The Politics Thread

[BWFC_Insane]

Europe will do for the Tories, unfortunately for labour because of their softness on migrants and the love of the EU it won't do them any good either

Actually a good example. Back in the day, the left of the Labour party were anti-EU. In fact I suspect the some of the Labour left wing still are to be honest.

Corbyn is very luke warm towards Europe, and strongly against what the unelected financiers have done to the people of Greece.

“Labour should set out its own clear position to influence negotiations, working with our European allies to set out a reform agenda to benefit ordinary Europeans across the continent. We cannot be content with the state of the EU as it stands. But that does not mean walking away, but staying to fight together for a better Europe.”

So basically, Corbyn = Cameron on Europe then?

[Hoboh]

They are the neighbouring countries, not too far so when the war sorts its self out they have not got far to go to rebuild the country they came from.
Lets get one thing clear who the feck are ISIS, shed loads of foreigners or their fellow countrymen, even sons!
If Germany chooses to take in 100,000 that is Germanys choice, if we don't want any that's our choice (and you can slag off the mail all you like, it ain't just there pal that folk are commenting NO)

The point about the numbers going to different countries, is that regardless of the causes, there is a humanitarian crisis taking place. We should show solidarity with our fellow human beings (not swarms or plagues) and take our fair share of the burden. Otherwise we end up with a third world slum town on our doorstep.
We already have a third world slum town on our doorsteps created by those now intent on exporting it to us, they are not my fellow human beings anymore than an ant in Manchester feels any empathy for an ant in London.

Of course preaching as the mad arse socialist propaganda agent you are, I would expect the line of your view being imposed on everyone for the good of all!

I have posted links mainly to blogs. Individual opinion with very small readership. I have linked articles to the supposedly left wing Guardian which has published articles against Jeremy Corbyn at a ratio of 3:1

You are quoting a right wing media group that reaches 55% of the whole population, with fear inducing bile and a disgraceful history of outright lies and yes they sympathised with the fecking Nazi's.

Who is preaching the mad arse propaganda?

The left surprise, surprise, lie and deny most things until the finally get caught out, migration anyone?

From Afghanistan you have to cross shed loads of countries to get to Greece and we didn't cause the problems in Syria, forgotten the Arab spring uprising? You know the one were shed loads of people from rural areas flooded into towns and cities, stirred up the shit and split the population and are now legging it off?

If as you claim that the bulk of migrants are economic; tell me why the vast majority are from countries at civil war? Coincidence?

You are an idiot if you think anyone coming through Turkey, a safe country, to travel to Greece and onwards ceases to be a refugee the minute they cross the border to Greece and become an economic migrant.

Again so what?
That's legal applications not wankers jumping out of trucks at motorway services.
Calm, peaceful, migrants who will contribute to our society, or lawless, stop at nothing thugs to get their own way, smashing down fences and threatening drivers?

For "Wankers" - see desperate human beings, willing to risk their lives to enter a safe haven. The reason they are trying to get into the UK is cos they speak some English. Just like the French speaking Africans are in France etc etc.
Loosen that fear clenched sphincter of yours, put down the Daily bile and have a bit of fecking compassion, pal.
Aye desperate to get into the UK to put more pressure on housing and infrastructure, not desperately escaping anything are they? Or do the French force feed them snails?

[Hoboh]

Was he? How many? Where?

He was. It isn't financially significant of course compared to tax evasion. But it is a thing. Go round several estates in Bolton and there are loads of kids whose parents have never had a job. The kids think this is the norm and are given low aspiration and the cycle continues.

The problem is that given that upbringing, they are uneducated with no skills, no work history and so cutting their (bare minimum) access to the basics of survival is more likely to force them turn to crime or become homeless than it is to get a job. The social cost (and financial) turns out to be much greater in the end. It's a false economy; all justified by the press vilyfying them as 'scroungers' when really they have just been brought up in the poverty cycle.

Ahh, chained to it are they, no escape? the type of parents involved should be sterilised or jailed for bringing their kids up like that after all it's abuse!

[BWFC_Insane]

Was he? How many? Where?

He was. It isn't financially significant of course compared to tax evasion. But it is a thing. Go round several estates in Bolton and there are loads of kids whose parents have never had a job. The kids think this is the norm and are given low aspiration and the cycle continues.

The problem is that given that upbringing, they are uneducated with no skills, no work history and so cutting their (bare minimum) access to the basics of survival is more likely to force them turn to crime or become homeless than it is to get a job. The social cost (and financial) turns out to be much greater in the end. It's a false economy; all justified by the press vilyfying them as 'scroungers' when really they have just been brought up in the poverty cycle.

I agree except the logical end of that argument is to do nothing about it which is what Blair and Thatcher basically tried and the problem grew and became more significant. Go into Bolton or Bury during the week, there are issues. And Labour will lose a lot of their core Northern support if they just plan to ignore it. Can you blame people who go to work for minimum wage being resentful when neighbours don't and are happy to take the benefits?

Somebody has to tackle it somehow. I don't think financially hurting the disabled and sick is the way forward. But neither is just pretending there isn't a social problem nor pretending that it isn't important.

[freeindeed]

So basically, Corbyn = Cameron on Europe then?

I think Cameron is strongly committed to the EU, but is trying to sound presidential and that he will be driving a hard bargain etc. Whilst really just trying to further reduce state spending on welfare.

Corbyn is strongly opposed to the blank face of capitalism driving the EU, that is imposing literally unpayable debt on European nation states and bringing societies to their kness. Greece now - who next?
He has not rules out a 'no' vote in a referendum.

[freeindeed]

Was he? How many? Where?

He was. It isn't financially significant of course compared to tax evasion. But it is a thing. Go round several estates in Bolton and there are loads of kids whose parents have never had a job. The kids think this is the norm and are given low aspiration and the cycle continues.

The problem is that given that upbringing, they are uneducated with no skills, no work history and so cutting their (bare minimum) access to the basics of survival is more likely to force them turn to crime or become homeless than it is to get a job. The social cost (and financial) turns out to be much greater in the end. It's a false economy; all justified by the press vilyfying them as 'scroungers' when really they have just been brought up in the poverty cycle.

Ahh, chained to it are they, no escape? the type of parents involved should be sterilised or jailed for bringing their kids up like that after all it's abuse!

Well yes breaking the chain is not so straigtforward, thats why...you know...it repeats down the generations. Abuse begets abuse. Poverty begets poverty. It can be broken, but the odds are it won't be.

Sterilising and jailing people for being trapped in poverty. You sound like a Nazi my friend.

[William the White]

Mrs de Blanc and myself registered as Labour supporters today.

We'll be voting for Jeremy.

Are you cancelling your subscription to the World Marxist Review as well?

I do have one to both New Left Review and London Review of Books.

These sometimes even get read.

The World Marxist Review has passed me by - a Canadian publication I suppose. Do you recommend?

[Hoboh]

Was he? How many? Where?

He was. It isn't financially significant of course compared to tax evasion. But it is a thing. Go round several estates in Bolton and there are loads of kids whose parents have never had a job. The kids think this is the norm and are given low aspiration and the cycle continues.

The problem is that given that upbringing, they are uneducated with no skills, no work history and so cutting their (bare minimum) access to the basics of survival is more likely to force them turn to crime or become homeless than it is to get a job. The social cost (and financial) turns out to be much greater in the end. It's a false economy; all justified by the press vilyfying them as 'scroungers' when really they have just been brought up in the poverty cycle.

Ahh, chained to it are they, no escape? the type of parents involved should be sterilised or jailed for bringing their kids up like that after all it's abuse!

Well yes breaking the chain is not so straigtforward, thats why...you know...it repeats down the generations. Abuse begets abuse. Poverty begets poverty. It can be broken, but the odds are it won't be.

Sterilising and jailing people for being trapped in poverty. You sound like a Nazi my friend.

Being trapped and just accepting and going with the flow whilst whinging about your lot all the time are two different things!
The real Nazi's are those who would impose their views on everyone, aka the pigs on the farm, or modern day bloody socialists trapped in a time warp.
There will never be no national collective brother!

[bobo the clown]

Mrs de Blanc and myself registered as Labour supporters today.

We'll be voting for Jeremy.

So will I, William. So will I.

[William the White]

Mrs de Blanc and myself registered as Labour supporters today.

We'll be voting for Jeremy.

So will I, William. So will I.

Bruce beat you to that one...

[freeindeed]

I agree except the logical end of that argument is to do nothing about it which is what Blair and Thatcher basically tried and the problem grew and became more significant. Go into Bolton or Bury during the week, there are issues. And Labour will lose a lot of their core Northern support if they just plan to ignore it. Can you blame people who go to work for minimum wage being resentful when neighbours don't and are happy to take the benefits?

Somebody has to tackle it somehow. I don't think financially hurting the disabled and sick is the way forward. But neither is just pretending there isn't a social problem nor pretending that it isn't important.

Why is the logical end to do nothing about it?

I do not think Thatcher did much to help those in poverty, and in particular systematically destroyed many working class communities. "There is no such thing as society" - Thatcher.

Change takes a long time and must be tackled on all fronts. Education, Health, Housing, An effective welfare state that incentivises work etc etc.

I don't blame people working hard for no benefit being pissed off. Welfare is an unfortunate necessity that we can afford. The cost relative to tax breaks for the rich/corporations is tiny and a political choice. Benefits should be adequate for survival, and the minimum wage should be raised to create the incentive. How is this achieved - workers rights/trade unions which the Tories are currently trying to bury alive.

There is a social problem that needs accepting and tackling. Even if some feel they are "cheating the system" and winning by scraping by on bare minimum benefits; in reality they are living in fecking poverty with a miserable existence.
The money tax payers pay to buy them food is just the tip of the iceberg in really addressing the problems at hand.

[Hoboh]

Mrs de Blanc and myself registered as Labour supporters today.

We'll be voting for Jeremy.

So will I, William. So will I.

Bruce beat you to that one...

I feel sorry for pru so I might vote Kendall to help him keep his pecker up
Then again I can think of better things to waste 3 quid on.

[bobo the clown]

Mrs de Blanc and myself registered as Labour supporters today.

We'll be voting for Jeremy.

So will I, William. So will I.

Bruce beat you to that one...

#2 son as well. The stories of infiltration seem to be holding water then.

[freeindeed]

The real Nazi's are those who would impose their views on everyone, aka the pigs on the farm, or modern day bloody socialists trapped in a time warp.
There will never be no national collective brother!

No, the real Nazi's are those who look outwards to blame difference (other) in the face of hardship or difficulty. The language we use is important. Cameron said "Swarm". You called them "ants". The Daily mail call them "Cockroaches". The Nazi's called the Jews "Vermin".

De-humanising is the first step towards arguing for their extermination; this is never as far away as you might think.

[thebish]

Oh, "loads"? I'm going to need something a bit more specific than that.

No one doubts some people are out to take the piss, we've all seen them on telly, but while it's galling, there comes a point where it costs more to go after the people gaming the system than you save by catching them. And that's without factoring in the social "cost" of people who are validly claiming being made to feel like lepers.

People keep talking about the "unaffordable" cost of welfare and "loads" of scroungers but I've never seen any numbers to support that. The only numbers I've actually seen are that 1% of 1% of the total welfare bill are most to fraudsters. The majority goes on pensions

I suspect you hardly know anyone on welfare nor have much experience of large council estates, there are still a significant number who take the pee.
Oh and I love the pension cop out as used countless times by those avoiding the point.

in that case it should be relatively straightforward to give us some actual statistics that show this.. no?

why not just show us the stats and end the argument?

[BWFC_Insane]

I agree except the logical end of that argument is to do nothing about it which is what Blair and Thatcher basically tried and the problem grew and became more significant. Go into Bolton or Bury during the week, there are issues. And Labour will lose a lot of their core Northern support if they just plan to ignore it. Can you blame people who go to work for minimum wage being resentful when neighbours don't and are happy to take the benefits?

Somebody has to tackle it somehow. I don't think financially hurting the disabled and sick is the way forward. But neither is just pretending there isn't a social problem nor pretending that it isn't important.

Why is the logical end to do nothing about it?

I do not think Thatcher did much to help those in poverty, and in particular systematically destroyed many working class communities. "There is no such thing as society" - Thatcher.

Change takes a long time and must be tackled on all fronts. Education, Health, Housing, An effective welfare state that incentivises work etc etc.

I don't blame people working hard for no benefit being pissed off. Welfare is an unfortunate necessity that we can afford. The cost relative to tax breaks for the rich/corporations is tiny and a political choice. Benefits should be adequate for survival, and the minimum wage should be raised to create the incentive. How is this achieved - workers rights/trade unions which the Tories are currently trying to bury alive.

There is a social problem that needs accepting and tackling. Even if some feel they are "cheating the system" and winning by scraping by on bare minimum benefits; in reality they are living in fecking poverty with a miserable existence.
The money tax payers pay to buy them food is just the tip of the iceberg in really addressing the problems at hand.

Thatcher created the problem mainly, by dumping many working communities on their arse and made them dependent on benefits. Blair and his government ignored it and consequently the problem began to get worse.

You are talking in very broad terms. What do you think needs doing particularly to solve the problem? Saying work needs to pay is easy to do, but very hard to achieve in reality. The problem is many people are actually worse off through going to work or at least marginally better off. And there is the rub. You can't just raise wages because every bit of evidence shows that actually suppresses low paid jobs and leads to less entry level jobs, which worsens the original problem....

[thebish]

I know plenty of people on welfare... most of them have a job - some of them have more than one job.

[BWFC_Insane]

I know plenty of people on welfare... most of them have a job - some of them have more than one job.

Here are some stats as you asked for.

http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/lmac/work ... ab-Summary" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Over 300,000 households where no adult has ever worked. That is higher than I thought to be honest.

3.3M households with nobody working in them. As I say it isn't the financial cost, it is the social problems this causes in many core traditional Labour areas....

[jaffka]

I know plenty of people on welfare... most of them have a job - some of them have more than one job.

Have they declared their additional earnings to the DWP?

[William the White]

I agree except the logical end of that argument is to do nothing about it which is what Blair and Thatcher basically tried and the problem grew and became more significant. Go into Bolton or Bury during the week, there are issues. And Labour will lose a lot of their core Northern support if they just plan to ignore it. Can you blame people who go to work for minimum wage being resentful when neighbours don't and are happy to take the benefits?

Somebody has to tackle it somehow. I don't think financially hurting the disabled and sick is the way forward. But neither is just pretending there isn't a social problem nor pretending that it isn't important.

Why is the logical end to do nothing about it?

I do not think Thatcher did much to help those in poverty, and in particular systematically destroyed many working class communities. "There is no such thing as society" - Thatcher.

Change takes a long time and must be tackled on all fronts. Education, Health, Housing, An effective welfare state that incentivises work etc etc.

I don't blame people working hard for no benefit being pissed off. Welfare is an unfortunate necessity that we can afford. The cost relative to tax breaks for the rich/corporations is tiny and a political choice. Benefits should be adequate for survival, and the minimum wage should be raised to create the incentive. How is this achieved - workers rights/trade unions which the Tories are currently trying to bury alive.

There is a social problem that needs accepting and tackling. Even if some feel they are "cheating the system" and winning by scraping by on bare minimum benefits; in reality they are living in fecking poverty with a miserable existence.
The money tax payers pay to buy them food is just the tip of the iceberg in really addressing the problems at hand.

Thatcher created the problem mainly, by dumping many working communities on their arse and made them dependent on benefits. Blair and his government ignored it and consequently the problem began to get worse.

You are talking in very broad terms. What do you think needs doing particularly to solve the problem? Saying work needs to pay is easy to do, but very hard to achieve in reality. The problem is many people are actually worse off through going to work or at least marginally better off. And there is the rub. You can't just raise wages because every bit of evidence shows that actually suppresses low paid jobs and leads to less entry level jobs, which worsens the original problem....

Where is the evidence for that? I'm curious, could you post an authoritative link?