The Politics Thread

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Who will you be voting for?

Labour
12
40%
Conservatives
11
37%
Liberal Democrats
2
7%
UK Independence Party (UKIP)
0
No votes
Green Party
3
10%
Plaid Cymru
0
No votes
Other
1
3%
Planet Hobo
1
3%
 
Total votes: 30

Gary the Enfield
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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by Gary the Enfield » Thu Nov 05, 2020 10:20 am

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Wed Nov 04, 2020 9:32 pm
Been watching the shenanigans in the USA this evening. Trump sending thugs into counts to try and stop them. Proclaiming victory in Penn when the truth is it’s very much too close to call. Trying to go to court to get votes thrown out.

What’s the difference between this and how the Nazis took control?
Yup. Graceless in victory and defeat. Man's a cvnt.

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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by Worthy4England » Fri Nov 06, 2020 8:51 am

I think Trump is only one part of the problem. You can get rid of Trump (possibly), but much more difficult to change the mindset of the 70m people who voted for him who believe they're being cheated by the state.

They'll probably find some inconsistencies v law, and in an election this size almost certainly some fraud. I'd be quite surprised if they didn't, I'd also be quite surprised if it was only one side. But they're conjuring up demons.

All the QAnon / conspiracy theory stuff isn't going away because Trump does...and the country is split pretty much 50/50 but the notion of consensus has left the building.

US is currently fcuked whatever the result. We're hanging off its coat tails.

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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by Bruce Rioja » Fri Nov 06, 2020 12:24 pm

I agree with Trump - Let's stop the count. As it stands that means he'll lose by 253 to 214 :)
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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by BWFC_Insane » Fri Nov 06, 2020 6:30 pm

Worthy4England wrote:
Fri Nov 06, 2020 8:51 am
I think Trump is only one part of the problem. You can get rid of Trump (possibly), but much more difficult to change the mindset of the 70m people who voted for him who believe they're being cheated by the state.

They'll probably find some inconsistencies v law, and in an election this size almost certainly some fraud. I'd be quite surprised if they didn't, I'd also be quite surprised if it was only one side. But they're conjuring up demons.

All the QAnon / conspiracy theory stuff isn't going away because Trump does...and the country is split pretty much 50/50 but the notion of consensus has left the building.

US is currently fcuked whatever the result. We're hanging off its coat tails.
All of this is completely true. The real problem in my view is the internet and social medial. People live in these incessant bubbles being fed nonsense by people just like them any they have no ability to filter or realise that their existence is feeding their own confirmation bias. And we see the exact same here and I’d argue we are on the very same path. Large groups of people who genuinely believe that COVID is a hoax...or just designed by government to suppress us all...and you could waste your breath for hours but they fervently believe the nonsense and share warped and distorted information with each other to try and reinforce their point. Because they are essentially seeing this stuff all the time it’s impossible to break through with actual facts and balance.

You see it constantly and it’s a huge danger.

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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by Montreal Wanderer » Fri Nov 06, 2020 10:22 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Wed Nov 04, 2020 9:32 pm
Been watching the shenanigans in the USA this evening. Trump sending thugs into counts to try and stop them. Proclaiming victory in Penn when the truth is it’s very much too close to call. Trying to go to court to get votes thrown out.

What’s the difference between this and how the Nazis took control?
Quite a significant difference I would say. I have not heard of thugs entering the counting places to stop the count - if they did State Troopers would intervene. I have heard of Republicans demanding better access for their observers (who are legal), but I doubt the claim has validity as access appears to be granted everywhere. They also have the right to go to court if they can prove votes are illegally collected. As for Trump proclaiming victory - well we are used to his less than factual claims about any (and just about every) subject. However, America operates under a Constitution and the rule of law (even with a packed Supreme Court). Not even Trump can set these things aside. It is worth noting that Trump received the second highest vote count ever in a Presidential election - Alas for him Biden has the highest ever count.

The Nazis gained a majority in the Reichstag by outlawing the Communist Party following a questionable bit of arson. That seems quite unlikely in the US. Personally I dislike everything about Trump, but I don't agree with the comparison with Nazi Germany. If I recall correctly Godwin's Law is the proposition that the longer an internet argument goes on, the higher the probability becomes that something or someone will be compared to Adolf Hitler. I guess we have reached that point.
"If you cannot answer a man's argument, all it not lost; you can still call him vile names. " Elbert Hubbard.

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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by Montreal Wanderer » Fri Nov 06, 2020 10:37 pm

Worthy4England wrote:
Fri Nov 06, 2020 8:51 am
I think Trump is only one part of the problem. You can get rid of Trump (possibly), but much more difficult to change the mindset of the 70m people who voted for him who believe they're being cheated by the state.

They'll probably find some inconsistencies v law, and in an election this size almost certainly some fraud. I'd be quite surprised if they didn't, I'd also be quite surprised if it was only one side. But they're conjuring up demons.

All the QAnon / conspiracy theory stuff isn't going away because Trump does...and the country is split pretty much 50/50 but the notion of consensus has left the building.

US is currently fcuked whatever the result. We're hanging off its coat tails.
There is some truth here, but only a small minority of the 70 million who voted for him think the pandemic is a hoax or that the democratic leadership are paedophile cannibalistic Satan worshipping white slavers. There are reasonable arguments in favour of Republican values as there are for Democrat ones. Many could not vote for Biden's platform. It is interesting to note that Republican Senate and House candidates did proportionally slightly better in the vote than Trump did for President. That is some people continued to vote the Republican ticket but, like Carol McCain who won Arizona for Biden, could not vote for him as President.

Biden's greatest challenge (even more than the pandemic response) will be to restore some unity in a deeply divided nation.
"If you cannot answer a man's argument, all it not lost; you can still call him vile names. " Elbert Hubbard.

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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by boltonpepper » Sun Nov 08, 2020 6:01 am

Glad we’ve got rid of that Trump clown.

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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by boltonpepper » Sun Nov 08, 2020 6:03 am

Currently at the White House: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=r3ZEFM7_Itk

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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by LeverEnd » Sun Nov 08, 2020 11:02 am

Montreal Wanderer wrote:
Fri Nov 06, 2020 10:22 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Wed Nov 04, 2020 9:32 pm
Been watching the shenanigans in the USA this evening. Trump sending thugs into counts to try and stop them. Proclaiming victory in Penn when the truth is it’s very much too close to call. Trying to go to court to get votes thrown out.

What’s the difference between this and how the Nazis took control?
Quite a significant difference I would say. I have not heard of thugs entering the counting places to stop the count - if they did State Troopers would intervene. I have heard of Republicans demanding better access for their observers (who are legal), but I doubt the claim has validity as access appears to be granted everywhere. They also have the right to go to court if they can prove votes are illegally collected. As for Trump proclaiming victory - well we are used to his less than factual claims about any (and just about every) subject. However, America operates under a Constitution and the rule of law (even with a packed Supreme Court). Not even Trump can set these things aside. It is worth noting that Trump received the second highest vote count ever in a Presidential election - Alas for him Biden has the highest ever count.

The Nazis gained a majority in the Reichstag by outlawing the Communist Party following a questionable bit of arson. That seems quite unlikely in the US. Personally I dislike everything about Trump, but I don't agree with the comparison with Nazi Germany. If I recall correctly Godwin's Law is the proposition that the longer an internet argument goes on, the higher the probability becomes that something or someone will be compared to Adolf Hitler. I guess we have reached that point.
I think the difference between what's happening in the us election and Germany in the 30s is that the the US is a stable democracy with checks and balances that will stop Trump doing what he wants, as you rightly point out.
However I don't think it's hyperbolic to compare the two men personally. I am absolutely convinced that given the leeway, Trump would commit atrocities, he just won't get the opportunity.
When I was younger I studied Germany in detail (I have a a degree in German) and could never understand how Nazi Germany was allowed to happen, and convinced that modern generations were different in some way. I look at the Trump family and their supporters now and can see how naive I was.
...

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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by BWFC_Insane » Sun Nov 08, 2020 3:07 pm

LeverEnd wrote:
Sun Nov 08, 2020 11:02 am
Montreal Wanderer wrote:
Fri Nov 06, 2020 10:22 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Wed Nov 04, 2020 9:32 pm
Been watching the shenanigans in the USA this evening. Trump sending thugs into counts to try and stop them. Proclaiming victory in Penn when the truth is it’s very much too close to call. Trying to go to court to get votes thrown out.

What’s the difference between this and how the Nazis took control?
Quite a significant difference I would say. I have not heard of thugs entering the counting places to stop the count - if they did State Troopers would intervene. I have heard of Republicans demanding better access for their observers (who are legal), but I doubt the claim has validity as access appears to be granted everywhere. They also have the right to go to court if they can prove votes are illegally collected. As for Trump proclaiming victory - well we are used to his less than factual claims about any (and just about every) subject. However, America operates under a Constitution and the rule of law (even with a packed Supreme Court). Not even Trump can set these things aside. It is worth noting that Trump received the second highest vote count ever in a Presidential election - Alas for him Biden has the highest ever count.

The Nazis gained a majority in the Reichstag by outlawing the Communist Party following a questionable bit of arson. That seems quite unlikely in the US. Personally I dislike everything about Trump, but I don't agree with the comparison with Nazi Germany. If I recall correctly Godwin's Law is the proposition that the longer an internet argument goes on, the higher the probability becomes that something or someone will be compared to Adolf Hitler. I guess we have reached that point.
I think the difference between what's happening in the us election and Germany in the 30s is that the the US is a stable democracy with checks and balances that will stop Trump doing what he wants, as you rightly point out.
However I don't think it's hyperbolic to compare the two men personally. I am absolutely convinced that given the leeway, Trump would commit atrocities, he just won't get the opportunity.
When I was younger I studied Germany in detail (I have a a degree in German) and could never understand how Nazi Germany was allowed to happen, and convinced that modern generations were different in some way. I look at the Trump family and their supporters now and can see how naive I was.
Yep, well articulated. The thing is that it’s not that Trump is openly able to do a lot of the things the Nazis did but for example, he’s tried to push voter suppression, tried to label all the media as liars and now one of his allies has rocked up with claims the election is stolen and it’s a Jewish conspiracy...

You start to look and the more you look the more it’s just.....hmmm....these people deep down will do and say absolutely anything they think they can get away with.

I don’t even think Trump would commit atrocities unless he thought there was an advantage for him personally I don’t think he’s motivated by race hate he just uses it in others to his advantage. But it’s still absolutely been an authoritarian regime in a supposed democracy that has taken a lot of cues from other authoritarian regimes in history.

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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by malcd1 » Sun Nov 08, 2020 3:56 pm

Joe Biden is going to be the oldest President ever. Only Reagan was a similar age but that was after his second term. I personally think he may not finish his full term meaning they could have their first female President.

The fact that Biden has only just beaten Trump by the skin of his teeth says a lot about the Democratic party at the moment. I doubt very much that he will bring the country back together. Like in the UK, there is a lot of hatred in society and a complete disregard for anyone else's opinion.
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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by Worthy4England » Sun Nov 08, 2020 4:52 pm

malcd1 wrote:
Sun Nov 08, 2020 3:56 pm
Joe Biden is going to be the oldest President ever. Only Reagan was a similar age but that was after his second term. I personally think he may not finish his full term meaning they could have their first female President.

The fact that Biden has only just beaten Trump by the skin of his teeth says a lot about the Democratic party at the moment. I doubt very much that he will bring the country back together. Like in the UK, there is a lot of hatred in society and a complete disregard for anyone else's opinion.
Aye, don't see it all being happy families.

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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by Montreal Wanderer » Sun Nov 08, 2020 8:23 pm

malcd1 wrote:
Sun Nov 08, 2020 3:56 pm
Joe Biden is going to be the oldest President ever. Only Reagan was a similar age but that was after his second term. I personally think he may not finish his full term meaning they could have their first female President.

The fact that Biden has only just beaten Trump by the skin of his teeth says a lot about the Democratic party at the moment. I doubt very much that he will bring the country back together. Like in the UK, there is a lot of hatred in society and a complete disregard for anyone else's opinion.
He may have won narrowly (daft Electoral College system) but he received more votes that any other presidential candidate in history and four million more than Trump. Of course Trump got the second most votes ever, showing how divided the country is. Most Republicans were not motivated by support for Trump but fear of tax increases and a possible shut down over Covid concerns. This was shown by Republican candidates outperforming Trump. There is a fear of the left-wing of the Democratic Party, which has its own agenda on a number of issues from the climate crisis through gun control to medical care. Biden had to tread a fine line to keep his coalition together, but has a tough road ahead - tougher than anyone since at least FDR.
"If you cannot answer a man's argument, all it not lost; you can still call him vile names. " Elbert Hubbard.

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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by BWFC_Insane » Wed Nov 11, 2020 3:52 pm

malcd1 wrote:
Sun Nov 08, 2020 3:56 pm
Joe Biden is going to be the oldest President ever. Only Reagan was a similar age but that was after his second term. I personally think he may not finish his full term meaning they could have their first female President.

The fact that Biden has only just beaten Trump by the skin of his teeth says a lot about the Democratic party at the moment. I doubt very much that he will bring the country back together. Like in the UK, there is a lot of hatred in society and a complete disregard for anyone else's opinion.
Do you think? I think it was a huge longshot for anyone to beat Trump given the advantages Trump stacked in his favour - and therefore I think its a hugely impressive feat to win 306 electoral college votes given the circumstances and win by a fair margin in states he wasn't expected to come close in like Georgia...we're talking 10 thousand not a few hundred circa Florida 2000....

I personally think it was a huge testament to Joe Biden that he managed to lead a Democrat party that are definitely not as cohesive as you'd like and win and hold them together in the face of adversity.

Trump being a fascist means it was so important he was beaten though now he may find a way to hold power through nefarious means - I'd hope that the 75M who voted against him will simply not accept that and rise up.

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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by Hoboh » Sat Jan 02, 2021 8:01 am

Really is about time that bloody Hancock got removed, the man's seriously deranged. First we would have a couple of million vaccinated by the new year, then it was two million a week but hang on we only have five hundred and odd thousand doses, now we are going to skip the follow up jab because we will be short due to non-existent manufacturing problems and need to use it sparingly!! After his early fiasco with the testing and his false figures the bloke should be toast. The bloke is so aggravating if he was behind me I'd skip looking in the mirror and turn off all the sensors when reversing!

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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by BWFC_Insane » Mon Jan 04, 2021 10:49 am

Hoboh wrote:
Sat Jan 02, 2021 8:01 am
Really is about time that bloody Hancock got removed, the man's seriously deranged. First we would have a couple of million vaccinated by the new year, then it was two million a week but hang on we only have five hundred and odd thousand doses, now we are going to skip the follow up jab because we will be short due to non-existent manufacturing problems and need to use it sparingly!! After his early fiasco with the testing and his false figures the bloke should be toast. The bloke is so aggravating if he was behind me I'd skip looking in the mirror and turn off all the sensors when reversing!
I mean he's utterly useless but I'd probably in fairness defend him a little in that there is only so much he can do re vaccine availability. It was always going to be very difficult. I will say though that given they've been banging on about a great plan for vaccine rollout since bloody April its a bit embarrassing we don't have enough vials...

On the other and more worrying hand - the vaccine may not even work given the likelihood is it won't be very effective against the new South African strain which is even more virulent than the super strain we've managed to form and has enough changes in the spike protein to mean the vaccine may not work against it - oh and we've managed to import it over here already.....because we've kept allowing people into the country without enforced isolation periods and tests....

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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by Worthy4England » Mon Jan 04, 2021 6:20 pm

I thought the current consensus was that there was a likelihood the vaccine would work against the new strains (rather than it wouldn't). Sure, I get that it's not been tested against the new variants, but still thought they were generally hopeful? What's leading you to the likelihood that it won't work conclusion?

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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by BWFC_Insane » Tue Jan 05, 2021 3:36 pm

Worthy4England wrote:
Mon Jan 04, 2021 6:20 pm
I thought the current consensus was that there was a likelihood the vaccine would work against the new strains (rather than it wouldn't). Sure, I get that it's not been tested against the new variants, but still thought they were generally hopeful? What's leading you to the likelihood that it won't work conclusion?
The new UK variant they expect it to work against. The South African variant they have considerable doubts on...

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/0 ... -worrying/

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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by Worthy4England » Tue Jan 05, 2021 3:59 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Tue Jan 05, 2021 3:36 pm
Worthy4England wrote:
Mon Jan 04, 2021 6:20 pm
I thought the current consensus was that there was a likelihood the vaccine would work against the new strains (rather than it wouldn't). Sure, I get that it's not been tested against the new variants, but still thought they were generally hopeful? What's leading you to the likelihood that it won't work conclusion?
The new UK variant they expect it to work against. The South African variant they have considerable doubts on...

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/0 ... -worrying/
Paywalled - so can't see - will take your word for it! :-)

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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by Prufrock » Tue Jan 05, 2021 5:54 pm

Good job we took control of our borders back really. Imagine that must be pretty handy rn to shut them down and keep this South African edition out.
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