The Politics Thread

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Who will you be voting for?

Labour
12
40%
Conservatives
11
37%
Liberal Democrats
2
7%
UK Independence Party (UKIP)
0
No votes
Green Party
3
10%
Plaid Cymru
0
No votes
Other
1
3%
Planet Hobo
1
3%
 
Total votes: 30

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Re: lm Re: The Politics Thread

Post by Montreal Wanderer » Thu Oct 05, 2017 5:05 pm

Lost Leopard Spot wrote:
Thu Oct 05, 2017 12:43 pm
Bruce Rioja wrote:
Thu Oct 05, 2017 11:48 am
Lost Leopard Spot wrote:
Wed Oct 04, 2017 8:54 pm
Lord Kangana wrote:
Wed Oct 04, 2017 8:05 pm
For the hard of understanding on here (and there are way too many) Catalan seperatism has as much to do with Brexit-style opinion as Stalin had to Liberalism.

Spanish central authority has always been reactionary and conservative (think Jacob Reese Mogg when he's being honest).

The Catalonians have been keen to point out that they want their independence to be based on a cosmopolitan inclusivity - so, and heres the thing, if you voted Brexit your views are more likely reflected in the views of Madrid than that of Barcelona.
Absolute Bullshit!
Just because Spanish central authority has always been 'reactionary and conservative' (actually the very definition of fascist), does NOT mean that Brexit voters are more likely to be fascist. I know you'd like to think that, but those who support Catalan independence from Spain have a lot in common with those who voted for UK independence from the EU.
Serious question, Spots. If the Catalans are granted independence, what might the future hold for the Basques?
A completely different proposition there Bruce. The Catalans have the luxury of once having had a state, and have their own language, and a now autonomous region all contained within a single nation (apart from the language aspect, quite synonymous with Scotland's situation).
The Basques however are a people with their own language who have never had a nation state (if you exclude Aragon as not being Basque, or the even more obscure example of the County of Pamplona), and are situate across an international frontier [Spain and France]... More like the Kurds than the Catalans and therefore much more difficult to get either domestic or international recognition in their case.
PS the Kurds in the past have had many internationally recognised states, including one that once encompassed ALL of the Kurdish peoples - the leader of that particular state was a bloke called (at least in English) Saladin [an-Nasir Salah ad-Din Yusuf ibn Ayyub]
While Saladin was probably the most famous ethnic Kurd in history, did the (rather vast) areas he ruled include what we now call the Kurdish homeland or Kurdistan, which I thought was rather north of his domains? I could be wrong.
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Re: lm Re: The Politics Thread

Post by Lost Leopard Spot » Thu Oct 05, 2017 5:41 pm

Montreal Wanderer wrote:
Thu Oct 05, 2017 5:05 pm
Lost Leopard Spot wrote:
Thu Oct 05, 2017 12:43 pm
Bruce Rioja wrote:
Thu Oct 05, 2017 11:48 am
Lost Leopard Spot wrote:
Wed Oct 04, 2017 8:54 pm
Lord Kangana wrote:
Wed Oct 04, 2017 8:05 pm
For the hard of understanding on here (and there are way too many) Catalan seperatism has as much to do with Brexit-style opinion as Stalin had to Liberalism.

Spanish central authority has always been reactionary and conservative (think Jacob Reese Mogg when he's being honest).

The Catalonians have been keen to point out that they want their independence to be based on a cosmopolitan inclusivity - so, and heres the thing, if you voted Brexit your views are more likely reflected in the views of Madrid than that of Barcelona.
Absolute Bullshit!
Just because Spanish central authority has always been 'reactionary and conservative' (actually the very definition of fascist), does NOT mean that Brexit voters are more likely to be fascist. I know you'd like to think that, but those who support Catalan independence from Spain have a lot in common with those who voted for UK independence from the EU.
Serious question, Spots. If the Catalans are granted independence, what might the future hold for the Basques?
A completely different proposition there Bruce. The Catalans have the luxury of once having had a state, and have their own language, and a now autonomous region all contained within a single nation (apart from the language aspect, quite synonymous with Scotland's situation).
The Basques however are a people with their own language who have never had a nation state (if you exclude Aragon as not being Basque, or the even more obscure example of the County of Pamplona), and are situate across an international frontier [Spain and France]... More like the Kurds than the Catalans and therefore much more difficult to get either domestic or international recognition in their case.
PS the Kurds in the past have had many internationally recognised states, including one that once encompassed ALL of the Kurdish peoples - the leader of that particular state was a bloke called (at least in English) Saladin [an-Nasir Salah ad-Din Yusuf ibn Ayyub]
While Saladin was probably the most famous ethnic Kurd in history, did the (rather vast) areas he ruled include what we now call the Kurdish homeland or Kurdistan, which I thought was rather north of his domains? I could be wrong.
As in many things in life, you are neither wrong nor right. The Kurds, like their neighbours the Turkomens, and their political, religious, ethic, and cultural enemies - the Iranians, Armenians, and other near-eastern peoples - were basically migratory during the events of the tenth to fourteenth centurys. And although the vast number of Kurds today live north of Saladin's domains, during the Ayyub and Mameluke period the majority dwelled in the exact same territory that ISIS claimed as their state.
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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by Lord Kangana » Thu Oct 05, 2017 6:17 pm

As an interesting aside, and despite the constant tooing and froing about the EU's position on cessation on here, neither Scotland nor Catalonia discussed leaving the EU as part of their cessation plans.
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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by Lost Leopard Spot » Thu Oct 05, 2017 6:30 pm

Lord Kangana wrote:
Thu Oct 05, 2017 6:17 pm
As an interesting aside, and despite the constant tooing and froing about the EU's position on cessation on here, neither Scotland nor Catalonia discussed leaving the EU as part of their cessation plans.
...and yet the EU were at pains to point out that they would automatically leave the EU as a result, and that the path back into the EU would be hard.
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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by Lord Kangana » Thu Oct 05, 2017 6:39 pm

As I say, the position of both is to wish to remain a part of the greater whole.
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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by Lost Leopard Spot » Thu Oct 05, 2017 6:45 pm

...
Last edited by Lost Leopard Spot on Thu Oct 05, 2017 6:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by Lost Leopard Spot » Thu Oct 05, 2017 6:50 pm

Lord Kangana wrote:
Thu Oct 05, 2017 6:39 pm
As I say, the position of both is to wish to remain a part of the greater whole.
And as I said the Greater Whole rejects their Cessationist aspirations as being non conducive to an even greater (fascist) whole.
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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by Hoboh » Thu Oct 05, 2017 7:09 pm

I remember some half nit wit coming out with a pathetic comment to the formation of a European/EU army/police force.

Well surprise, surprise they already exist so all it needs is a few teaks to the rules and Bob's your uncle.
The European Gendarmerie Force (EUROGENDFOR) is a Multinational Police Force, born to participate to the stabilization of crisis and conflict areas outside the European Union, where it contributes to the protection of population, the upgrade of Human Rights, and the reestablishment of the Rule of Law. EUROGENDFOR’s objective is also to contribute to the European Union's area of freedom, security, and justice by mitigating threats and risks such as international terrorism, organized crime, or massive smuggling of migrants.
The European Gendarmerie Force is a pre-organised, robust, and rapidly deployable Multinational Police Force composed of police officers with military status. It is designed to cover the full range of police assignments, through executive policing and/or support to the development of local police forces. “Gendarmerie” means a police force with military status. For centuries, Gendarmes have served civilians in their respective countries by performing the full spectrum of police duties, from community policing to criminal investigations and overall public security.
EUROGENDFOR Members States are France, Italy, the Netherlands, Poland, Portugal, Romania, and Spain. Lithuania is a Partner Member, while Turkey is an Observer. The European Gendarmerie Force, relying on more than 360,000 police officers throughout the European Union and reflecting the highest EU police standards, combines and benefits from the long experience of each of its members. This turns EUROGENDFOR into a useful tool at the disposal of EU, as well as other international organisations.
The European Gendarmerie Force may be placed, both under civilian authority and under military command, at the disposal of the European Union (EU), the United Nations (UN), the Organisation for Security and Co-operation in Europe (OSCE), the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation (NATO), and other international organisations or ad hoc coalitions. Currently, EUROGENDFOR is engaged in the Resolute Support Mission in Afghanistan, the EUTM mission in the Central African Republic, and the EUCAP Sahel Mali mission. It was previously deployed in the EU operation ALTHEA in Bosnia & Herzegovina, the UN mission MINUSTAH in Haiti, the NATO ISAF in Afghanistan, as well as the EUFOR RCA and EUAM Ukraine missions.
Source their own website. http://www.eurogendfor.org/
When people talk about an “EU army”, they seem to mean armed forces recruited by, and under the central command of, an EU organisation which could deploy them as it sees fit.
Military operations are already managed at EU level. The first of these began in 2003 in the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia under the control of the EU Political and Security Committee of member countries’ ambassadors. Other operations followed in the Congo, and Bosnia Herzegovina in 2004—that one is still going on.
The EU currently has six ongoing military operations in non-EU countries, and another dozen ‘civilian missions’.
An important difference between these operations and an “EU army” is that they rely on member countries to provide the boots on the ground. The Union doesn’t directly employ soldiers.
Its military operations, and stand-by ‘Battlegroups’, are formed from various armies working together.
On a practical level, this shows up in soldiers on EU missions wearing EU badges on their regular army uniforms.
In terms of high-level organisation, the EU Military Committee is made up of Chiefs of Defence from each country. The EU Military Staff reporting to it are on secondment from the armed forces of member states—the European Commission told us that the dozen UK military personnel on the Military Staff “remain employees of the UK Government”.
EU military operations are also financed from a separate pot of money from the centralised EU budget.
EU member states can have closer cooperation between their armies
Member countries who want greater defence cooperation can work together without the involvement or backing of all members. This is referred to as ‘permanent structured cooperation’.
These countries can then coordinate on a number of areas including operational planning, training and sharing equipment.
Leave campaigners have claimed that the UK would be forced into an ‘EU army’ under the rules allowing for these activities.
But even if you think this kind of cooperation amounted to an EU army, which isn’t clear, it’s entirely optional. Member countries also have the option to leave these agreements further down the line if they wish to.
So far no EU countries have taken up this option.
Some people would like an EU army, but there aren’t concrete plans for one
Proposals reported in May 2016 as “the first step towards an EU army” referred to a push for permanent structured cooperation, to be tabled after the UK membership referendum.
There are plenty more examples of EU politicians pushing for more defence integration.
Proposals put forward in 2013 involved “assets directly purchased, owned and operated by the Union”, although the EU said that this referred to non-military equipment.
These mirror the desire of the President of the European Commission, Jean-Claude Juncker, for “at least some integrated defence capacities”. He’s also made a more specific call for a joint EU army, in an interview with the German newspaper Welt am Sonntag.
A paper published by his European People’s Party political grouping called for “an EU strategic civilian and military headquarters” and, in the long run, “European stand-by forces under Union command”.
So we know that some players on the EU political scene would like the Union to be able to use military force on its own. Accordingly, experts in European issues and defence policy have been debating whether or not it’s realistic and a good idea.
But, politically, it seems a fairly distant prospect at present. The 2013 proposals we mentioned, for instance, were welcomed by the European Council of national leaders on the pointed condition “that the capabilities are owned and operated by the Member States”.
The European Council has given defence and security policy more attention recently. After a recent meeting, it said that the EU should be doing things like “fostering greater and more systematic European defence cooperation to deliver key capabilities, including through EU funds”.
Source full fact.

the EU have the basis for and are working towards their own security apparatus, a few tweaks and just like the Catalonian force found out, greater powers will be deployed to stem any trouble in member states, surely a recipe for trouble.

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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by Hoboh » Thu Oct 05, 2017 7:17 pm


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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by Bruce Rioja » Thu Oct 05, 2017 9:13 pm

Lord Kangana wrote:
Thu Oct 05, 2017 6:39 pm
As I say, the position of both is to wish to remain a part of the greater whole.
That's as maybe but it isn't/wasn't their call, is it?
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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by Lord Kangana » Thu Oct 05, 2017 10:15 pm

Absolutely not, but it illustrates in a very unambiguous way the difference between those 2 forms of cessation and that which we're experiencing in this country.
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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by Abdoulaye's Twin » Fri Oct 06, 2017 5:17 am

Hoboh, I note from that list of countries that with the exception of France (who have a dubious record anyway), couldn't defend themselves against a cold. Given Trump as well, it's hardly surprising they feel the need to band together for mutual protection. Don't think it's the right way, but understandable.

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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by Hoboh » Fri Oct 06, 2017 11:15 am

Abdoulaye's Twin wrote:
Fri Oct 06, 2017 5:17 am
Hoboh, I note from that list of countries that with the exception of France (who have a dubious record anyway), couldn't defend themselves against a cold. Given Trump as well, it's hardly surprising they feel the need to band together for mutual protection. Don't think it's the right way, but understandable.
I presume you are mistaking the 'police force' with military type capability, i.e. Guardia Civil type with the actual military, no?
Oh and this was happening well pre-Trump.

You see, although some think I'm obsessed with the EU and stupid because we 'still have our independence', one does not need to be Einstein to work out the slow creep towards the point independent states become nothing more than parish councils in the EU state and the sham of a European parliament that only really delays anything like the house of Lords will be held up as 'democracy'.
Same happens here,
Labour, some decent ideas lost in the mire of the important people in positions, looking to turn us into a Marxist state and we all know how they turn out.
Tory, all about freedoms until it curtails the earning power of the rich backers and pals and to be frank, full of hot air.
A legal system that stinks from interfering guide lines to judges down to no win, no fee leeches, latest scam, cavity wall compo.
An education system suffering just like the NHS from decades of political miss-management and interference, defence run down while we pursue the latest 'national interest' all over the world, it stinks now, why make the capacity to make matters worse larger?
Possibly the only 'sweetener' in this, is Merkel having her bum slapped and the French poser heading for internal strife with his employment reforms to calm things down for a while, unfortunately it may have the effect of Juncker and co being given more slack.
Last edited by Hoboh on Fri Oct 06, 2017 11:41 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by BWFC_Insane » Fri Oct 06, 2017 12:47 pm

Hoboh wrote:
Fri Oct 06, 2017 11:15 am
Abdoulaye's Twin wrote:
Fri Oct 06, 2017 5:17 am
Hoboh, I note from that list of countries that with the exception of France (who have a dubious record anyway), couldn't defend themselves against a cold. Given Trump as well, it's hardly surprising they feel the need to band together for mutual protection. Don't think it's the right way, but understandable.
I presume you are mistaking the 'police force' with military type capability, i.e. Guardia Civil type with the actual military, no?
Oh and this was happening well pre-Trump.

You see, although some think I'm obsessed with the EU and stupid because we 'still have our independence', one does not need to be Einstein to work out the slow creep towards the point independent states become nothing more than parish councils in the EU state and the sham of a European parliament that only really delays anything like the house of Lords will be held up as 'democracy'.
Same happens here,
Labour, some decent ideas lost in the mire of the important people in positions, looking to turn us into a Marxist state and we all know how they turn out.
Tory, all about freedoms until it curtails the earning power of the rich backers and pals and to be frank, full of hot air.
A legal system that stinks from interfering guide lines to judges down to no win, no fee leeches, latest scam, cavity wall compo.
An education system suffering just like the NHS from decades of political miss-management and interference, defence run down while we pursue the latest 'national interest' all over the world, it stinks now, why make the capacity to make matters worse larger?
Possibly the only 'sweetener' in this, is Merkel having her bum slapped and the French poser heading for internal strife with his employment reforms to calm things down for a while, unfortunately it may have the effect of Juncker and co being given more slack.
The problem is you see everything through one very narrow tunnel.

Is co-operation on security and policing between European nations not a good thing? It is. But because it happens through the EU you see that as a bad thing. Whereas I think the fact the EU can pull together these initiatives and make them happen to make us all safer and ensure information and resources are pooled is a good thing.

You have decided that the EU is a power hungry neo-liberal machine determined to do anything it can to further its power and influence. Whereas I see it as a collection of nations that are trying to make Europe a better place. Are there elements within any organisation with different slants on its objectives? Sure.

But I can see your view, I understand it. Though I think it is wildly exaggerated. The trouble is, and you're not going to listen to this, but whatever, every single thing that happens, you see through one lens, and one lens only. And I go back to, you're playing one big game of confirmation bias.

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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by Lord Kangana » Fri Oct 06, 2017 6:51 pm

In a country where the use of foodbanks crested 1 million this year, I'd be much more succint and say you're a f*ckin buffoon if you can't see the spreading of cost on defence with allies as an almost entirely positive thing.
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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by Hoboh » Sun Oct 08, 2017 7:56 am

Lord Kangana wrote:
Fri Oct 06, 2017 6:51 pm
In a country where the use of foodbanks crested 1 million this year, I'd be much more succint and say you're a f*ckin buffoon if you can't see the spreading of cost on defence with allies as an almost entirely positive thing.
And I'd say only a complete tit would blame spending on defence for food banks and that the complete tit would be very surprised, if he actually opened his eyes, to find not all the folk using them are the stereotypical poor souls who have lost their job through no fault of their own types. Oh and before said complete tit fires off more nonsense I do have experience/knowledge of these setups, not as a customer I hasten to add.
At least my tunnel vision on the EU is not as bad as being completely up its arse!

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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by Lord Kangana » Sun Oct 08, 2017 12:34 pm

Everythings fine. Foodbanks are primarily used as an alternative to Tesco.

Perhaps we'll fund defence spending from the Magic Money Tree as well?
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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by Lost Leopard Spot » Sun Oct 08, 2017 3:45 pm

Lord Kangana wrote:
Sun Oct 08, 2017 12:34 pm
Everythings fine. Foodbanks are primarily used as an alternative to Tesco.

Perhaps we'll fund defence spending from the Magic Money Tree as well?
Food banks v Defence spending!?
WTF? When did the government supply our food? Do I need to put in a retrospective claim on my Sainsburys's bills over all these years?

I wasn't aware that we'd instigated the NFB - sustenance free at the point of supply.
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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by Lord Kangana » Sun Oct 08, 2017 7:22 pm

I appreciate the Trussell Trust is probably in your eyes an 'expert' body, and therefore not to be trusted, but they have drawn a direct correlation between food bank use and the introduction of Universal Credit.

Now forgive me here, but given the tone of conversation it seems necessary to constantly state the bleeding obvious, but Universal Credit is a state benefit is it not? And, as I recall defence spending is also a state responsibility?

I'm not sure about the Sainsbury's points, but why not give it a go? In the utopia created after quitting I'm sure Boris will promise something similar anyway.
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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by BWFC_Insane » Mon Oct 09, 2017 9:25 am

In my day if you couldn't afford to eat, you ad to went scrounging through bins for potato peels. Nowadays of course with EU elfandsafety nonsense you can't do that. But it were good that you'd have to kill yourself to eat or die. The good thing about that was it meant there wasn't nuffink for free. None of these ere scroungers. Also if you saw someone in your bin you could give them a good kicking and nobody said nothing. These days people want summit for nottin. I was at a foodbank once and you no wat...I saw some people there with kids. As my wife said to me at the time 'if you av kids you shouldn't be at a foodbank'. I agree. Eat the kids first. They are ur responsablty. Not mine or my wifes.

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