The Politics Thread

[BWFC_Insane]

Making a general election a class war is another disaster waiting to happen. Making out you want to punish people who have wealth only goes one way. And ends up with your party spending years in the political abyss.

The focus has to be on public services, small businesses and underpinning all that a strong economy.

[thebish]

Making a general election a class war is another disaster waiting to happen. Making out you want to punish people who have wealth only goes one way. And ends up with your party spending years in the political abyss.

hmmm... whilst on the one hand I agree - it hasn't done the tories any harm recently... pitting the "middle class" against any and anyone... not least the benefit-sponging layabout "working class".... Whilst they may have not used the traditional language of class war - they have certainly succeeded at it - and "punishment" has been a fairly strong theme...

many people have been subliminally convinced that it's US or THEM... US being the hard-working nice middle class, THEM being the sponging layabout resource-greedy poor people...

divide and rule - key tory strategy across all time...

[BWFC_Insane]

hmmm... whilst on the one hand I agree - it hasn't done the tories any harm recently... pitting the "middle class" against any and anyone... not least the benefit-sponging layabout "working class".... Whilst they may have not used the traditional language of class war - they have certainly succeeded at it - and "punishment" has been a fairly strong theme...

many people have been subliminally convinced that it's US or THEM... US being the hard-working nice middle class, THEM being the sponging layabout resource-greedy poor people...

divide and rule - key tory strategy across all time...

Absolutely. Though they've been clever to appeal to working class folk too with their talk of help for working families. Load of shite. But it worked.

Ultimately though like it or not the Middle classes win you an election. By that I mean people in middle income families. Win them and you win it. Something Labour spectacularly missed out on. Summed up by the man with the stone carving business who carved their pledge stone saying he voted Tory.....

[Hoboh]

labour will struggle to get back in until they realise folk are just not prepared to shell out for bish's poor have not's, at least not until they can see something being achieved instead of endless kids and an underclass who have rights and entitlements to everything without lifting a finger.

[thebish]

labour will struggle to get back in until they realise folk are just not prepared to shell out for bish's poor have not's, at least not until they can see something being achieved instead of endless kids and an underclass who have rights and entitlements to everything without lifting a finger.

many of the poor have-nots that Osborne is paying benefits to - in fact a whole massive mass of them - are "working poor" - they have jobs - often two or three jobs - but (for them) work doesn't really pay as well as it does for you.

the lazy association of "poor" with "not lifting a finger" that you so often reach for is a testimony to the power of Tory spin - you've been had, mate...

[Hoboh]

labour will struggle to get back in until they realise folk are just not prepared to shell out for bish's poor have not's, at least not until they can see something being achieved instead of endless kids and an underclass who have rights and entitlements to everything without lifting a finger.

many of the poor have-nots that Osborne is paying benefits to - in fact a whole massive mass of them - are "working poor" - they have jobs - often two or three jobs - but (for them) work doesn't really pay as well as it does for you.

the lazy association of "poor" with "not lifting a finger" that you so often reach for is a testimony to the power of Tory spin - you've been had, mate...

I ain't been 'had' by anyone bish, I could take you right now to near were I used to live and point out the blokes who've made a lifetimes profession of sponging, now their swollen extended families are at it. I would like to add that a good number of them had decent well paid jobs in the 70's and a passion for the all out brothers club! The bookies and boozers did well out of these their sproggs seem to have 3 or 4 kids by different parents and even the grandkids are getting in on the act.

[Harry Genshaw]

labour will struggle to get back in until they realise folk are just not prepared to shell out for bish's poor have not's, at least not until they can see something being achieved instead of endless kids and an underclass who have rights and entitlements to everything without lifting a finger.

many of the poor have-nots that Osborne is paying benefits to - in fact a whole massive mass of them - are "working poor" - they have jobs - often two or three jobs - but (for them) work doesn't really pay as well as it does for you.

the lazy association of "poor" with "not lifting a finger" that you so often reach for is a testimony to the power of Tory spin - you've been had, mate...

I ain't been 'had' by anyone bish, I could take you right now to near were I used to live and point out the blokes who've made a lifetimes profession of sponging, now their swollen extended families are at it. I would like to add that a good number of them had decent well paid jobs in the 70's and a passion for the all out brothers club! The bookies and boozers did well out of these their sproggs seem to have 3 or 4 kids by different parents and even the grandkids are getting in on the act.

There's undoubtedly folk like that - we've all seen them, but I suspect there are much fewer of them than you realise. They're only visible because of where you live and your circumstances. The folk who you are really paying for are currently living in gated communities dodging their tax bills

[Prufrock]

but they have his supporters... calls being made to postpone the election because of the influx of new members wanting to vote corbyn - dismissed as entryist trotskyites who want to destroy the party...

could it not simply be the return of many who were driven out by the lurch rightwards in the 80s?

there is PLENTY from the anti-corbyn lobby about people not having a place in this discussion - so much so that they want to stop the election and rewrite the rules...

also - I don't think "we need to believe this because it's what middle england like" is "policy" - that's strategy... I have heard the other three talk lots of strategy - and hardly any policy...

No arguments with the first part of that, other than I haven't actually seen much of it at a (awful phrase alert) "grass-roots level". I've no time either for those people such as they exist. If Corbyn wins, he wins. Fair enough - with the caveat that I'd change my mind if there was any evidence a significant part of Jezza's support was in fact these "mischievous Tories" rather than one or two *hilarious* jokers. If they're new Labour supporters, whether returning members driven away, or people who've never been members but won over by JC's message then it's totally right that they're welcomed and allowed to vote.

On the second part, firstly and crucially, it's not "we need to believe this because it's what middle england like", it's "we need to sell what we believe this way because it addresses the concerns middle england has". And yes, you're right that is strategy not policy. But strategy is important. For me the two important questions in this election are: 1) would this candidate be better for the country than Osbourne, Johnson or May? 2) can this candidate actually win? Policy is relevant to question 1), strategy (and to an extent policy too) to question 2).

Kendall and Cooper (not so much in this contest so far, but certainly in the past) have said enough about policy for me to be totally convinced that either would be better for the country than the Tories. And my dislike of Burnham probably means I'm being unfair to him too.

but neither kendall nor cooper fit your "could win an election" test! they don't even look as if they can win this little one..
neither could burnham... cooper?????? really????

why dismiss Corbyn on the basis that he couldn't win but not the other three?

This fallacy has cropped up a few times. They're different things. Cameron wouldn't have a cat in hell's chance of winning this little one...

As for the other three, I wouldn't put any of them close to a 50% but they all *could* win. In '92 John Major's Tories won more votes than anyone else had or has won. They then tore themselves apart over Europe and lost to a Labour landslide. For us to win I think we'll need some help from the Tories in 2017, but if it happens I'd like our alternative not to be banging on about the benefits of a command economy.

[Prufrock]

I've just had a text from Jezza's campaign team telling me he's backing Diane f*cking Abbot for Mayor.

Jesus wept.

[BWFC_Insane]

I've just had a text from Jezza's campaign team telling me he's backing Diane f*cking Abbot for Mayor.

Jesus wept.

What next, George Galloway as shadow chancellor? Actually I joke, but I'd not be surprised.....

[freeindeed]

15 times Jeremy Corbyn was on the right side of history.

https://theworldturnedupsidedownne.word ... f-history/

[freeindeed]

Anyone dispute the common sense of this "Robin hood tax” proposal by Corbyn?

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/com ... 29501.html

[thebish]

meanwhile, Corbyn is getting on with the job of campaigning and packing out ever larger venues every place he goes...

here's Camden:

well over 2500 people turned up. We're talking about a main hall packed to the rafters, two overflow rooms similarly packed - and hundreds listening in the street outside. Jeremy spoke 5 times in all - and even spoke to the crowd gathered outside from the top of a fire engine. Incredible stuff.

and here are desperate local (disengaged?) yoofs climbing the walls to catch a glimpse..



like it or not - Jezza mania is here...

[thebish]

I have yet to see a pic of any of the other three at a similar local meeting...

[Bruce Rioja]

Sorry to digress, Bish, but do you know which venue that is? It's exactly the sort of place in which I like to watch bands play.

[thebish]

Sorry to digress, Bish, but do you know which venue that is? It's exactly the sort of place in which I like to watch bands play.

I think it's Camden Town Hall...

[Prufrock]

Camden Town Hall I think, so King's Cross (rather than Camden Town).

No dispute that Jezza is the best at demagoguery.

[bobo the clown]

Sorry to digress, Bish, but do you know which venue that is? It's exactly the sort of place in which I like to watch bands play.

I think it's Camden Town Hall...

It was. ... & it may well have been a pop concert.

#2 son got in (so they weren't ALL fans then).

He described it as what he imagines rallies in 1930's Berlin would have been like. Not the faintest possibility of anything other than utter adoration. Chanting. Both "for" him and "against" .... well loads of things.

The usual left clapathon where each and every phrase.was applauded.

Then a follow up speech to those who couldn't get in as Corbyn spoke from the top of a "Fire Brigade Union" fire engine. It actually has that written on the sides apparently.

#2 did admit that Corbyn spoke fluently and calmly, for what it's worth.

C'mon Jezza. You can do this !!

[thebish]

bobo to the politics thread - winnie the poo to a honey pot!

[freeindeed]

The venue was The Camden Centre in Kings Cross.

Almost 2000 people in Liverpool on Sunday also:

http://www.liverpoolconfidential.co.uk/ ... M.facebook