The Politics Thread

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Who will you be voting for?

Labour
13
41%
Conservatives
12
38%
Liberal Democrats
2
6%
UK Independence Party (UKIP)
0
No votes
Green Party
3
9%
Plaid Cymru
0
No votes
Other
1
3%
Planet Hobo
1
3%
 
Total votes: 32

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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by Prufrock » Thu Nov 30, 2017 7:41 pm

Lost Leopard Spot wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 6:30 pm
Prufrock wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 6:24 pm
Lost Leopard Spot wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 1:15 pm
Did none of you read what I wrote? :conf:
If the Brexit bill ends up at £60bn (which it won't anyway), that'll still be £20bn less than we would have given away scot-free to the fxckin EU anyway.

I'm pretty sure we got something in return for it, like.
I'm absolutely positive that you think that, like. So name something that we got for that enormous bribe that Canada, or the US, or South Korea, didn't, like.
Access to the single market without tariffs or non-tariff barriers.
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That it's going to lose its mind
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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by Prufrock » Thu Nov 30, 2017 7:43 pm

boltonboris wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 5:21 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 3:22 pm

Indeed. The fact our growth lags behind the majority if not all EU countries in 2017 is nothing to worry about.
Wait, have you seen the individual economies of most EU member states?

It's like saying France's growth is lagging compared to that of Laos.

The largest single economies, will usually always have slower growth than smaller countries in modern times
Hey, that argument looks familiar!

Sounds like something I would've said if you'd argued that, of all the continents, Europe had the slowest growth.
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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by Prufrock » Thu Nov 30, 2017 7:43 pm

Lost Leopard Spot wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 7:34 pm
Lost Leopard Spot wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 6:30 pm
Prufrock wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 6:24 pm
Lost Leopard Spot wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 1:15 pm
Did none of you read what I wrote? :conf:
If the Brexit bill ends up at £60bn (which it won't anyway), that'll still be £20bn less than we would have given away scot-free to the fxckin EU anyway.

I'm pretty sure we got something in return for it, like.
I'm absolutely positive that you think that, like. So name something that we got for that enormous bribe that Canada, or the US, or South Korea, didn't, like.
...and as usual, drumming my fingers waiting for an answer to this too.
Remoaners, good at coming up with questions, shit at answering questions.
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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by TANGODANCER » Thu Nov 30, 2017 7:49 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 3:22 pm
But its ok, we've got "our country back".
Is anybody actually saying or believing that? That is a real misnomer and so soft it's not even warranting sarcasm in contrast to reality. Here's something to debate, read it not as a rant, but an opinion and some facts:

We will never have our country "back" in the strict sense. It's impossible. We've already got all we're going to get. We were, at one stage, the greatest, most organised, lawful and role model country in the world. But, as the song says, "That was once upon a time, and that time's gone."What exactly will we have back, yestereday? We'll never have this year back, or even this week, even today...My kids and grandkids will never have the country, way of life, work, play or even religion I had. How many churches, cinemas, public houses, department stores, libraries, facilites and shops are gone from Bolton alone never to return? Was it Napoleon who said "The British are a nation of shopkeepers"? I doubt he meant tattoo parlors, pawn shops, bookmakers, Bingo halls or tanning salons, or a thousand different places to stuff your faces. I won't even bother talking railways, transport, gas and electricity offices and banks we once dealt with in the town and are now just faceless numbers on multiple keyboards and telephones that let us talk to other multiple keyboards and telephones every day of our lives. Religion isn't dead, yet Churches are lost because of lack of support, but, also as a sign of change,the fact remains there are Twenty Three listed mosques in Bolton and Farnworth alone at this time supported, maintained and function al. How many Christian churches are there that you can actually vist at any time other than a couple of designated hours each week? The rest of the time they are closed because of fear of the inevitable burglary that would strip them cleaner than vultures on a carcase in a couple of hours if left unattended. The days of churches as welcome places with ever-open-doors, as they were in my youth are long gone. Not so much the fault of the church authorities as the soft wrist slapping law and order big-wigs who won't pay the police to do their job. For years jobs like church cleaning, providing flowers, polishing brass, collecting funds etc, have been done by unpaid volunteers from the parishes, even playing the organ at one time. Did I hear somebody say "Church of England"? Islam orgasnised religion is making us look like pagans in "Our Country".

So what exactly of our country do we want back? It's either history, impractical or we can't afford it. Probably every foreign tourist ever who has visited "our country" has seen more of our tradition than I have, and I've lived here 78 years. I'm your total "Yesterday Man"...but not a fool. I've loved a life, along with the Palais, that's gone into retirement never to come back.

What we/you/my kids and grandkids have/will have, is the brave new world that government has created; a world where diminishing everything and cost cutting is the order of the day, Hospitals, Services, Police, even armed forces are all on cutback after cutback. You need look no further than our own town where the organisation and administration has seen every major retailers pack their bags and depart: Prestons, Whittaker/Beales,British Home Stores, Woolworths, Littlewoods in Farnworth, half-a-hundred market stall holders who could no longer afford the rates; and still the council talks cuts and rate rises on a daily basis. The great British tradition is a sideshow for foreign visitors with the cost of maintaining it all too mind-boggling to want to know.We're told that tourism is a major industry and does that. Okay, less cuts needed then?

Brexit won't mean a thing one way or the other unless the government bucks its ideas up. Our country back? Dream on...it's a government that governs and cares about what we have now that matters, not getting back something we haven't had since coal fires became extinct. In short, we need to go forwards, not back. That isn't impossible; needing much work, yes, but it can be done. I probably won't be around to see it mind... :wink:

Amen.
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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by Lost Leopard Spot » Thu Nov 30, 2017 7:56 pm

Prufrock wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 7:41 pm
Lost Leopard Spot wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 6:30 pm
Prufrock wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 6:24 pm
Lost Leopard Spot wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 1:15 pm
Did none of you read what I wrote? :conf:
If the Brexit bill ends up at £60bn (which it won't anyway), that'll still be £20bn less than we would have given away scot-free to the fxckin EU anyway.

I'm pretty sure we got something in return for it, like.
I'm absolutely positive that you think that, like. So name something that we got for that enormous bribe that Canada, or the US, or South Korea, didn't, like.
Access to the single market without tariffs or non-tariff barriers.
...and that's harmed their economy in what way exactly?
Are you saying the USA are begging the EU to let them be members?
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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by Prufrock » Thu Nov 30, 2017 8:44 pm

I answered your question.

As for your new one, it's almost as if we and the USA are different countries.
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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by boltonboris » Fri Dec 01, 2017 12:24 pm

Prufrock wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 7:43 pm
boltonboris wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 5:21 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 3:22 pm

Indeed. The fact our growth lags behind the majority if not all EU countries in 2017 is nothing to worry about.
Wait, have you seen the individual economies of most EU member states?

It's like saying France's growth is lagging compared to that of Laos.

The largest single economies, will usually always have slower growth than smaller countries in modern times
Hey, that argument looks familiar!

Sounds like something I would've said if you'd argued that, of all the continents, Europe had the slowest growth.
:wink:
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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by Rjs37 » Fri Dec 01, 2017 1:03 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 7:09 pm
Brexit has stunted our growth. That's hundreds of billions gone.
I'm glad you're at least saying "stunted our growth" now rather than talking about the GDP dropping. That's one step in the right direction. No forecast that I've seen has shown ANY indication of the GDP dropping.

Now let's examine this "hundreds of billions gone" phrase.
First, a quick google shows that the UK GDP in 2016 was 2.46 Trillion or 2,460 Billion.

10% of our 2016 GDP is 246 Billion aka "hundreds of billions". The brexit decision was made around 18 months ago. Please tell me where within this period we have lost out on 10% growth? The past 5 years:

2016: 1.8%
2015: 2.2%
2014: 3.1%
2013: 1.9%
2012: 1.3%

As you can see, our GDP growth rate was already dropping before any such referendum.
The IMF expects that we will have a growth of 1.7% this year with 1.5% next year.

Even if we say that Brexit has cost 1% of growth (very unlikely), that would be 24.6 Billion. So where is this hundreds of billions?

There is evidently a cost in Brexit, but throwing out ridiculous statements like above help nothing. If you'd instead said that it will cost us hundreds of billions going forward, then that's something that is very hard to dispute although just as unhelpful. It's like saying if I chose to go to a different University I would be earning an extra £50k pa. There's no way to actually quantify it.

It is impossible to say what the GDP growth would have been without Brexit. Forecasts get it wrong all the time, even more-so when they're trying to forecast for the long term. We'll never know the true cost of Brexit. So instead of perpetually waiting for that "I told you so" moment, lets try and actually make something of this Brexit.

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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by BWFC_Insane » Fri Dec 01, 2017 1:20 pm

Rjs37 wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2017 1:03 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 7:09 pm
Brexit has stunted our growth. That's hundreds of billions gone.
I'm glad you're at least saying "stunted our growth" now rather than talking about the GDP dropping. That's one step in the right direction. No forecast that I've seen has shown ANY indication of the GDP dropping.

Now let's examine this "hundreds of billions gone" phrase.
First, a quick google shows that the UK GDP in 2016 was 2.46 Trillion or 2,460 Billion.

10% of our 2016 GDP is 246 Billion aka "hundreds of billions". The brexit decision was made around 18 months ago. Please tell me where within this period we have lost out on 10% growth? The past 5 years:

2016: 1.8%
2015: 2.2%
2014: 3.1%
2013: 1.9%
2012: 1.3%

As you can see, our GDP growth rate was already dropping before any such referendum.
The IMF expects that we will have a growth of 1.7% this year with 1.5% next year.

Even if we say that Brexit has cost 1% of growth (very unlikely), that would be 24.6 Billion. So where is this hundreds of billions?

There is evidently a cost in Brexit, but throwing out ridiculous statements like above help nothing. If you'd instead said that it will cost us hundreds of billions going forward, then that's something that is very hard to dispute although just as unhelpful. It's like saying if I chose to go to a different University I would be earning an extra £50k pa. There's no way to actually quantify it.

It is impossible to say what the GDP growth would have been without Brexit. Forecasts get it wrong all the time, even more-so when they're trying to forecast for the long term. We'll never know the true cost of Brexit. So instead of perpetually waiting for that "I told you so" moment, lets try and actually make something of this Brexit.
If the current downgraded forecast is correct our economy with be £72Bn smaller by 2021 than it would have been under pre-Brexit conditions. It doesn't stop there. The reduction in the size of growth continues year on year.

And it should be pointed out that to my knowledge those forecasts currently all assume we will reach a trade agreement with the EU by 2019.

Ultimately that is hundreds of billions gone by the time we may start to reverse the train. And again, those projections are based more or less on best case scenarios now.

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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by Harry Genshaw » Fri Dec 01, 2017 5:42 pm

:
Rjs37 wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2017 1:03 pm
So instead of perpetually waiting for that "I told you so" moment, lets try and actually make something of this Brexit.
This. 100% this.

None of the parties are proposing anything other than following the result of the referendum, so like it or not, Brexit is happening.

Now I wouldn't trust Theresa May to run a church bake sale but right now she's the only show in town and I don't envy her job for a second. She's got Brexiteers who can't agree which way we should leave and Remainers who either won't accept it or disagree on how we should leave. Bizarre that 23 (?) Member states look more united than our one country.
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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by Lost Leopard Spot » Fri Dec 01, 2017 6:14 pm

27. Just saying. And they're hardly united. Greece and Germany, uh oh. Belgium and Spain fighting secessionists (politically speaking). The great Merkel laid low by her own coalition voters. Ireland battling tooth and claw to bring down any concessions the other 26 might consider.
And our one country being composed of four countries.

I am agreeing with your sentiment by the way, apart from them looking more united.
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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by BWFC_Insane » Sat Dec 02, 2017 8:54 am

Harry Genshaw wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2017 5:42 pm
:
Rjs37 wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2017 1:03 pm
So instead of perpetually waiting for that "I told you so" moment, lets try and actually make something of this Brexit.
This. 100% this.

None of the parties are proposing anything other than following the result of the referendum, so like it or not, Brexit is happening.

Now I wouldn't trust Theresa May to run a church bake sale but right now she's the only show in town and I don't envy her job for a second. She's got Brexiteers who can't agree which way we should leave and Remainers who either won't accept it or disagree on how we should leave. Bizarre that 23 (?) Member states look more united than our one country.
I really don't understand this sentiment. Something is a total shitshow of a mess but we should support it anyway? I just find that notion absolutely bizarre.

Why should I support something I fundamentally disagree with that is being carried out in a clearly haphazard and appalling manner?

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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by Harry Genshaw » Sat Dec 02, 2017 10:43 am

^ fine. Pish and moan all you like. It's happening. The government have to find the best Brexit solution, so we either reach a consensus of sorts or just sit on the sidelines being bitter. How's your preferred option going to help?
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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by TANGODANCER » Sat Dec 02, 2017 10:58 am

Insaney for P.M. Anybody who posts politics before nine in the morning must have been dreaming about em. ! :lol:
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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by Lost Leopard Spot » Sat Dec 02, 2017 4:23 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Sat Dec 02, 2017 8:54 am
Harry Genshaw wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2017 5:42 pm
:
Rjs37 wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2017 1:03 pm
So instead of perpetually waiting for that "I told you so" moment, lets try and actually make something of this Brexit.
This. 100% this.

None of the parties are proposing anything other than following the result of the referendum, so like it or not, Brexit is happening.

Now I wouldn't trust Theresa May to run a church bake sale but right now she's the only show in town and I don't envy her job for a second. She's got Brexiteers who can't agree which way we should leave and Remainers who either won't accept it or disagree on how we should leave. Bizarre that 23 (?) Member states look more united than our one country.
I really don't understand this sentiment. Something is a total shitshow of a mess but we should support it anyway? I just find that notion absolutely bizarre.

Why should I support something I fundamentally disagree with that is being carried out in a clearly haphazard and appalling manner?
It is being carried out in a haphazard and appalling manner precisely because people like you who clearly disagree with it are putting the boot in at every opportunity. People like Barnier, and Tusk, and Merkel, and the majority of MPs in this country deliberately trying to sabotage Brexit and turn the clock back. Mostly it's just media biased spin, but the fact that you are anti-democratic means fxck all to you, obviously. So long as you get your minority way, that's alright then... :roll:
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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by BWFC_Insane » Sat Dec 02, 2017 5:10 pm

Lost Leopard Spot wrote:
Sat Dec 02, 2017 4:23 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Sat Dec 02, 2017 8:54 am
Harry Genshaw wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2017 5:42 pm
:
Rjs37 wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2017 1:03 pm
So instead of perpetually waiting for that "I told you so" moment, lets try and actually make something of this Brexit.
This. 100% this.

None of the parties are proposing anything other than following the result of the referendum, so like it or not, Brexit is happening.

Now I wouldn't trust Theresa May to run a church bake sale but right now she's the only show in town and I don't envy her job for a second. She's got Brexiteers who can't agree which way we should leave and Remainers who either won't accept it or disagree on how we should leave. Bizarre that 23 (?) Member states look more united than our one country.
I really don't understand this sentiment. Something is a total shitshow of a mess but we should support it anyway? I just find that notion absolutely bizarre.

Why should I support something I fundamentally disagree with that is being carried out in a clearly haphazard and appalling manner?
It is being carried out in a haphazard and appalling manner precisely because people like you who clearly disagree with it are putting the boot in at every opportunity. People like Barnier, and Tusk, and Merkel, and the majority of MPs in this country deliberately trying to sabotage Brexit and turn the clock back. Mostly it's just media biased spin, but the fact that you are anti-democratic means fxck all to you, obviously. So long as you get your minority way, that's alright then... :roll:
Yes, the reason we've done no proper impact assessments is because I'm writing on a forum saying it's a shitshow.

Of course its totally clear now.

Christ Brexiteers are like a cult. You voted for it. This is what you're getting. It's nowt to do with me or anyone else who didn't vote for it. You wanted dicks like Davis taking us out wirh no proper preparation. In any other job these people would be sacked for ineptitude. They haven't done their jobs. Time to go.

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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by malcd1 » Sat Dec 02, 2017 5:42 pm

The way I see it is that the other 27 EU members are only united in wanting to get as much money out of the UK as possible. Every last penny if they can. We want to pay as little as possible for us to exit. This is called negotiations. We could well be in a shitshow in the future but Insanes middle name is hyperbole and if you don't agree with him you are clearly an idiot.

The Republic of Ireland have a very short memory (as well as all the other EU countries). They are playing hardball with us about everything yet the UK bailed them out in 2010 to the tune of £3.2bn (£14bn if you include loans by government owned banks). The UK are their main export country yet they act like dicks. feck em.

If there was another vote tomorrow I would definitely be voting Brexit. This corrupt and controlling organisation have been given too much power over all things European. Certainly not what anyone signed up to in the 1970's.
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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by TANGODANCER » Sat Dec 02, 2017 6:53 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Sat Dec 02, 2017 5:10 pm

Christ Brexiteers are like a cult. You voted for it. This is what you're getting. It's nowt to do with me or anyone else who didn't vote for it. You wanted dicks like Davis taking us out wirh no proper preparation. In any other job these people would be sacked for ineptitude. They haven't done their jobs. Time to go.
Of course we did, and of course we are. And in truth Insaney, you, like the rest of us had no clear idea what we were voting for good or bad. No use playing smartypants and adopting a "I told you all along" attitude now. We still don't know for sure, that's why we have a government to handle these things. Most of us voted to get away from Brussels and co ruling everything about us and take our decisions as a country for ourselves (that's what having our country back actually means, nothing more). The government decided it was the thing to do and gave us the vote. Cameron our then P.M, took the hump and resigned. The country voted to leave. We're leaving, whether you like it or no, yet already you're condemning anything you personally don't agree with as being canon law. It ain't mate, live with it.
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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by BWFC_Insane » Sat Dec 02, 2017 7:09 pm

TANGODANCER wrote:
Sat Dec 02, 2017 6:53 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Sat Dec 02, 2017 5:10 pm

Christ Brexiteers are like a cult. You voted for it. This is what you're getting. It's nowt to do with me or anyone else who didn't vote for it. You wanted dicks like Davis taking us out wirh no proper preparation. In any other job these people would be sacked for ineptitude. They haven't done their jobs. Time to go.
Of course we did, and of course we are. And in truth Insaney, you, like the rest of us had no clear idea what we were voting for good or bad. No use playing smartypants and adopting a "I told you all along" attitude now. We still don't know for sure, that's why we have a government to handle these things. Most of us voted to get away from Brussels and co ruling everything about us and take our decisions as a country for ourselves (that's what having our country back actually means, nothing more). The government decided it was the thing to do and gave us the vote. Cameron our then P.M, took the hump and resigned. The country voted to leave. We're leaving, whether you like it or no, yet already you're condemning anything you personally don't agree with as being canon law. It ain't mate, live with it.
You voted out. This is what you wanted and you're getting it. In a democracy I have the right to point out exactly what a mess this is. It isn't like we are talking in hindsight either.

And some armchair psychology. The reason LLS is getting so flustered and upset is because deep down he knows we are right. He will never admit it of course. He can't even admit it to himself. But he knows. He knows.

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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by Harry Genshaw » Sat Dec 02, 2017 7:19 pm

If Brexit is going to be such a disaster why aren't one of the parties promoting a remain campaign? I mean, they're supposed to be the experts yet neither Labour or the Liberals, who will have majority remainers in their camps, are talking about ignoring the referendum result
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