The Politics Thread

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Who will you be voting for?

Labour
13
41%
Conservatives
12
38%
Liberal Democrats
2
6%
UK Independence Party (UKIP)
0
No votes
Green Party
3
9%
Plaid Cymru
0
No votes
Other
1
3%
Planet Hobo
1
3%
 
Total votes: 32

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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by Hoboh » Wed May 29, 2019 4:34 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Wed May 29, 2019 4:29 pm
Lost Leopard Spot wrote:
Wed May 29, 2019 4:06 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Wed May 29, 2019 11:36 am

Isn't youth unemployment at record low levels? I get your argument but I'm not sure it holds up to scrutiny. You are potentially writing off the potential for my kids in the future to work in the EU - certainly making it harder for them. Or study.

I think my point is that as inward EU migration is reducing inward non-EU migration is increasing. The reality is that our economy is currently reliant on foreign labour, some cheap, and some expert with skills lacking here. Is that going to change because we leave the EU? No. Is the global economy going away because we left? No.

You can opine about the need for a self-sufficient UK all you like. But you know it isn't happening. Regardless of our decision to leave. We will still be importing people from elsewhere.
I don't get your argument.
On one hand you are complaining that your child won't have the opportunity to work abroad because it's oh so skilful, but at the same time stating we will still need to import people to replace your child who can't fxck off abroad!
You talk Nonsense.
There are two arguments. 1) Choice. Freedom of movement empowers people to choose where they live and work more easily. We've had that benefit. Now future generations will not.
2) Most importantly - your rather simplistic argument is nonsense. We have record low unemployment in younger people - yet still need to import, nurses, doctors, cleaners, care home workers, farm workers etc etc....it is now a global skills and job market. Except we're making it harder but will still need to be in there....
Point 2 the lack of training is the reason is it not? Please don't fall into the trap of low youth unemployment because they are all in further non education etc. Made up to mask the real levels.

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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by BWFC_Insane » Wed May 29, 2019 6:25 pm

Hoboh wrote:
Wed May 29, 2019 4:34 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Wed May 29, 2019 4:29 pm
Lost Leopard Spot wrote:
Wed May 29, 2019 4:06 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Wed May 29, 2019 11:36 am

Isn't youth unemployment at record low levels? I get your argument but I'm not sure it holds up to scrutiny. You are potentially writing off the potential for my kids in the future to work in the EU - certainly making it harder for them. Or study.

I think my point is that as inward EU migration is reducing inward non-EU migration is increasing. The reality is that our economy is currently reliant on foreign labour, some cheap, and some expert with skills lacking here. Is that going to change because we leave the EU? No. Is the global economy going away because we left? No.

You can opine about the need for a self-sufficient UK all you like. But you know it isn't happening. Regardless of our decision to leave. We will still be importing people from elsewhere.
I don't get your argument.
On one hand you are complaining that your child won't have the opportunity to work abroad because it's oh so skilful, but at the same time stating we will still need to import people to replace your child who can't fxck off abroad!
You talk Nonsense.
There are two arguments. 1) Choice. Freedom of movement empowers people to choose where they live and work more easily. We've had that benefit. Now future generations will not.
2) Most importantly - your rather simplistic argument is nonsense. We have record low unemployment in younger people - yet still need to import, nurses, doctors, cleaners, care home workers, farm workers etc etc....it is now a global skills and job market. Except we're making it harder but will still need to be in there....
Point 2 the lack of training is the reason is it not? Please don't fall into the trap of low youth unemployment because they are all in further non education etc. Made up to mask the real levels.
All is a stretch but let’s take your argument at face value.

We leave the EU and need to find all those care assistants or fruit pickers - so you are going to force the kids out of education to take up minimum wage dead end positions that need filling rather than let them get some qualifications and better themselves?

Equally you are going to force a load of kids to be nurses or doctors because you’d rather we employed our own than imported them. So some of the dossers will be told ‘hang on Johnny we need a million more doctors stop doing your History degree you are needed elsewhere’.

It simply isn’t practical. In the short term impossible. And in the long term ridiculous.

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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by Enoch » Thu May 30, 2019 12:05 am

I'm off to social democratic Shangri-La, a place where everyone loves everyone and we are all happy.

Unless of course you disagree with what we say, then you can have some of our vitriol.

Now where did I leave those weapons of mass destruction.

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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by Lost Leopard Spot » Thu May 30, 2019 12:47 pm

Cleese saying London is no longer English.
He's right, absolutely stuffed full of foreigners.
That's not a leopard!
頑張ってください

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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by BWFC_Insane » Thu May 30, 2019 1:11 pm

Lost Leopard Spot wrote:
Thu May 30, 2019 12:47 pm
Cleese saying London is no longer English.
He's right, absolutely stuffed full of foreigners.
Bring back the cockernees...

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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by Lost Leopard Spot » Thu May 30, 2019 1:14 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Thu May 30, 2019 1:11 pm
Lost Leopard Spot wrote:
Thu May 30, 2019 12:47 pm
Cleese saying London is no longer English.
He's right, absolutely stuffed full of foreigners.
Bring back the cockernees...
And these are allowed to vote...
https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/11334 ... -gibraltar
...
They don't actually know where they live, mind.
Unlike the cockernees.
That's not a leopard!
頑張ってください

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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by TANGODANCER » Thu May 30, 2019 1:33 pm

Lost Leopard Spot wrote:
Thu May 30, 2019 12:47 pm
Cleese saying London is no longer English.
He's right, absolutely stuffed full of foreigners.
Ha, I'd say, language apart, "England" is no longer English. Mind you, you'd have to be pensioner age to agree, or even know what I'm talking about. We're yesterday men (persons)and can only wish good fortune to tomorrow's men (persons). Thank you Lord for letting me be born in 1939 and survive though World War II. I've no regrets for any of it.
Si Deus pro nobis, quis contra nos?

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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by BWFC_Insane » Thu May 30, 2019 1:40 pm

Yeah - I feel sorry for us all having to live with some people from other parts of the world.....

Seriously - what does it matter? What difference at all does it make? You get exposed to different foods, cultures, ideas and traditions.

Unless you inherently believe that one race or nationality are superior to others - then what on earth does it matter? You could have a nice German next door or a right bastard of a German. Same with anyone from anywhere.

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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by Lost Leopard Spot » Thu May 30, 2019 3:35 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Thu May 30, 2019 1:40 pm
Yeah - I feel sorry for us all having to live with some people from other parts of the world.....

Seriously - what does it matter? What difference at all does it make? You get exposed to different foods, cultures, ideas and traditions.

Unless you inherently believe that one race or nationality are superior to others - then what on earth does it matter? You could have a nice German next door or a right bastard of a German. Same with anyone from anywhere.
Well, I for one, don't believe Masai society is set up to maximise the number of theoretical physicists they nurture.
I, for one, respect the monoculture that is Japan.
If London is not English, why should it be the capital of England?
I understand what the immigration ideal is all about, the USA being the ultimate expression on this planet. Personally speaking, I identify with the remnants of the Arapaho, and not with Trump, Clinton, Guiliani et al
That's not a leopard!
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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by BWFC_Insane » Thu May 30, 2019 3:56 pm

Lost Leopard Spot wrote:
Thu May 30, 2019 3:35 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Thu May 30, 2019 1:40 pm
Yeah - I feel sorry for us all having to live with some people from other parts of the world.....

Seriously - what does it matter? What difference at all does it make? You get exposed to different foods, cultures, ideas and traditions.

Unless you inherently believe that one race or nationality are superior to others - then what on earth does it matter? You could have a nice German next door or a right bastard of a German. Same with anyone from anywhere.
Well, I for one, don't believe Masai society is set up to maximise the number of theoretical physicists they nurture.
I, for one, respect the monoculture that is Japan.
If London is not English, why should it be the capital of England?
I understand what the immigration ideal is all about, the USA being the ultimate expression on this planet. Personally speaking, I identify with the remnants of the Arapaho, and not with Trump, Clinton, Guiliani et al
On a micro level, would you care if you lived next door to Polish/Italian/Spanish/Indian/Chinese or whatever people...would it make your life worse?

I don't feel it matters where the people come from but who they are. Personally.

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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by Prufrock » Thu May 30, 2019 4:01 pm

I'm glad I don't have to eat potatoes every day.
In a world that has decided
That it's going to lose its mind
Be more kind, my friends, try to be more kind.

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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by TANGODANCER » Thu May 30, 2019 6:34 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Thu May 30, 2019 3:56 pm
Same with anyone from anywhere.
On a micro level, would you care if you lived next door to Polish/Italian/Spanish/Indian/Chinese or whatever people...would it make your life worse? I don't feel it matters where the people come from but who they are. Personally.[/quote]

I do live next door to a Polish couple. My son in law's family are Ukranian, and we live next door but one to an Asian family, and across the road from another. There's a guy from Burma or somewhere further down the road and three taxi-drivers and an ice-cream van owner, all Asian. Ex local councilor Champa Mystry lives in the next street. We all get on fine, but that's nothing to do with how England has changed. We accept that as a fact of life and time. We're still allowed to comment on that....I think? Oh, and my many vacations to Spain were considerably enhanced by learning to speak their language. Just mentioning it...
Si Deus pro nobis, quis contra nos?

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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by BWFC_Insane » Thu May 30, 2019 6:39 pm

TANGODANCER wrote:
Thu May 30, 2019 6:34 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Thu May 30, 2019 3:56 pm
Same with anyone from anywhere.
On a micro level, would you care if you lived next door to Polish/Italian/Spanish/Indian/Chinese or whatever people...would it make your life worse? I don't feel it matters where the people come from but who they are. Personally.
I do live next door to a Polish couple. My son in law's family are Ukranian, and we live next door but one to an Asian family, and across the road from another. There's a guy from Burma or somewhere further down the road and three taxi-drivers and an ice-cream van owner, all Asian. Ex local councilor Champa Mystry lives in the next street. We all get on fine, but that's nothing to do with how England has changed. We accept that as a fact of life and time. We're still allowed to comment on that....I think?
[/quote]

Not saying you can’t comment on it. You seemed to be lamenting it as though it was a bad thing.

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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by Dujon » Fri May 31, 2019 2:40 am

What the heck has someone's ignorance in basic geography got to do with racism?

Mind you, with 79% of the people surveyed unable to find China on a map does raise questions about the group interviewed. I find it hard to believe that such a percentage of the overall population are so parochial as to be unaware of its location on the globe. :crazy:

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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by Lost Leopard Spot » Fri May 31, 2019 1:20 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Thu May 30, 2019 3:56 pm
Lost Leopard Spot wrote:
Thu May 30, 2019 3:35 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Thu May 30, 2019 1:40 pm
Yeah - I feel sorry for us all having to live with some people from other parts of the world.....

Seriously - what does it matter? What difference at all does it make? You get exposed to different foods, cultures, ideas and traditions.

Unless you inherently believe that one race or nationality are superior to others - then what on earth does it matter? You could have a nice German next door or a right bastard of a German. Same with anyone from anywhere.
Well, I for one, don't believe Masai society is set up to maximise the number of theoretical physicists they nurture.
I, for one, respect the monoculture that is Japan.
If London is not English, why should it be the capital of England?
I understand what the immigration ideal is all about, the USA being the ultimate expression on this planet. Personally speaking, I identify with the remnants of the Arapaho, and not with Trump, Clinton, Guiliani et al
On a micro level, would you care if you lived next door to Polish/Italian/Spanish/Indian/Chinese or whatever people...would it make your life worse?

I don't feel it matters where the people come from but who they are. Personally.
On a micro level, no. On a macro level, yes.
When I lived in Japan it was Japanese not a version of New Yoik. I don't want London, Berlin and Copenhagen to merge into one megalopolis of ghettoes, with a slew of foreigners all hailing Uber taxis to bring them the latest fad McDonald's not available in America. Personally.
That's not a leopard!
頑張ってください

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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by BWFC_Insane » Fri May 31, 2019 1:37 pm

Lost Leopard Spot wrote:
Fri May 31, 2019 1:20 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Thu May 30, 2019 3:56 pm
Lost Leopard Spot wrote:
Thu May 30, 2019 3:35 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Thu May 30, 2019 1:40 pm
Yeah - I feel sorry for us all having to live with some people from other parts of the world.....

Seriously - what does it matter? What difference at all does it make? You get exposed to different foods, cultures, ideas and traditions.

Unless you inherently believe that one race or nationality are superior to others - then what on earth does it matter? You could have a nice German next door or a right bastard of a German. Same with anyone from anywhere.
Well, I for one, don't believe Masai society is set up to maximise the number of theoretical physicists they nurture.
I, for one, respect the monoculture that is Japan.
If London is not English, why should it be the capital of England?
I understand what the immigration ideal is all about, the USA being the ultimate expression on this planet. Personally speaking, I identify with the remnants of the Arapaho, and not with Trump, Clinton, Guiliani et al
On a micro level, would you care if you lived next door to Polish/Italian/Spanish/Indian/Chinese or whatever people...would it make your life worse?

I don't feel it matters where the people come from but who they are. Personally.
On a micro level, no. On a macro level, yes.
When I lived in Japan it was Japanese not a version of New Yoik. I don't want London, Berlin and Copenhagen to merge into one megalopolis of ghettoes, with a slew of foreigners all hailing Uber taxis to bring them the latest fad McDonald's not available in America. Personally.
A lot of that has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with immigration. If England was only populated by "white British nationals" you'd still have Uber, the latest McDonalds fad and loads of cultural influences from the USA.

That's some weird conflation of very separate things. Also, I'd like to know what culture is actually supressed? The world changes - Japan has changed and its culture changed massively in the past 50 years. It has certainly by no means been stagnant.

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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by TANGODANCER » Fri May 31, 2019 2:31 pm

John Cleese (the original topic of this particular section of the "politics" thread) is one month younger than me, which makes him 80 in the coming October. I think that fact may be worth remembering by the outraged drum-bangers in context with his comparison remark about London not being English (today). Like me, he's from another and very different era than right now. The England we knew,(read any city in the country) complete with gas lamps in the streets, ration books, pubs where everybody smoked, pits and cotton mills is as foreign today to those of our era as Planet Mongo was to Flash Gordon. Not everybody got a pricey mobile phone for Christmas as kids or had teachers not calling blackboards that for fear of upsetting the politically correct whingers.. In that respect, Cleese is absolutely right, times have changed. We're living in a world we no longer recognise.
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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by Prufrock » Fri May 31, 2019 2:45 pm

Good! That all sounds shit!
In a world that has decided
That it's going to lose its mind
Be more kind, my friends, try to be more kind.

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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by BWFC_Insane » Fri May 31, 2019 3:50 pm

TANGODANCER wrote:
Fri May 31, 2019 2:31 pm
John Cleese (the original topic of this particular section of the "politics" thread) is one month younger than me, which makes him 80 in the coming October. I think that fact may be worth remembering by the outraged drum-bangers in context with his comparison remark about London not being English (today). Like me, he's from another and very different era than right now. The England we knew,(read any city in the country) complete with gas lamps in the streets, ration books, pubs where everybody smoked, pits and cotton mills is as foreign today to those of our era as Planet Mongo was to Flash Gordon. Not everybody got a pricey mobile phone for Christmas as kids or had teachers not calling blackboards that for fear of upsetting the politically correct whingers.. In that respect, Cleese is absolutely right, times have changed. We're living in a world we no longer recognise.
Yes. But that has little if anything to do with immigration. The changes there are simply the changes that happen over time, some good, some bad some open to interpretation.

The world has changed massively since I've been in it and I'm almost half your age. Some things I cannot comprehend. Some I don't like. Other things I think are absolutely marvellous. What I can't understand is - people who think it was far better then than now - different yes, some bits worse, some better, yes - but things always change. Society always changes.

The point I make about immigration is that I suspect (but I might be wrong) is that people use multi-culturalism as a symbol to rail against the bits of "modern life" they don't like. We are less community focussed than even when I was a kid. Everyone knew you - there were 2 doctors who knew more or less everyone by name in their practice - the local police knew more or less where every kid lived....you knew the whole street. Its very different in many ways. But whilst having different nationalities does bring changes I suspect the vast majority of things are different regardless.

As Pru says - are you really yearning for gas-lamps, smoking and pits and cotton mills?

And please do not read any of this as an attack. Its not meant in that way. If it comes across as condescending I apologise in advance. I think there is a really interesting conversation here - because how people feel about the world is not rational. It comes from somewhere else and I as a middle aged bloke will undoubtedly have a different perspective. What I find fascinating though is a generation before mine seems to hanker for a time period - a non specific one, but a time period that is loosely 50s-late 60's depending upon the person. Is it as simple as that was the time they were young - is it something specific about a generation - is it something that has happened since....its really interesting. I look back on the 70s and 80s with nostalgia and there are fond memories. But I'd not go back personally - and see the progress since....

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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by TANGODANCER » Fri May 31, 2019 4:38 pm

^^ I've no intention of rambling round or repeating all that again, but I will ask: Who mentioned the word "immigration" in the first place? I didn't, John Cleese didn't, and he's so anti "foreigners that he's thinking of living in the Caribbean? No, it you my friend who mentioned it here, and was all the ever-ready racism "accusers" who brought that context in. An observation/remark made by one man..yes, one man, in this great (hypocritical) bastion of free speech in which we live, becomes a subject for every race-card player in the galaxy to howl abuse and point fingers. Gee, I'd really love to bring that "first-stone" mandate into play and watch all those honest, clean-living upright citizens scatter like rats in a fire. What exactly did John Cleese do wrong that has almost ostracised him from society?
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