The Politics Thread

[Hoboh]

One of my mates is training to be a surgeon, and he's one of the most twitchy and nervous people you could ever hope to meet

Only when he's around you I imagine!

I've met a few consultants/surgeons over the last few years and half of them are fruit cake nutty
Although to be fair they sure as hell know their business.

[BWFC_Insane]

The problem I see with state schools is dumbing down to the lowest level instead of pushing up to the next.
If you are in a class with a couple of Hoodies and their hangers on who are disruptive what chance do you have of progressing when schools hardly have the tools to dicipline them?
Even expulsion is a dirty word now with the labour goverment determined to keep the little horrors some where they don't want to be.

There have always been different levels of learning and behaviour in schools. Even amongst the brightest and best there are differentials.

Its about giving the best opportunities and chances and trying to engage those around the edges as best as possible.

[Athers]

Given the cost of private schools these days it's no surprise it's not on the agenda to bring Assisted Places back - it's twice as expensive per year to go to private school in Bolton than it was 10 years ago, and that's just where you start - it's genearlly a 5/7 year commitment where they can raise prices by whatever they like every year. Such schools operate their own scheme but it's generally far smaller than in 1996.
In an era of spending cuts, keeping kids who are clever at 11 in the state system is far cheaper, but when teachers are targeted on getting their pupils 5 A*-C at GCSE whether they'd be taught in a way to achieve their maximum or not I don't know?

PS Disagree with there being any sort of social issue of bullying created by the Assisted Places scheme, certainly up North anyway.

[superjohnmcginlay]

Given the cost of private schools these days it's no surprise it's not on the agenda to bring Assisted Places back - it's twice as expensive per year to go to private school in Bolton than it was 10 years ago, and that's just where you start - it's genearlly a 5/7 year commitment where they can raise prices by whatever they like every year. Such schools operate their own scheme but it's generally far smaller than in 1996.
In an era of spending cuts, keeping kids who are clever at 11 in the state system is far cheaper, but when teachers are targeted on getting their pupils 5 A*-C at GCSE whether they'd be taught in a way to achieve their maximum or not I don't know?

PS Disagree with there being any sort of social issue of bullying created by the Assisted Places scheme, certainly up North anyway.

Do schools still stream? Thats the only way I can think to do this if you disregard grammar schools.

[Athers]

Is stream another word for creating sets?

They do still do that, if that's what you mean. An argument might be that if you do that, what's the point of the brightest being on the same site as the academic strugglers if they don't have classes together?

[Puskas]

Is stream another word for creating sets?

They do still do that, if that's what you mean. An argument might be that if you do that, what's the point of the brightest being on the same site as the academic strugglers if they don't have classes together?

So there can movement between the groups. So that kids aren't deemed failures for the rest of their academic career simply because they didn't do well in one exam at the age of 11 - they can improve, move up. And kids who may have done well initially but are unable to cope are moved back to a level to which they are more suited.

[superjohnmcginlay]

Is stream another word for creating sets?

They do still do that, if that's what you mean. An argument might be that if you do that, what's the point of the brightest being on the same site as the academic strugglers if they don't have classes together?

Yes. I obviously went to a better school.

Money. Like you said in the other post.

Edit - and what Puskas said.

[BWFC_Insane]

Is stream another word for creating sets?

They do still do that, if that's what you mean. An argument might be that if you do that, what's the point of the brightest being on the same site as the academic strugglers if they don't have classes together?

So there can movement between the groups. So that kids aren't deemed failures for the rest of their academic career simply because they didn't do well in one exam at the age of 11 - they can improve, move up. And kids who may have done well initially but are unable to cope are moved back to a level to which they are more suited.

Yes there is considerable variation of abilities and speeds of learning.

But education should not be seen as being limited to traditional "academic subjects". In fact I'd rip the whole system up and start again with a compulsory mix of academic subjects and more "occupational" based subjects.

The most important thing for kids to learn now is IT anyways!!!

[enfieldwhite]

Is stream another word for creating sets?

They do still do that, if that's what you mean. An argument might be that if you do that, what's the point of the brightest being on the same site as the academic strugglers if they don't have classes together?

So there can movement between the groups. So that kids aren't deemed failures for the rest of their academic career simply because they didn't do well in one exam at the age of 11 - they can improve, move up. And kids who may have done well initially but are unable to cope are moved back to a level to which they are more suited.

Yes there is considerable variation of abilities and speeds of learning.

But education should not be seen as being limited to traditional "academic subjects". In fact I'd rip the whole system up and start again with a compulsory mix of academic subjects and more "occupational" based subjects.

The most important thing for kids to learn now is IT anyways!!!

There are plumbers, electricians and specialist building trades that are charging upwards of £80.00 an hour in parts of the country (mine, for instance). How much does an IT Call centre johnny earn?

[superjohnmcginlay]

Is stream another word for creating sets?

They do still do that, if that's what you mean. An argument might be that if you do that, what's the point of the brightest being on the same site as the academic strugglers if they don't have classes together?

So there can movement between the groups. So that kids aren't deemed failures for the rest of their academic career simply because they didn't do well in one exam at the age of 11 - they can improve, move up. And kids who may have done well initially but are unable to cope are moved back to a level to which they are more suited.

Yes there is considerable variation of abilities and speeds of learning.

But education should not be seen as being limited to traditional "academic subjects". In fact I'd rip the whole system up and start again with a compulsory mix of academic subjects and more "occupational" based subjects.

The most important thing for kids to learn now is IT anyways!!!

I'd still say its that reading and writing thing mesen.

[BWFC_Insane]

Is stream another word for creating sets?

They do still do that, if that's what you mean. An argument might be that if you do that, what's the point of the brightest being on the same site as the academic strugglers if they don't have classes together?

So there can movement between the groups. So that kids aren't deemed failures for the rest of their academic career simply because they didn't do well in one exam at the age of 11 - they can improve, move up. And kids who may have done well initially but are unable to cope are moved back to a level to which they are more suited.

Yes there is considerable variation of abilities and speeds of learning.

But education should not be seen as being limited to traditional "academic subjects". In fact I'd rip the whole system up and start again with a compulsory mix of academic subjects and more "occupational" based subjects.

The most important thing for kids to learn now is IT anyways!!!

I'd still say its that reading and writing thing mesen.

Sorry yes i meant outside the three R's!

Enfield, fewer and fewer jobs are possible without some IT knowledge. This is only going to increase.

Very few jobs comparatively require extensive understanding and analysis of historical sources. Many will require use of a variety of IT systems and demand a certain level of knowledge of said systems!

[Puskas]

Is stream another word for creating sets?

They do still do that, if that's what you mean. An argument might be that if you do that, what's the point of the brightest being on the same site as the academic strugglers if they don't have classes together?

So there can movement between the groups. So that kids aren't deemed failures for the rest of their academic career simply because they didn't do well in one exam at the age of 11 - they can improve, move up. And kids who may have done well initially but are unable to cope are moved back to a level to which they are more suited.

Yes there is considerable variation of abilities and speeds of learning.

But education should not be seen as being limited to traditional "academic subjects". In fact I'd rip the whole system up and start again with a compulsory mix of academic subjects and more "occupational" based subjects.

The most important thing for kids to learn now is IT anyways!!!

Is IT?

One of the most important factors - one which seems to be forgotten a lot of the time - is learning to interact with others. Become a human being, in other words. Otherwise, you may as well have parents teaching kids at home (remember Ruth wassername? I don't, obviously, 'cos I can't remember her name. Weird dad who taught her maths at home, then packed her off to Cambridge at the age of about 12....)

But teach them English, maths, science, a foreign language (Chinese may be useful in the next few years...) And more vocational subjects (but aren't they on offer, anyway?) I don't think it requires a complete ripping up and restarting.

Teaching IT is difficult. What do you teach them - how to turn a pc on and off? Basic internet usage? Email? Or do you want them capable of writing complicated assembly language stuff? Learning a programming language is easy if you have a decent background in logic. For which they need maths...

[Bruce Rioja]

I'm still waiting to drive past a school that says on the sign 'Specialising in Maths & English'. Performing arts - my arse!

[enfieldwhite]

Is stream another word for creating sets?

They do still do that, if that's what you mean. An argument might be that if you do that, what's the point of the brightest being on the same site as the academic strugglers if they don't have classes together?

So there can movement between the groups. So that kids aren't deemed failures for the rest of their academic career simply because they didn't do well in one exam at the age of 11 - they can improve, move up. And kids who may have done well initially but are unable to cope are moved back to a level to which they are more suited.

Yes there is considerable variation of abilities and speeds of learning.

But education should not be seen as being limited to traditional "academic subjects". In fact I'd rip the whole system up and start again with a compulsory mix of academic subjects and more "occupational" based subjects.

The most important thing for kids to learn now is IT anyways!!!

I'd still say its that reading and writing thing mesen.

Sorry yes i meant outside the three R's!

Enfield, fewer and fewer jobs are possible without some IT knowledge. This is only going to increase.

Very few jobs comparatively require extensive understanding and analysis of historical sources. Many will require use of a variety of IT systems and demand a certain level of knowledge of said systems!

My point being they'll learn that in school and college as a matter of course, as will everyone else as the microchip revolution reaches terminal (see what I did there?) velocity.

The dearth is in the amount of people prepared to get their hands dirty nowadays. That's why the Poles and other eastern europeans appear to be all over the building trade. Everyone wants to be in IT. A computer can pinpoint the exact location that a hole is required. The computer doesn't dig the hole.

[Lord Kangana]

The Poles are all leaving. Its the Romanians and Bulgarians who are the new scapegoats now.

[enfieldwhite]

The Poles are all leaving. Its the Romanians and Bulgarians who are the new scapegoats now.

Hence my mentioning other Easter Europeans. I'm not looking for a scapegoat LK, I'm pointing out a fact that they are doing the jobs no-one else wants to. People ignore this when accusing them of 'coming over here, taking our jobs' like they did in the 50's/ 60's and 70's

The Poles are leaving because, frankly, the pound is now so weak they wanna work for the Eurodollar. The Romanians and Bulgarians will fill the void.

[BWFC_Insane]

Is stream another word for creating sets?

They do still do that, if that's what you mean. An argument might be that if you do that, what's the point of the brightest being on the same site as the academic strugglers if they don't have classes together?

So there can movement between the groups. So that kids aren't deemed failures for the rest of their academic career simply because they didn't do well in one exam at the age of 11 - they can improve, move up. And kids who may have done well initially but are unable to cope are moved back to a level to which they are more suited.

Yes there is considerable variation of abilities and speeds of learning.

But education should not be seen as being limited to traditional "academic subjects". In fact I'd rip the whole system up and start again with a compulsory mix of academic subjects and more "occupational" based subjects.

The most important thing for kids to learn now is IT anyways!!!

Is IT?

One of the most important factors - one which seems to be forgotten a lot of the time - is learning to interact with others. Become a human being, in other words. Otherwise, you may as well have parents teaching kids at home (remember Ruth wassername? I don't, obviously, 'cos I can't remember her name. Weird dad who taught her maths at home, then packed her off to Cambridge at the age of about 12....)

But teach them English, maths, science, a foreign language (Chinese may be useful in the next few years...) And more vocational subjects (but aren't they on offer, anyway?) I don't think it requires a complete ripping up and restarting.

Teaching IT is difficult. What do you teach them - how to turn a pc on and off? Basic internet usage? Email? Or do you want them capable of writing complicated assembly language stuff? Learning a programming language is easy if you have a decent background in logic. For which they need maths...

Why though?

Why anymore difficult than science?

And maths is very important and I'm not talking about stopping that. I'm saying that the modern world has moved on from some of the antiquated subjects that are still taught and the ways the subjects are neatly broken up into separate parts.

In an ideal world past a certain age IT should simply be embedded into the rest of the curriculum. Every lesson should involve computer use rather than kids writing in text books. They could learn basic programming skills to solve scientific/mathematical problems for example, type notes on their laptops and compose essays on their PC's.

As an example, past a fairly basic level do kids need to know how to spell, what with spell-checking now? I used to do weekly spelling tests, but nowadays is that a really necessary skill for most? (Not saying it isn't just testing the water, so to speak).

[Puskas]

Why though?

Why anymore difficult than science?

And maths is very important and I'm not talking about stopping that. I'm saying that the modern world has moved on from some of the antiquated subjects that are still taught and the ways the subjects are neatly broken up into separate parts.

In an ideal world past a certain age IT should simply be embedded into the rest of the curriculum. Every lesson should involve computer use rather than kids writing in text books. They could learn basic programming skills to solve scientific/mathematical problems for example, type notes on their laptops and compose essays on their PC's.

As an example, past a fairly basic level do kids need to know how to spell, what with spell-checking now? I used to do weekly spelling tests, but nowadays is that a really necessary skill for most? (Not saying it isn't just testing the water, so to speak).

Because with IT, unless you're trying to teach specific programming languages (or theoretical aspects), you need to decide what it means to be IT literate.

Which, in effect, means that I agree with the fourth paragraph you've written - learning IT, unless you want to study programming languages or "computer science", should be done as part of learning other subjects. So you learn how to navigate a PC (or whatever machine you use), get to grips with becoming comfortable with it, etc. This isn't best done by having lessons devoted to it by itself, because there's no immediate objective in that situation.

[BWFC_Insane]

Why though?

Why anymore difficult than science?

And maths is very important and I'm not talking about stopping that. I'm saying that the modern world has moved on from some of the antiquated subjects that are still taught and the ways the subjects are neatly broken up into separate parts.

In an ideal world past a certain age IT should simply be embedded into the rest of the curriculum. Every lesson should involve computer use rather than kids writing in text books. They could learn basic programming skills to solve scientific/mathematical problems for example, type notes on their laptops and compose essays on their PC's.

As an example, past a fairly basic level do kids need to know how to spell, what with spell-checking now? I used to do weekly spelling tests, but nowadays is that a really necessary skill for most? (Not saying it isn't just testing the water, so to speak).

Because with IT, unless you're trying to teach specific programming languages (or theoretical aspects), you need to decide what it means to be IT literate.

Which, in effect, means that I agree with the fourth paragraph you've written - learning IT, unless you want to study programming languages or "computer science", should be done as part of learning other subjects. So you learn how to navigate a PC (or whatever machine you use), get to grips with becoming comfortable with it, etc. This isn't best done by having lessons devoted to it by itself, because there's no immediate objective in that situation.

And I sort of agree with you, but equally its a discipline and a subject in its own right.

Understanding what a word processor is, what excel is and does, how a database works, what its uses are, how you create one, how to manage a spreadsheet, how to manage a file system, how to creat a website etc are all things that could and should be taught IMO.

[Worthy4England]

Why though?

Why anymore difficult than science?

And maths is very important and I'm not talking about stopping that. I'm saying that the modern world has moved on from some of the antiquated subjects that are still taught and the ways the subjects are neatly broken up into separate parts.

In an ideal world past a certain age IT should simply be embedded into the rest of the curriculum. Every lesson should involve computer use rather than kids writing in text books. They could learn basic programming skills to solve scientific/mathematical problems for example, type notes on their laptops and compose essays on their PC's.

As an example, past a fairly basic level do kids need to know how to spell, what with spell-checking now? I used to do weekly spelling tests, but nowadays is that a really necessary skill for most? (Not saying it isn't just testing the water, so to speak).

Because with IT, unless you're trying to teach specific programming languages (or theoretical aspects), you need to decide what it means to be IT literate.

Which, in effect, means that I agree with the fourth paragraph you've written - learning IT, unless you want to study programming languages or "computer science", should be done as part of learning other subjects. So you learn how to navigate a PC (or whatever machine you use), get to grips with becoming comfortable with it, etc. This isn't best done by having lessons devoted to it by itself, because there's no immediate objective in that situation.

I have to disagree here, but with the idea that you're partly correct. Being the holder of a degree in IT, I'm pleased to confirm that very little of it was anything to do with programming, even though my first IT related job on leaving Uni, was as a programmer. It's all about being able to apply IT to real problems and use it as part of the solution.

The notion that you might not need the three r's is laughable. I have kids that rely on spell checker, but it invariably doesn't do enough to make some of what they write make sense. So yes, being able to spell is pretty fundamental to many aspects of life. Same with maths - if I can't spot that the decimal point is in the wrong place, because my thought process implicitly trusts the output of the calculator, then there's a problem, crap in, crap out. Computer sez no and all that.