The Politics Thread

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Who will you be voting for?

Labour
13
41%
Conservatives
12
38%
Liberal Democrats
2
6%
UK Independence Party (UKIP)
0
No votes
Green Party
3
9%
Plaid Cymru
0
No votes
Other
1
3%
Planet Hobo
1
3%
 
Total votes: 32

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Montreal Wanderer
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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by Montreal Wanderer » Mon Aug 10, 2015 2:59 pm

William the White wrote:Mrs de Blanc and myself registered as Labour supporters today.

We'll be voting for Jeremy.
:shock: Are you cancelling your subscription to the World Marxist Review as well? :wink:
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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by thebish » Mon Aug 10, 2015 3:13 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
I'm not sure of the obsession with having a definitive left vs definitive right setup comes from. I think that isn't a real fight that will happen. Unless the Tories go mad and frankly I don't see that in the next 5 years.
it kinda depends how you define "going mad" I guess... some might say that in order to meet his promises on wiping out the deficit, Osborne WILL have to go fairly mad - and i think we know who the targets of that madness will be...

Cameron is just the cuddly face of what lies behind - a quite ruthless and deliberate policy of ideological state-reduction disguised in the word "austerity"...

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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by Lord Kangana » Mon Aug 10, 2015 3:29 pm

bobo the clown wrote:^^^ So what do you suggest Vicar ?

Only reduce benefits for people who aren't vulnerable ? Or continue forever with an in affordable benefit regime and one which does nothing to ween people off it ?
I've been away for a while, so forgive me if this has been answered, but...

1) Who says our system is inaffordable (sic)?

2) How do you ween the disabled off being disabled? I'm just intrigued as to how you would get a deaf-mute paraplegic off benefits and back to work, say for example.
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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by Bruce Rioja » Mon Aug 10, 2015 3:34 pm

William the White wrote:Mrs de Blanc and myself registered as Labour supporters today.

We'll be voting for Jeremy.
Me too. ;)
May the bridges I burn light your way

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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by BWFC_Insane » Mon Aug 10, 2015 3:37 pm

thebish wrote:
BWFC_Insane wrote:
I'm not sure of the obsession with having a definitive left vs definitive right setup comes from. I think that isn't a real fight that will happen. Unless the Tories go mad and frankly I don't see that in the next 5 years.
it kinda depends how you define "going mad" I guess... some might say that in order to meet his promises on wiping out the deficit, Osborne WILL have to go fairly mad - and i think we know who the targets of that madness will be...

Cameron is just the cuddly face of what lies behind - a quite ruthless and deliberate policy of ideological state-reduction disguised in the word "austerity"...
Going mad would be if they decided to reduce significantly the top rate of tax and sold off what is left of the NHS to the highest bidder. I'm sure they'd like to do both those things but tactically aren't stupid or brave enough (depending how you view it) to do so yet.

And they'll continue the taking away from poor and vulnerable people with one hand and giving with the other in their typically clever divide and rule tactic of appealing to those who flog themselves silly for 100 hours a week for tuppence whilst making them hate those too sick or old or carrying out caring duties so unable to work.

Having said that, Hoboh (I think it is Hoboh) was right when he said there are significant numbers of people living off benefits with zero intention of doing anything else. It has become a generational thing in many Northern towns (and probably elsewhere). The Tories are using a sledgehammer (and the favourable tide of public opinion) to crack this nut whereas I'm not entirely sure what Labour would do about it. It is something that parties simply cannot ignore anymore though. It isn't a financial issue but a social one that needs tackling and soon.

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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by Prufrock » Mon Aug 10, 2015 3:59 pm

Was he? How many? Where?
In a world that has decided
That it's going to lose its mind
Be more kind, my friends, try to be more kind.

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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by thebish » Mon Aug 10, 2015 4:03 pm

Lord Kangana wrote:
bobo the clown wrote:^^^ So what do you suggest Vicar ?

Only reduce benefits for people who aren't vulnerable ? Or continue forever with an in affordable benefit regime and one which does nothing to ween people off it ?
I've been away for a while, so forgive me if this has been answered, but...

1) Who says our system is inaffordable (sic)?

2) How do you ween the disabled off being disabled? I'm just intrigued as to how you would get a deaf-mute paraplegic off benefits and back to work, say for example.

I did answer it - but, true to form, Bobo didn't answer the question I then asked him...

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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by thebish » Mon Aug 10, 2015 4:06 pm

Prufrock wrote:Was he? How many? Where?
to be fair - he already answered that bit... "many Northern towns" was his answer..

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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by Hoboh » Mon Aug 10, 2015 4:29 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
thebish wrote:
BWFC_Insane wrote:
I'm not sure of the obsession with having a definitive left vs definitive right setup comes from. I think that isn't a real fight that will happen. Unless the Tories go mad and frankly I don't see that in the next 5 years.
it kinda depends how you define "going mad" I guess... some might say that in order to meet his promises on wiping out the deficit, Osborne WILL have to go fairly mad - and i think we know who the targets of that madness will be...

Cameron is just the cuddly face of what lies behind - a quite ruthless and deliberate policy of ideological state-reduction disguised in the word "austerity"...
Going mad would be if they decided to reduce significantly the top rate of tax and sold off what is left of the NHS to the highest bidder. I'm sure they'd like to do both those things but tactically aren't stupid or brave enough (depending how you view it) to do so yet.

And they'll continue the taking away from poor and vulnerable people with one hand and giving with the other in their typically clever divide and rule tactic of appealing to those who flog themselves silly for 100 hours a week for tuppence whilst making them hate those too sick or old or carrying out caring duties so unable to work.

Having said that, Hoboh (I think it is Hoboh) was right when he said there are significant numbers of people living off benefits with zero intention of doing anything else. It has become a generational thing in many Northern towns (and probably elsewhere). The Tories are using a sledgehammer (and the favourable tide of public opinion) to crack this nut whereas I'm not entirely sure what Labour would do about it. It is something that parties simply cannot ignore anymore though. It isn't a financial issue but a social one that needs tackling and soon.
You see that's the crux of it, benefits were to stop people, starving, keep a roof over their heads, stop folk being destitute until they got back to work. The range of benefits and quite rightly has expanded over time to cover the chronically sick and disabled, these benefits got the most abuse, even from governments who pushed folk onto disability benefit to cover up the true scale of unemployment in the past. Now after various tightening of the rules most of the bogus claimants are out of the system and the welfare focus should be moved elsewhere, the mindless procreation of kids and the expectancy that the state is responsible for them, £30, 40, 50 grand a year going into certain households (as much as many earn on here I suspect), the idea that benefits should be paying for lifestyles, flat screen TV's, Sky, mobile phones, fags, nights down the pub, all because 'others do it why not us' is totally wrong but that is how some folk see it.
The Tories are picking on the easier targets still, in the form of the chronically sick and disabled and that is wrong headed.

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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by Hoboh » Mon Aug 10, 2015 4:31 pm

thebish wrote:
Prufrock wrote:Was he? How many? Where?
to be fair - he already answered that bit... "many Northern towns" was his answer..
I reckon that foreign country aka Rome in GB, Tower hamlets, might house more than a few!

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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by Hoboh » Mon Aug 10, 2015 4:37 pm

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... t-57249795" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

That alone should be worth thousands of votes to Corbyn!

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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by BWFC_Insane » Mon Aug 10, 2015 4:48 pm

Prufrock wrote:Was he? How many? Where?
He was. It isn't financially significant of course compared to tax evasion. But it is a thing. Go round several estates in Bolton and there are loads of kids whose parents have never had a job. The kids think this is the norm and are given low aspiration and the cycle continues.

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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by Prufrock » Mon Aug 10, 2015 5:06 pm

Oh, "loads"? I'm going to need something a bit more specific than that.

No one doubts some people are out to take the piss, we've all seen them on telly, but while it's galling, there comes a point where it costs more to go after the people gaming the system than you save by catching them. And that's without factoring in the social "cost" of people who are validly claiming being made to feel like lepers.

People keep talking about the "unaffordable" cost of welfare and "loads" of scroungers but I've never seen any numbers to support that. The only numbers I've actually seen are that 1% of 1% of the total welfare bill are most to fraudsters. The majority goes on pensions
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That it's going to lose its mind
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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by Hoboh » Mon Aug 10, 2015 5:15 pm

Prufrock wrote:Oh, "loads"? I'm going to need something a bit more specific than that.

No one doubts some people are out to take the piss, we've all seen them on telly, but while it's galling, there comes a point where it costs more to go after the people gaming the system than you save by catching them. And that's without factoring in the social "cost" of people who are validly claiming being made to feel like lepers.

People keep talking about the "unaffordable" cost of welfare and "loads" of scroungers but I've never seen any numbers to support that. The only numbers I've actually seen are that 1% of 1% of the total welfare bill are most to fraudsters. The majority goes on pensions
I suspect you hardly know anyone on welfare nor have much experience of large council estates, there are still a significant number who take the pee.
Oh and I love the pension cop out as used countless times by those avoiding the point.

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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by Abdoulaye's Twin » Mon Aug 10, 2015 5:19 pm

Sort out housing and you'll cut the benefit bill quite substantially.

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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by freeindeed » Mon Aug 10, 2015 5:24 pm

They are the neighbouring countries, not too far so when the war sorts its self out they have not got far to go to rebuild the country they came from.
Lets get one thing clear who the feck are ISIS, shed loads of foreigners or their fellow countrymen, even sons!
If Germany chooses to take in 100,000 that is Germanys choice, if we don't want any that's our choice (and you can slag off the mail all you like, it ain't just there pal that folk are commenting NO)
The point about the numbers going to different countries, is that regardless of the causes, there is a humanitarian crisis taking place. We should show solidarity with our fellow human beings (not swarms or plagues) and take our fair share of the burden. Otherwise we end up with a third world slum town on our doorstep.
Of course preaching as the mad arse socialist propaganda agent you are, I would expect the line of your view being imposed on everyone for the good of all!
I have posted links mainly to blogs. Individual opinion with very small readership. I have linked articles to the supposedly left wing Guardian which has published articles against Jeremy Corbyn at a ratio of 3:1

You are quoting a right wing media group that reaches 55% of the whole population, with fear inducing bile and a disgraceful history of outright lies and yes they sympathised with the fecking Nazi's.

Who is preaching the mad arse propaganda?

From Afghanistan you have to cross shed loads of countries to get to Greece and we didn't cause the problems in Syria, forgotten the Arab spring uprising? You know the one were shed loads of people from rural areas flooded into towns and cities, stirred up the shit and split the population and are now legging it off?
If as you claim that the bulk of migrants are economic; tell me why the vast majority are from countries at civil war? Coincidence?


Again so what?
That's legal applications not wankers jumping out of trucks at motorway services.
Calm, peaceful, migrants who will contribute to our society, or lawless, stop at nothing thugs to get their own way, smashing down fences and threatening drivers?

For "Wankers" - see desperate human beings, willing to risk their lives to enter a safe haven. The reason they are trying to get into the UK is cos they speak some English. Just like the French speaking Africans are in France etc etc.
Loosen that fear clenched sphincter of yours, put down the Daily bile and have a bit of fecking compassion, pal. :wink:

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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by freeindeed » Mon Aug 10, 2015 5:25 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:It is depressing how far we've regressed that it is virtually ok for a politician to start saying "we don't want none of these here foreign types coming over here causing trouble"..

Very depressing. The rhetoric is absolutely terrible.

This is a global problem that we are part of. It needs a global solution, not Britain standing saying "we're alright we're British, close the borders". Why on earth shouldn't we take a fair share of the asylum seekers here? Why not? We're talking small numbers and I see little reason to not take some of these migrants when other countries are bearing a far larger load.

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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by BWFC_Insane » Mon Aug 10, 2015 5:30 pm

Prufrock wrote:Oh, "loads"? I'm going to need something a bit more specific than that.

No one doubts some people are out to take the piss, we've all seen them on telly, but while it's galling, there comes a point where it costs more to go after the people gaming the system than you save by catching them. And that's without factoring in the social "cost" of people who are validly claiming being made to feel like lepers.

People keep talking about the "unaffordable" cost of welfare and "loads" of scroungers but I've never seen any numbers to support that. The only numbers I've actually seen are that 1% of 1% of the total welfare bill are most to fraudsters. The majority goes on pensions
It isn't for me about cutting welfare but about addressing a social problem that is often a cycle repeated throughout generations. And it isn't so much fraudsters here but just people who can't or won't find work.

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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by freeindeed » Mon Aug 10, 2015 5:30 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Hoboh wrote: Europe will do for the Tories, unfortunately for labour because of their softness on migrants and the love of the EU it won't do them any good either
Actually a good example. Back in the day, the left of the Labour party were anti-EU. In fact I suspect the some of the Labour left wing still are to be honest.
Corbyn is very luke warm towards Europe, and strongly against what the unelected financiers have done to the people of Greece.
“Labour should set out its own clear position to influence negotiations, working with our European allies to set out a reform agenda to benefit ordinary Europeans across the continent. We cannot be content with the state of the EU as it stands. But that does not mean walking away, but staying to fight together for a better Europe.”

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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by freeindeed » Mon Aug 10, 2015 5:37 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Prufrock wrote:Was he? How many? Where?
He was. It isn't financially significant of course compared to tax evasion. But it is a thing. Go round several estates in Bolton and there are loads of kids whose parents have never had a job. The kids think this is the norm and are given low aspiration and the cycle continues.
The problem is that given that upbringing, they are uneducated with no skills, no work history and so cutting their (bare minimum) access to the basics of survival is more likely to force them turn to crime or become homeless than it is to get a job. The social cost (and financial) turns out to be much greater in the end. It's a false economy; all justified by the press vilyfying them as 'scroungers' when really they have just been brought up in the poverty cycle.

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