The Politics Thread

[BWFC_Insane]

Wow 2000 people. There is of course a big move behind this because many on the left have felt marginalised for the last few decades. But the danger is thinking this mood is reflected more widely than it is. That is what is happening of course.

The pre-election debates and the context of the questions the voting public were asking is being discarded. The shift from centre to right in voting patterns is also being ignored.

Corbyn may well have some very strong momentum in the leftside of the Labour party. But I haven't seen or heard any other description of him from someone who isn't a Labour voter or hasn't been for a while that doesn't involve the words "joke, oldman, scruff, commie" somewhere along the line. That is the harsh reality if or when he does become Labour leader. Burnham et al. might have absolutely nothing unique or momentum building to say, but in the final analysis momentum or a wave now is of absolutely no value.

[freeindeed]

There is no danger There are massive crowds turning out in every town across the country wherever he speaks. Remind me of another political speaker attracting similar numbers...ever?

It is the beginning of a significant political shift; the wider electoral appeal at this moment is not important. This is part of an internal debate about direction. Once the new leader is in place, and the party's direction is clearly defined - then a wider debate can take place, and new members sought.

The 'Overton Window' shift from centre to right occurred due to the entire lack of a counter balancing weight from the left. Now it has arrived back with a thump.

Let's not talk of a final analysis about a movement that is in it's infancy. Saying it's doomed to failure is all too obvious, and far from certain in a time of worldwide political tumult.

[KeyserSoze]

There is no danger There are massive crowds turning out in every town across the country wherever he speaks. Remind me of another political speaker attracting similar numbers...ever?

Really?!

[Prufrock]

There is no danger There are massive crowds turning out in every town across the country wherever he speaks. Remind me of another political speaker attracting similar numbers...ever?

It is the beginning of a significant political shift; the wider electoral appeal at this moment is not important. This is part of an internal debate about direction. Once the new leader is in place, and the party's direction is clearly defined - then a wider debate can take place, and new members sought.

The 'Overton Window' shift from centre to right occurred due to the entire lack of a counter balancing weight from the left. Now it has arrived back with a thump.

Let's not talk of a final analysis about a movement that is in it's infancy. Saying it's doomed to failure is all too obvious, and far from certain in a time of worldwide political tumult.

Hitler?

Or, more pertinently, Michael Foot!

[Bruce Rioja]

There is no danger There are massive crowds turning out in every town across the country wherever he speaks.

Sure, but if he was on on the town hall steps I reckon that I'd turn out to listen to what he has to say too. It doesn't follow that I'd either agree with him or vote for him though.

[thebish]

Wow 2000 people. There is of course a big move behind this because many on the left have felt marginalised for the last few decades. But the danger is thinking this mood is reflected more widely than it is. That is what is happening of course.

The pre-election debates and the context of the questions the voting public were asking is being discarded. The shift from centre to right in voting patterns is also being ignored.

Corbyn may well have some very strong momentum in the leftside of the Labour party. But I haven't seen or heard any other description of him from someone who isn't a Labour voter or hasn't been for a while that doesn't involve the words "joke, oldman, scruff, commie" somewhere along the line. That is the harsh reality if or when he does become Labour leader. Burnham et al. might have absolutely nothing unique or momentum building to say, but in the final analysis momentum or a wave now is of absolutely no value.

that may or may not be true... but - ask anyone who is not a labour voter who any of the other three actually even ARE or to pick them out from a lineup - and they wouldn't have a clue... ask them what the feck any of the other three stand for - would you expect anyone to have any idea whatsoever??

if the price of being elected is believing in nothing and doing nothing that isn't already being done - then I fail to see the point of being elected... I think there is a subtle, yet pernicious, idea that labour could somehow front up with a leader who SAYS s/he will basically do everything the tories do - only slightly more compassionately (whatever the feck that means!) - and then, when in power, do something else - something radical and useful... truth is - they wouldn't - if they got elected on that ticket (which they wouldn't) then they would spend the next 5yrs ensuring that they get elected on that same ticket next time around!

also - ask non tory voters what they think of cameron and osborne - I bet you won't hear a paeon of praise!

[Prufrock]

Wow 2000 people. There is of course a big move behind this because many on the left have felt marginalised for the last few decades. But the danger is thinking this mood is reflected more widely than it is. That is what is happening of course.

The pre-election debates and the context of the questions the voting public were asking is being discarded. The shift from centre to right in voting patterns is also being ignored.

Corbyn may well have some very strong momentum in the leftside of the Labour party. But I haven't seen or heard any other description of him from someone who isn't a Labour voter or hasn't been for a while that doesn't involve the words "joke, oldman, scruff, commie" somewhere along the line. That is the harsh reality if or when he does become Labour leader. Burnham et al. might have absolutely nothing unique or momentum building to say, but in the final analysis momentum or a wave now is of absolutely no value.

that may or may not be true... but - ask anyone who is not a labour voter who any of the other three actually even ARE or to pick them out from a lineup - and they wouldn't have a clue... ask them what the feck any of the other three stand for - would you expect anyone to have any idea whatsoever??

if the price of being elected is believing in nothing and doing nothing that isn't already being done - then I fail to see the point of being elected... I think there is a subtle, yet pernicious, idea that labour could somehow front up with a leader who SAYS s/he will basically do everything the tories do - only slightly more compassionately (whatever the feck that means!) - and then, when in power, do something else - something radical and useful... truth is - they wouldn't - if they got elected on that ticket (which they wouldn't) then they would spend the next 5yrs ensuring that they get elected on that same ticket next time around!

also - ask non tory voters what they think of cameron and osborne - I bet you won't hear a paeon of praise!

Ha -That's the straw-maniest of all the straw-man arguments this straw-man-hunter has ever seen!

Not one person has argued for someone to do "basically everything the Tories do only slightly more compassionately". As for "whatever that means", well, you've just made it up, so if you don't know, who does?!

Just saying the other three are basically Tories doesn't make it so. It's a self-indulgent cop out that makes people feel better about handing the Tories another five years so they can vote for their "principles".

[Bruce Rioja]

ask anyone who is not a labour voter who any of the other three actually even ARE or to pick them out from a lineup - and they wouldn't have a clue... ask them what the feck any of the other three stand for - would you expect anyone to have any idea whatsoever??

I've heard of and recognise Andy Burnham but don't know what he stands for. I couldn't even tell you the sex of the other two, and didn't know that this was a four way thing.

[Worthy4England]

Surely, given that governments are generally elected by a huge minority of voters, the whole shebang is just to do as little as possible to upset them and maybe just enough to swing a few, your way. Feels to me, that's what elections are all about in England....

[bobo the clown]

ask anyone who is not a labour voter who any of the other three actually even ARE or to pick them out from a lineup - and they wouldn't have a clue... ask them what the feck any of the other three stand for - would you expect anyone to have any idea whatsoever??

I've heard of and recognise Andy Burnham but don't know what he stands for. I couldn't even tell you the sex of the other two, and didn't know that this was a four way thing.

Burnham stands for whatever Burnham needs to say or do to get elected.

The other two, Bruce, are Totty. Well, I say Totty. No-Tails ... as one is Ed Balls missus and pixie impressionist, while the other is reasonably attractive ex Greg Davies girlfriend. So she likes 'em big. She's the one being accused of being Tony Blair in a frock and has no chance whatsoever ... and is probably more hated by the new-left alliance than Cameron, right now.

There ... telling it like it is.

[Bruce Rioja]

ask anyone who is not a labour voter who any of the other three actually even ARE or to pick them out from a lineup - and they wouldn't have a clue... ask them what the feck any of the other three stand for - would you expect anyone to have any idea whatsoever??

I've heard of and recognise Andy Burnham but don't know what he stands for. I couldn't even tell you the sex of the other two, and didn't know that this was a four way thing.

Burnham stands for whatever Burnham needs to say or do to get elected.

The other two, Bruce, are Totty. Well, I say Totty. No-Tails ... as one is Ed Balls missus and pixie impressionist, while the other is reasonably attractive ex Greg Davies girlfriend. So she likes 'em big. She's the one being accused of being Tony Blair in a frock and has no chance whatsoever ... and is probably more hated by the new-left alliance than Cameron, right now.

There ... telling it like it is.

I've just been having a look. I see that there are are couple of half-decent sorts running for Deputy Leader.

[freeindeed]

Or, more pertinently, Michael Foot!

I have no knowledge about the crowds that Michael Foot drew to be honest. Did he hold a similar profile?

Sure, but if he was on on the town hall steps I reckon that I'd turn out to listen to what he has to say too. It doesn't follow that I'd either agree with him or vote for him though.

At the very least it is unusual for a political speaker outside of a general election to draw such big crowds. This may be as good as it gets, but I believe his support will grow further. Most of the people at these meetings definitely will vote for him, whether his policies will attract the wider public to vote for him remains to be seen. I don't see why not though, as they will benefit the majority of people!

[freeindeed]

Not one person has argued for someone to do "basically everything the Tories do only slightly more compassionately". As for "whatever that means", well, you've just made it up, so if you don't know, who does?!

Just saying the other three are basically Tories doesn't make it so. It's a self-indulgent cop out that makes people feel better about handing the Tories another five years so they can vote for their "principles".

Yes they have. They have agreed with the Tories economic analysis, agreed with "austerity" and would all continue with the doomed Neo-liberal economic model. In the wider picture of political debate, that is a right of centre ideology as opposed to Corbyns "Left" ideology.

It is not self indulgence - it's a very clear and opposed point of view.

[Prufrock]

Bollocks. Straight up bollocks!

Who has? When?

And re: your final sentence, they're not mutually exclusive. Crowds, nay swarms, of middle-class lefties who will be fine anyway want to vote for Corbyn so they can be ideologically pure in the pub. You seem somehow to genuinely believe Jezza can win, so I'm not including you, but loads of this lot happily admit he can't. In order to make themselves feel better about chucking the poor under the bus for the next ten years they then have to argue either that the other three are Tories anyway really (bollocks) or that none of them can win either (also bollocks, though all three will find it tough).

[thebish]

Not one person has argued for someone to do "basically everything the Tories do only slightly more compassionately". As for "whatever that means", well, you've just made it up, so if you don't know, who does?!

well - apart from you a few pages ago!

[Prufrock]

...nope ?

[thebish]

...nope ?

yep!

[freeindeed]

Bollocks. Straight up bollocks!

Who has? When?

Did you miss the last general election?

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... nding-cuts

Have you missed the relentless vitriolic attacks on Corbyn from Labours right in the last few weeks? Ummuna, Hunt, Kendall, Cooper, Leslie etc saying they would never serve a Corbyn cabinet.
Blair would rather Labour lost than win on a left platform!! Where were their attacks of a similair ferocity on the Tories in the general election? Where was the passion then? The reason is that all these Mp's are in fact much closer to Cameron than they are to Corbyn - it's obvious.

but loads of this lot happily admit he can't. In order to make themselves feel better about chucking the poor under the bus for the next ten years they then have to argue either that the other three are Tories anyway really (bollocks) or that none of them can win either (also bollocks, though all three will find it tough).

It's not theirs to 'admit' because they do not know. The political landscape in 2020 will be completely different. The Tories callous cuts will not have a happy ending.

How anyone from the indisputably unelectable Labour right can pin that label on a new, vibrant and as yet undefined campaign is quite amazing to behold.

[BWFC_Insane]

It's hard to say this without sounding insulting but Corbyn supporters really seem out of touch with the real world. Even more so than Milliband and his troop were.

No danger? The danger is Osborne or May for 5 years after this. Then big Boris after that. Then who knows...that is the danger.

But instead of thinking how can we stop or challenge that, it's better to pretend there is a great political mindshare shift taking place whilst ignoring every single piece of factual evidence to the contrary.

To suggest that Labour losing votes from 2010 to 2015 to the Tories is because there wasn't a coherent left of left wing voice is absolutely barmy. And those ultimately are the votes that count. The swings from Labour to Tory in marginals and visa versa.

The whole thing gives me a headache to be honest. I know that the Tories must be laughing themselves stupid. Osborne was their potential weakness and he's likely to face more challenge from within than anything Labour can conjure up.

[thebish]

i don't know how anyone can be as SURE about the political landscape as you present yourself as being... milliband sold himself (along with burnham and cooper in prominent positions) as an inoffensive tory-lite alternative (of sorts)... - a LOOOOOOONG way from being anything thaty could be described as "left" - and they were absolutely TRUMPED...

what makes you think Cooper and Burnham will suddenly get it right? I have seen NOTHING in their campaigns so far to suggest anything different from what labour offered over the last 5 years.

maybe I've missed it, though - ARE they offering anything different to what milliband offered? anything at all?

if not - then why would burnham succeed where milliband failed so badly? are you thinking he would win by having more charisma than milliband? and if not him - Cooper?