The Politics Thread

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Who will you be voting for?

Labour
13
41%
Conservatives
12
38%
Liberal Democrats
2
6%
UK Independence Party (UKIP)
0
No votes
Green Party
3
9%
Plaid Cymru
0
No votes
Other
1
3%
Planet Hobo
1
3%
 
Total votes: 32

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Harry Genshaw
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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by Harry Genshaw » Fri May 04, 2018 3:25 pm

Hoboh wrote:
Fri May 04, 2018 6:15 am
I await with baited breath the views from our resident Marxist about this massive swing in the local elections to the labour comrades.
Even a brand new party, Kearsley and Farnworth first obliterated the labour candidate so much for public opinion eh?
Couldn't even drag out the new found sympathetic voters in that foreign city London. Maybe they thought they might be asked for ID?
According to Owen Jones today these local authority elections were Labour's best result and the Tories worst since 1971.

No surprise after Cliff,Aasons and the Ryder cup course fiascos that Labour struggled in Bolton but even that wasn't as bad as expected
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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by Lost Leopard Spot » Fri May 04, 2018 3:45 pm

Oh dear, thick as a plank: Ellie Reeves.
She's a Labour MP for Lewisham West and Penge... She said (straight-faced) "Just been to vote. Was informed that two people had already turned up without ID this morning so unable to vote. Very worrying and backs up all the evidence that the voter ID pilot in Bromley is plain wrong".

Sorry, does no such thing. All voters were informed, and they had pleeeenty of time to turn up with the required ID. It stops voter fraud, simple as.
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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by BWFC_Insane » Fri May 04, 2018 3:48 pm

Harry Genshaw wrote:
Fri May 04, 2018 3:25 pm
Hoboh wrote:
Fri May 04, 2018 6:15 am
I await with baited breath the views from our resident Marxist about this massive swing in the local elections to the labour comrades.
Even a brand new party, Kearsley and Farnworth first obliterated the labour candidate so much for public opinion eh?
Couldn't even drag out the new found sympathetic voters in that foreign city London. Maybe they thought they might be asked for ID?
According to Owen Jones today these local authority elections were Labour's best result and the Tories worst since 1971.

No surprise after Cliff,Aasons and the Ryder cup course fiascos that Labour struggled in Bolton but even that wasn't as bad as expected
IN LONDON!

The Tories abandoned the rest of the country outside London in 1979.

Labour have now also done so.

Labour did well in London, but not as well as, they probably unrealistically, thought they might.

Labour also did well in the South West (unexpectedly somewhat) and the North West (belying the idea that this would be an area they lose support in). The North East can be considered their relatively stable heartland.

They did very poorly in the midlands and regions around London.

Corbyn and his party have to stop only trying to appeal to the North London "chariteeeeee shop dahrlinggggggg" luvvies and speak to people struggling in Sunderland, Birmingham and Liverpool. The Tories never have, and likely never will. But Labour put all their efforts into embarrassing the Tories in Wandsworth (and it would have been an unbelievable embarrassment) and came up slightly short, whilst still delivering a blow, but forget about much of the rest of the country. It is indicative of Corbyn in general. He relates to people brilliantly in most of London, in educated student towns, in more socially mobile left leaning areas. But he simply has to translate somehow to the traditional working class Labour voter. He doesn't have to do this by becoming a gibbering, foaming at the mouth Daily Mail nonsense type. But he needs to start being more of a straight talker and less of someone who simply refuses to answer questions he think people won't like his answer to. Straight talking and honest or just lie. Either way you cannot keep dodging because in places like Burnley, Birmingham etc...people want straight answers. It might be too late anyway.

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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by BWFC_Insane » Fri May 04, 2018 3:51 pm

Lost Leopard Spot wrote:
Fri May 04, 2018 3:45 pm
Oh dear, thick as a plank: Ellie Reeves.
She's a Labour MP for Lewisham West and Penge... She said (straight-faced) "Just been to vote. Was informed that two people had already turned up without ID this morning so unable to vote. Very worrying and backs up all the evidence that the voter ID pilot in Bromley is plain wrong".

Sorry, does no such thing. All voters were informed, and they had pleeeenty of time to turn up with the required ID. It stops voter fraud, simple as.
There is very little evidence of any significant voter fraud in the UK, as far as I'm aware.

Voter ID is simply a way to try and suppress the Labour vote in certain marginal areas. It is as clear as day that is the intention. In the same way seat revisions are being designed to disadvantage Labour.

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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by BWFC_Insane » Fri May 04, 2018 4:02 pm

The BBC analysis says that if you take the local election result and extrapolate it to a GE you end up with...

Labour 283 seats
Tories 280 seats.

What a fine old mess that would be. Oh joy.

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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by Prufrock » Fri May 04, 2018 4:49 pm

Yes, but frankly, you can't.

I voted for:

-One person who lived at my old address, cool.
- two of the three lib Dems. They had a man and a woman standing living at the same address. I voted for her, and the third lib Dem hoping she would get in and he wouldn't. Reckon that would mess with him and that's funny.

Not doing that in a GE.
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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by TANGODANCER » Fri May 04, 2018 5:08 pm

I've loved and been proud of being a Boltonion all my life, but being very mindful of the monumental xxxx up that successive governments have managed to do to Bolton and districts over the years, I decided to give Farnworth and Kearsley First my vote (so did my wife). I've lived in Farnworth for 35 years or so, so why not? At least I won't have to put up with anything for life, I've already done most of that. :wink:
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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by Montreal Wanderer » Sat May 05, 2018 1:41 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Fri May 04, 2018 3:51 pm
Lost Leopard Spot wrote:
Fri May 04, 2018 3:45 pm
Oh dear, thick as a plank: Ellie Reeves.
She's a Labour MP for Lewisham West and Penge... She said (straight-faced) "Just been to vote. Was informed that two people had already turned up without ID this morning so unable to vote. Very worrying and backs up all the evidence that the voter ID pilot in Bromley is plain wrong".

Sorry, does no such thing. All voters were informed, and they had pleeeenty of time to turn up with the required ID. It stops voter fraud, simple as.
There is very little evidence of any significant voter fraud in the UK, as far as I'm aware.

Voter ID is simply a way to try and suppress the Labour vote in certain marginal areas. It is as clear as day that is the intention. In the same way seat revisions are being designed to disadvantage Labour.
I'm not too au fait with voter fraud in the UK (real or imagined) but this statement, Insano, strikes me as somewhat paranoid. In what way are Labour voters denied access to the necessary id that Tory voters apparently have? How does requiring an id suppress a particular type of vote? If it is as clear as day I might understand any explanation.
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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by bedwetter2 » Sat May 05, 2018 4:18 pm

Montreal Wanderer wrote:
Sat May 05, 2018 1:41 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Fri May 04, 2018 3:51 pm
Lost Leopard Spot wrote:
Fri May 04, 2018 3:45 pm
Oh dear, thick as a plank: Ellie Reeves.
She's a Labour MP for Lewisham West and Penge... She said (straight-faced) "Just been to vote. Was informed that two people had already turned up without ID this morning so unable to vote. Very worrying and backs up all the evidence that the voter ID pilot in Bromley is plain wrong".

Sorry, does no such thing. All voters were informed, and they had pleeeenty of time to turn up with the required ID. It stops voter fraud, simple as.
There is very little evidence of any significant voter fraud in the UK, as far as I'm aware.

Voter ID is simply a way to try and suppress the Labour vote in certain marginal areas. It is as clear as day that is the intention. In the same way seat revisions are being designed to disadvantage Labour.
I'm not too au fait with voter fraud in the UK (real or imagined) but this statement, Insano, strikes me as somewhat paranoid. In what way are Labour voters denied access to the necessary id that Tory voters apparently have? How does requiring an id suppress a particular type of vote? If it is as clear as day I might understand any explanation.
Mmm, I wasn't too sure of that claim either. Without pointing fingers at any one political party or location, I thought the measure was introduced to eliminate double or triple voting as per the last GE by students in particular. There was also the small matter of large scale vote rigging in places like Tower Hamlets and Sparkbrook, allegedly.
Still all that could be dealt with by microchipping everyone as per dogs. :lol:

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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by Prufrock » Sat May 05, 2018 11:57 pm

Absolute nonsense. Double and triple voting isn't a thing. Everyone has a number, it gets checked off. It's possible people could lie and go back but there is no evidence it happens at a vaguely significant level at all. There have been give studies particularly in America where voter ID has been a hot topic for ages and voter impersonation just isn't a thing.

On the other hand, guess who is much less likely to own a passport, driving license or other form of ID...

You can't bring it in unless you bring in compulsory ID cards, and good luck with that.
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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by Hoboh » Sun May 06, 2018 10:31 am

Prufrock wrote:
Sat May 05, 2018 11:57 pm
Absolute nonsense. Double and triple voting isn't a thing. Everyone has a number, it gets checked off. It's possible people could lie and go back but there is no evidence it happens at a vaguely significant level at all. There have been give studies particularly in America where voter ID has been a hot topic for ages and voter impersonation just isn't a thing.

On the other hand, guess who is much less likely to own a passport, driving license or other form of ID...

You can't bring it in unless you bring in compulsory ID cards, and good luck with that.
Postal votes seem to be the big problem to be fair.
I remember an article a few years ago about a certain person in a certain place collecting postal votes from people, filling them in the returning them. All went quiet on that story but I have heard repeated similar goings on.
Oh and before your usual head in the sand surfaces, the number was a couple of hundred votes not one or two.

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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by Lost Leopard Spot » Sun May 06, 2018 12:18 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Fri May 04, 2018 3:51 pm
Lost Leopard Spot wrote:
Fri May 04, 2018 3:45 pm
Oh dear, thick as a plank: Ellie Reeves.
She's a Labour MP for Lewisham West and Penge... She said (straight-faced) "Just been to vote. Was informed that two people had already turned up without ID this morning so unable to vote. Very worrying and backs up all the evidence that the voter ID pilot in Bromley is plain wrong".

Sorry, does no such thing. All voters were informed, and they had pleeeenty of time to turn up with the required ID. It stops voter fraud, simple as.
There is very little evidence of any significant voter fraud in the UK, as far as I'm aware.

Voter ID is simply a way to try and suppress the Labour vote in certain marginal areas. It is as clear as day that is the intention. In the same way seat revisions are being designed to disadvantage Labour.
Bullshit
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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by bedwetter2 » Sun May 06, 2018 2:02 pm

Prufrock wrote:
Sat May 05, 2018 11:57 pm
Absolute nonsense. Double and triple voting isn't a thing. Everyone has a number, it gets checked off. It's possible people could lie and go back but there is no evidence it happens at a vaguely significant level at all. There have been give studies particularly in America where voter ID has been a hot topic for ages and voter impersonation just isn't a thing.

On the other hand, guess who is much less likely to own a passport, driving license or other form of ID...

You can't bring it in unless you bring in compulsory ID cards, and good luck with that.
You may recall your college days. I'm not trying to suggest double or triple voting was a big problem but it was possible for a student to register both at their parents home and digs away from home; hence double voting registration. There was no overall UK wide register to ensure that people could not vote in different constituencies.

The largest issue is postal voting fraud, particularly well represented in constituencies with high numbers of certain ethnic backgrounds.

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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by Lost Leopard Spot » Sun May 06, 2018 2:50 pm

It's even more direct than that. You have a landlord, say in Tower Hamlets (could be anywhere mind...) who, when, the electoral registration cards come around fill in the fact that Mo Ali and seventeen members of his family live there. Mo, who in fact is Ahmed, then goes and votes eighteen times.
And Prufrock thinks this is not a Thing. He also thinks that people screaming Cultural Appropriation is not a Thing, and that Trigger Warnings are not a Thing, and any other number of Things are not a Thing.
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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by Montreal Wanderer » Sun May 06, 2018 3:55 pm

Prufrock wrote:
Sat May 05, 2018 11:57 pm
On the other hand, guess who is much less likely to own a passport, driving license or other form of ID...

You can't bring it in unless you bring in compulsory ID cards, and good luck with that.
We don't have compulsory id in Quebec, but every resident is entitled to a medicare card and only residents can vote. If someone is too stupid to pick their card for free health services I'm not sure they should be allowed to vote.
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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by Beefheart » Tue May 08, 2018 12:30 pm

Lost Leopard Spot wrote:
Sun May 06, 2018 2:50 pm
It's even more direct than that. You have a landlord, say in Tower Hamlets (could be anywhere mind...) who, when, the electoral registration cards come around fill in the fact that Mo Ali and seventeen members of his family live there. Mo, who in fact is Ahmed, then goes and votes eighteen times.
And Prufrock thinks this is not a Thing. He also thinks that people screaming Cultural Appropriation is not a Thing, and that Trigger Warnings are not a Thing, and any other number of Things are not a Thing.
Key findings from cases of alleged electoral fraud in 2017
Headline figures from data on cases of alleged electoral fraud in 2017 are:

As of 31 January 2018, there has been one conviction which was in connection with an allegation of personation in polling stations.

Suspects in eight cases had accepted police cautions:

Four were in relation to registration offences
Two were personation when voting by post
One a false statement on a nomination form
One return of election expenses.

There are more instances of voter fraud in your hypothetical scenario than there were recorded instances in the last year.

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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by Beefheart » Tue May 08, 2018 12:32 pm

bedwetter2 wrote:
Sun May 06, 2018 2:02 pm
Prufrock wrote:
Sat May 05, 2018 11:57 pm
Absolute nonsense. Double and triple voting isn't a thing. Everyone has a number, it gets checked off. It's possible people could lie and go back but there is no evidence it happens at a vaguely significant level at all. There have been give studies particularly in America where voter ID has been a hot topic for ages and voter impersonation just isn't a thing.

On the other hand, guess who is much less likely to own a passport, driving license or other form of ID...

You can't bring it in unless you bring in compulsory ID cards, and good luck with that.
You may recall your college days. I'm not trying to suggest double or triple voting was a big problem but it was possible for a student to register both at their parents home and digs away from home; hence double voting registration. There was no overall UK wide register to ensure that people could not vote in different constituencies.

The largest issue is postal voting fraud, particularly well represented in constituencies with high numbers of certain ethnic backgrounds.
Neither of which are issues solved by requiring ID.

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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by BWFC_Insane » Tue May 08, 2018 1:13 pm

Lost Leopard Spot wrote:
Sun May 06, 2018 2:50 pm
It's even more direct than that. You have a landlord, say in Tower Hamlets (could be anywhere mind...) who, when, the electoral registration cards come around fill in the fact that Mo Ali and seventeen members of his family live there. Mo, who in fact is Ahmed, then goes and votes eighteen times.
And Prufrock thinks this is not a Thing. He also thinks that people screaming Cultural Appropriation is not a Thing, and that Trigger Warnings are not a Thing, and any other number of Things are not a Thing.
If you're claiming its a thing then show the evidence. All reviews and studies show an incredibly small number of instances of voter fraud.

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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by bedwetter2 » Wed May 09, 2018 9:18 am

Beefheart wrote:
Tue May 08, 2018 12:32 pm
bedwetter2 wrote:
Sun May 06, 2018 2:02 pm
Prufrock wrote:
Sat May 05, 2018 11:57 pm
Absolute nonsense. Double and triple voting isn't a thing. Everyone has a number, it gets checked off. It's possible people could lie and go back but there is no evidence it happens at a vaguely significant level at all. There have been give studies particularly in America where voter ID has been a hot topic for ages and voter impersonation just isn't a thing.

On the other hand, guess who is much less likely to own a passport, driving license or other form of ID...

You can't bring it in unless you bring in compulsory ID cards, and good luck with that.
You may recall your college days. I'm not trying to suggest double or triple voting was a big problem but it was possible for a student to register both at their parents home and digs away from home; hence double voting registration. There was no overall UK wide register to ensure that people could not vote in different constituencies.

The largest issue is postal voting fraud, particularly well represented in constituencies with high numbers of certain ethnic backgrounds.
Neither of which are issues solved by requiring ID.

I agree that neither issue would be solved by the production of ID. However, the Electoral Commission could and should be more rigorous in modernising the way in which voting occurs. It seems to be antiquated when one either takes a card and ID to a polling station or goes through the rigmarole of postal voting. Electronic voting terminals would be the answer but I'm sure some of the Jeremy supporters would have a good moan about that as in some way discriminatory.

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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by BWFC_Insane » Wed May 09, 2018 9:30 am

bedwetter2 wrote:
Wed May 09, 2018 9:18 am
Beefheart wrote:
Tue May 08, 2018 12:32 pm
bedwetter2 wrote:
Sun May 06, 2018 2:02 pm
Prufrock wrote:
Sat May 05, 2018 11:57 pm
Absolute nonsense. Double and triple voting isn't a thing. Everyone has a number, it gets checked off. It's possible people could lie and go back but there is no evidence it happens at a vaguely significant level at all. There have been give studies particularly in America where voter ID has been a hot topic for ages and voter impersonation just isn't a thing.

On the other hand, guess who is much less likely to own a passport, driving license or other form of ID...

You can't bring it in unless you bring in compulsory ID cards, and good luck with that.
You may recall your college days. I'm not trying to suggest double or triple voting was a big problem but it was possible for a student to register both at their parents home and digs away from home; hence double voting registration. There was no overall UK wide register to ensure that people could not vote in different constituencies.

The largest issue is postal voting fraud, particularly well represented in constituencies with high numbers of certain ethnic backgrounds.
Neither of which are issues solved by requiring ID.

I agree that neither issue would be solved by the production of ID. However, the Electoral Commission could and should be more rigorous in modernising the way in which voting occurs. It seems to be antiquated when one either takes a card and ID to a polling station or goes through the rigmarole of postal voting. Electronic voting terminals would be the answer but I'm sure some of the Jeremy supporters would have a good moan about that as in some way discriminatory.
I think Tory supporters would be the ones holding that tech back. But I agree, it should be a thing. Get rid of antiquated counts and paper. The reason it isn't is scrutiny. If someone questions an election on paper ballots you can revisit the paper ballots. Electronic voting can never be re-examined can it?

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