrate any democratic process where Catalonia is concerned.
Those are the facts. Any 'confirmation bias' going on is occurring not only with Hoboh's, but your head too.
And, just to put the record straight, can you point out even one instance of the EU supporting a Catalonia independence referendum, with quotes and sources etc. - I'll pre-empt you, no you can't, because they haven't.
Last edited by Lost Leopard Spot on Thu Oct 05, 2017 4:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by BWFC_Insane » Thu Oct 05, 2017 4:29 pm

Lost Leopard Spot wrote:
Thu Oct 05, 2017 4:22 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Thu Oct 05, 2017 4:12 pm
Lost Leopard Spot wrote:
Thu Oct 05, 2017 3:17 pm
Just seen this inexplicable (within the context) question posed to me...
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Thu Oct 05, 2017 8:38 am
What was the EU's view on Scotlands vote by the way?
Exactly the same as their view on Catalonia's.
1. They didn't want it to happen.
2. Their public statements involved the phrases "an internal matter", "nothing to do with the EU."
3. But as was made abundantly clear that the EU was against the separatists, and that neither nation would automatically gain EU membership, nor be guaranteed a roadmap to normality and any future membership would be entirely dependent on Eurozone, Schengen, and every other form of centralist policy available to the EU (and specifically including reduced representation within the European Parliament).
Why? What did you think their view was???
I recall their position was non-committal.

I believe they made the point that for Scotland as an independent nation to gain EU membership it would require approval of all EU member states. And they pointed out that Spain were unlikely to be persuaded (for obvious reasons).

Now, I would read that as the EU accepting the democratic process in the UK. Accepting that they couldn't change it. And further accepting the differences amongst their members. I also think it was right of them to point out the fact to the people of Scotland re EU membership (a very obvious one) that perhaps national politicians were misleading them on.

You see all that as the EU trying to exert control on everyone in an ever tightening grip on European nations. Like I said to Hoboh I see using the EU position on Spain/Catalonia and Scotland as one of the most ridiculous confirmation bias exercises going. I'm sure you will disagree.

However, if we take the facts rather than an interpretation of them. The EU supported the democratic process and chose not to interfere. They pointed out the process for becoming members as a new independent state.
Neither Spain nor the EU "supported the democratic process" as you put it. At best the EU were neutral for both Scotland and Catalonia on any democratic process, whilst the UK allowed the democratic process in the case of Scotland to proceed, and Spain has, is, and will continue to oppose and frustrate any democratic process where Catalonia is concerned.
Those are the facts. Any 'confirmation bias' going on is occurring not only with Hoboh's, but your head too.
By supported I mean "did not oppose".

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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by Lost Leopard Spot » Thu Oct 05, 2017 4:36 pm

I've just edited my own post, which is now outdated. Support and Not Opposing are two entirely different kettles of fish.
Hoboh is confusing Not Opposing with Actively Hostile To.
My view, which I believe is closer in accordance to the facts, is that Not Opposing is similar to Not Supporting.
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