The Politics Thread

[Prufrock]

The trains thing is bizarre. As other people have pointed out, it wouldn't have been hard for him to find a train where you can't get a seat. And our trains are insanely expensive.

The private/public argument is weird. #1 there is no market. If south east are shit, you still have to get a South East train. #2 a significant % of our train franchises are run by the state. Just not or state. As with energy, we're ok with state-run, as long as it's not our state, which seems bonkers to me.

But yet again the point is lost in Jeremy's piss-poor attempt at spin. Which he doesn't do.

[Lord Kangana]

We had to wait on the decisions of the French Unions before we got the green light to proceed with Hinckley. That'd be because the state-owned EDF is the only company with the expertise to build it. And it still has strong unions.

[thebish]

You ACTUALLY believe this is spoofed up ? Really ??

Mad as a frog.

I think you may be having a problem with the reading...

two stories - both parties with obvious agendas - who to believe? I said I wouldn't know (reliably) which to believe.

YOU pick one as a definite truth.

you're the mad one! mad as a box of welsh badgers.

Except virgin have released photographic evidence...

they've released photographs - but "evidence" of what?

there are a couple of things that just give me pause before full-steaming into instant belief if what virgin trains media desk have to say..

1) they are not a disinterested neutral observer
2) they have relied on inconclusive cctv footage (that only shows the backs of seats) when (surely?) the easiest option is for Branson to produce the train guard - or a statement from the train guard - who could quite categorically say whether or not there were loads of empty seats when Jezza was sat on the floor... but - for some reason we can only guess at - they haven't produced the testimony of anyone who was on the train and in a position to know what seats were empty at what times (AFAIK)

so... I will remain open-minded

we have two accounts - both plausible - and no obvious reason to leap gung-ho into treating one as gospel and one as lies... simple!

[BWFC_Insane]

they've released photographs - but "evidence" of what?

there are a couple of things that just give me pause before full-steaming into instant belief if what virgin trains media desk have to say..

1) they are not a disinterested neutral observer
2) they have relied on inconclusive cctv footage (that only shows the backs of seats) when (surely?) the easiest option is for Branson to produce the train guard - or a statement from the train guard - who could quite categorically say whether or not there were loads of empty seats when Jezza was sat on the floor... but - for some reason we can only guess at - they haven't produced the testimony of anyone who was on the train and in a position to know what seats were empty at what times (AFAIK)

so... I will remain open-minded

we have two accounts - both plausible - and no obvious reason to leap gung-ho into treating one as gospel and one as lies... simple!

Bish, I'll ask again. Corbyn gave an account yesterday, once the "evidence" came to light. Fine. But did he at the time of making the video, explain that a few minutes later he was seated, and that there were seats available prior to him sitting on the floor just not ones together with his wife?

Because you see, that is the issue. The fact he clarifies now, is clearly neither here nor there - he didn't have a choice. The point is whether this was clarified at the time or immediately after he claimed the train was "ram-packed" with the very clear suggestion that he was sat on the floor because there were no seats available?

[thebish]

they've released photographs - but "evidence" of what?

there are a couple of things that just give me pause before full-steaming into instant belief if what virgin trains media desk have to say..

1) they are not a disinterested neutral observer
2) they have relied on inconclusive cctv footage (that only shows the backs of seats) when (surely?) the easiest option is for Branson to produce the train guard - or a statement from the train guard - who could quite categorically say whether or not there were loads of empty seats when Jezza was sat on the floor... but - for some reason we can only guess at - they haven't produced the testimony of anyone who was on the train and in a position to know what seats were empty at what times (AFAIK)

so... I will remain open-minded

we have two accounts - both plausible - and no obvious reason to leap gung-ho into treating one as gospel and one as lies... simple!

Bish, I'll ask again. Corbyn gave an account yesterday, once the "evidence" came to light. Fine. But did he at the time of making the video, explain that a few minutes later he was seated, and that there were seats available prior to him sitting on the floor just not ones together with his wife?

Because you see, that is the issue. The fact he clarifies now, is clearly neither here nor there - he didn't have a choice. The point is whether this was clarified at the time or immediately after he claimed the train was "ram-packed" with the very clear suggestion that he was sat on the floor because there were no seats available?

aye - he said at the time that he was sat on the floor cos there were no seats available - and that other people were in the same situation and that he turned down the option to upgrade his ticket to first class (cos not everyone has the means to do that and you shouldn't have to if you have bought a ticket) and that later in the journey the very helpful train staff upgraded a young family to first class and he and his team were able to sit in their vacated seats. at the time he went out of hus way to praise the helpful train staff - cos - they helped him as best they could in the situation.

in response to Virgin's footage, he/his team says that the seats alleged to be empty in the cctv footage had bags on them - presumably (as worthy suggests) - people in the food carriage lined up for sandwiches and crisps... or gone to the bog - it happens on trains! (otherwise we'd have the headline "entitled Jezza and his team steal seats on train"!)

what is it about this perfectly plausible account that you find so obviously implausible that you conclude it is definitely a total lie? we have two accounts - both possible - I'm not sure you or I are in any position to know...

why do you think Branson/Virgin have not done the obvious thing and provided for us the testimony of the train guard - the person who would be able to sort this out easily?

[BWFC_Insane]

they've released photographs - but "evidence" of what?

there are a couple of things that just give me pause before full-steaming into instant belief if what virgin trains media desk have to say..

1) they are not a disinterested neutral observer
2) they have relied on inconclusive cctv footage (that only shows the backs of seats) when (surely?) the easiest option is for Branson to produce the train guard - or a statement from the train guard - who could quite categorically say whether or not there were loads of empty seats when Jezza was sat on the floor... but - for some reason we can only guess at - they haven't produced the testimony of anyone who was on the train and in a position to know what seats were empty at what times (AFAIK)

so... I will remain open-minded

we have two accounts - both plausible - and no obvious reason to leap gung-ho into treating one as gospel and one as lies... simple!

Bish, I'll ask again. Corbyn gave an account yesterday, once the "evidence" came to light. Fine. But did he at the time of making the video, explain that a few minutes later he was seated, and that there were seats available prior to him sitting on the floor just not ones together with his wife?

Because you see, that is the issue. The fact he clarifies now, is clearly neither here nor there - he didn't have a choice. The point is whether this was clarified at the time or immediately after he claimed the train was "ram-packed" with the very clear suggestion that he was sat on the floor because there were no seats available?

aye - he said at the time that he was sat on the floor cos there were no seats available - and that other people were in the same situation and that he turned down the option to upgrade his ticket to first class (cos not everyone has the means to do that and you shouldn't have to if you have bought a ticket) and that later in the journey the very helpful train staff upgraded a young family to first class and he and his team were able to sit in their vacated seats. at the time he went out of hus way to praise the helpful train staff - cos - they helped him as best they could in the situation.

in response to Virgin's footage, he/his team says that the seats alleged to be empty in the cctv footage had bags on them - presumably (as worthy suggests) - people in the food carriage lined up for sandwiches and crisps... or gone to the bog - it happens on trains! (otherwise we'd have the headline "entitled Jezza and his team steal seats on train"!)

what is it about this perfectly plausible account that you find so obviously implausible that you conclude it is definitely a total lie? we have two accounts - both possible - I'm not sure you or I are in any position to know...

why do you think Branson/Virgin have not done the obvious thing and provided for us the testimony of the train guard - the person who would be able to sort this out easily?

But yesterday his team told the guardian there were seats available, just not where he could sit with his wife.....

So that for me is the key thing, did he say in his video (or soon after) "there is a seat on the train, just not one next to my wife". Or did that just come to light yesterday after the video footage from Virgin?

[bobo the clown]

Jesus wept Bish. Step back & look at yourself.

I know you want a Communist led Labour Party but this is stupid.

[thebish]

Jesus wept Bish. Step back & look at yourself.

I know you want a Communist led Labour Party but this is stupid.

hmmm... head - shake, perhaps??

(I think you've got yourself a bit giddy!)

[Prufrock]

Oh my giddy aunt.

#definitely,definitely.not.a.cult

[Bruce Rioja]

He's made a right c*nt of himself. Fin.

[boltonboris]

Yeah he's been made to look a bit of a tit. Bit of a bullshitter, but that's the case with absolutely every single politician ever.

Not sure I get the massive witchunt and why there's such hysteria by a few on here, but hey ho..

[BWFC_Insane]

Yeah he's been made to look a bit of a tit. Bit of a bullshitter, but that's the case with absolutely every single politician ever.

Not sure I get the massive witchunt and why there's such hysteria by a few on here, but hey ho..

Because he and his supporters have tried very hard to persuade people he isn't like "every single politician ever". And now that facade has come crumbling down so they start accusing Virgin of "forging" footage.

The outcry is not in my view against Corbyn, who has been exposed of indulging in the same spin the likes of Blair was partial to. But his supporters who seem so fanatacial so literally obsessed that rather than concede that Jeremy has at best made a fool of himself and at worst been deliberately deceptive would rather try and pretend there is some massive conspiracy against him. I really don't mind if they come to the view that they still support him inspite of what might have been a bit of a silly thing to do.

It is more the rather vociferous and nonsensical reaction of "well Virgin would say that wouldn't they?" amid accusations that the footage is "faked". I mean, 1) Virgin's motives are entirely irrelevant here UNLESS you believe they've faked the footage.

Then to ignore the fact that Corbyn has acknowledged there were free seats but he sat on the floor anyway AS PART OF HIS SUPPOSED DEFENCE OF THE VIRGIN CLAIMS.

They are in serious denial and I think that is why there is so much mouth frothing both ways.

[Beefheart]

Exactly, if you're going to try and cynically make political capital (like what all the politicians do) by attempting to appear as though you're different from all of the other politicians its important that you don't get caught out to be a fraud and then try and spin it (like what all the other politicians do, only usually to better effect). As ever, he's gone straight from an open goal to an own goal and, as ever, is looking for somebody else to pin the blame on.

[CrazyHorse]

Yeah he's been made to look a bit of a tit. Bit of a bullshitter, but that's the case with absolutely every single politician ever.

Not sure I get the massive witchunt and why there's such hysteria by a few on here, but hey ho..

Because there's always hysteria by some on here. Usually by folk telling others they're getting a bit giddy.

[Abdoulaye's Twin]

He's made a right c*nt of himself. Fin.

A fair and proper assessment.

[bobo the clown]

He's made a right c*nt of himself. Fin.

Bish .... or Jeremy ?

[Harry Genshaw]

Politician tries to make a point - however badly and ham fisted about a train service.

Train service is upset at perceived criticism so bites back.

Politician responds with his version of events.

I'm with Bish - how can any of us know what the actual sequence of events was and the whole truth of the matter? Perhaps my liking of JC makes me more inclined to believe his version. Perhaps others disliking of him leads to them championing Virgins version?

[BWFC_Insane]

Politician tries to make a point - however badly and ham fisted about a train service.

Train service is upset at perceived criticism so bites back.

Politician responds with his version of events.

I'm with Bish - how can any of us know what the actual sequence of events was and the whole truth of the matter? Perhaps my liking of JC makes me more inclined to believe his version. Perhaps others disliking of him leads to them championing Virgins version?

There aren't two versions.

I don't know where this idea there are two versions come from.

Virgin say there were spare seats . Jeremy says there were spare seats but he sat on the floor anyway because there wasn't two seats next to each other spare.

That is one version. Jeremy could have taken a seat but chose not to. Then proclaimed the train to be "ram-packed".

[Bruce Rioja]

Politician tries to make a point - however badly and ham fisted about a train service.

Train service is upset at perceived criticism so bites back.

Politician responds with his version of events.

I'm with Bish - how can any of us know what the actual sequence of events was and the whole truth of the matter? Perhaps my liking of JC makes me more inclined to believe his version. Perhaps others disliking of him leads to them championing Virgins version?

I've heard several accounts from eye witnesses whom I assume aren't on Virgin's payroll, who all, that's each and everyone of them said that basically Corbyn's made a right nice person of himself.

[Harry Genshaw]

I tried to ignore the whole farce yesterday but ended up reading 2 accounts with photographs of families sat near him who said the train was packed. I thought (& the story may have moved on since then so aplos) that seats then became available when a family moved into 1st class?