The Politics Thread

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Who will you be voting for?

Labour
13
41%
Conservatives
12
38%
Liberal Democrats
2
6%
UK Independence Party (UKIP)
0
No votes
Green Party
3
9%
Plaid Cymru
0
No votes
Other
1
3%
Planet Hobo
1
3%
 
Total votes: 32

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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by Bruce Rioja » Wed Sep 15, 2021 11:07 pm

I see that in today's cabinet reshuffle, there's been no mention of current Paymaster General, Penny Mordaunt.

All political preferences etc. aside, I'm baffled as to why she never gets installed into a senior Tory cabinet position.

And, when she has previously, she tends to last no more than a couple of months.

Ruffles too many feathers perhaps? Is Boris (and/or his gang of favourites) even scared of her? Dunno.
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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by BWFC_Insane » Thu Sep 16, 2021 8:34 am

Bruce Rioja wrote:
Wed Sep 15, 2021 11:07 pm
I see that in today's cabinet reshuffle, there's been no mention of current Paymaster General, Penny Mordaunt.

All political preferences etc. aside, I'm baffled as to why she never gets installed into a senior Tory cabinet position.

And, when she has previously, she tends to last no more than a couple of months.

Ruffles too many feathers perhaps? Is Boris (and/or his gang of favourites) even scared of her? Dunno.
She's not my cup of tea at all but isn't the story that she and Boris fell out when she stuck with May as Boris walked out? Or sommat like that.

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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by Bruce Rioja » Thu Sep 16, 2021 9:34 am

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Thu Sep 16, 2021 8:34 am
Bruce Rioja wrote:
Wed Sep 15, 2021 11:07 pm
I see that in today's cabinet reshuffle, there's been no mention of current Paymaster General, Penny Mordaunt.

All political preferences etc. aside, I'm baffled as to why she never gets installed into a senior Tory cabinet position.

And, when she has previously, she tends to last no more than a couple of months.

Ruffles too many feathers perhaps? Is Boris (and/or his gang of favourites) even scared of her? Dunno.
She's not my cup of tea at all but isn't the story that she and Boris fell out when she stuck with May as Boris walked out? Or sommat like that.
See what you mean, but I love her calm deliveries. Just read this; 'Penny Mordaunt left her post as paymaster general at the Cabinet Office to become a minister at the trade department'. Now, I don't know for sure, but isn't that something of a demotion?
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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by BWFC_Insane » Thu Sep 16, 2021 10:42 am

Bruce Rioja wrote:
Thu Sep 16, 2021 9:34 am
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Thu Sep 16, 2021 8:34 am
Bruce Rioja wrote:
Wed Sep 15, 2021 11:07 pm
I see that in today's cabinet reshuffle, there's been no mention of current Paymaster General, Penny Mordaunt.

All political preferences etc. aside, I'm baffled as to why she never gets installed into a senior Tory cabinet position.

And, when she has previously, she tends to last no more than a couple of months.

Ruffles too many feathers perhaps? Is Boris (and/or his gang of favourites) even scared of her? Dunno.
She's not my cup of tea at all but isn't the story that she and Boris fell out when she stuck with May as Boris walked out? Or sommat like that.
See what you mean, but I love her calm deliveries. Just read this; 'Penny Mordaunt left her post as paymaster general at the Cabinet Office to become a minister at the trade department'. Now, I don't know for sure, but isn't that something of a demotion?
It is but like I say she won't get a top job as she was in the Brexit gang but stuck by Theresa May when other Brexit gang members like Boris and Raab walked out. She was I think considered one of the more hardline Brexiteers and is suffering now for not staying in the hardline Brexit gang - or at least that seems to be the consensus.

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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by BWFC_Insane » Mon Sep 20, 2021 1:03 pm

So we now have another example of why the privatisation of services is often not a good thing. As a country we are likely to be forced to bail out or step in to run many energy supply companies in the next few weeks where they haven't bought their supply far enough in advance for what is in effect with the cap a generally loss making business.

This will be incredibly expensive for the tax payer but likely we'll have no choice as letting all these suppliers go to the wall or just shutting up shop will of course be economically disastrous. So once again the taxpayer foots the bill and bails the industry out.

Wonder if Keir will arise from his slumber and explain to the country how the Tories profligate spending and lack of regulation has bankrupted us? Probably not but it worked in 2010.....

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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by Bruce Rioja » Tue Sep 21, 2021 9:15 am

^^^

Quite a bit to unpack.

The government isn't bailing anyone out
Privatisation's not a good thing? Did you sleep through the power cuts of the 70's? Yeay, let's have the unions running the show again.
I'm happy to believe that the lights won't be going out.
The tax payer isn't footing the bill - though we all will in the end, in line with what we use.
The government have no control over the wholesale market price.
Had the government over-committed and the price gone down, you'd be slating them for that, it's what you do. Perhaps best you don't criticise on 'judging the markets' before someone plays the 'Brown's gold' card.
I guess also that in your eyes the mean old Tories are responsible for the lack of wind? ;)

And personally, I have as much faith in the Easter Bunny as I ever could have in Kier and his Cheadle Heath Chav in their ability to sort anything out, ever. Now, when Lisa Nandy or Emily Thornberry start running affairs on that side of the house, I think that'll make for a far more interesting proposition/debate.

Oh, my supplier (People's Energy) have gone to the wall and I've been transferred to British Gas, so I'll be able to post more accurately regarding the exact ramifications when I know more.
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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by BWFC_Insane » Tue Sep 21, 2021 9:41 am

Bruce Rioja wrote:
Tue Sep 21, 2021 9:15 am
^^^

Quite a bit to unpack.

The government isn't bailing anyone out
Privatisation's not a good thing? Did you sleep through the power cuts of the 70's? Yeay, let's have the unions running the show again.
I'm happy to believe that the lights won't be going out.
The tax payer isn't footing the bill - though we all will in the end, in line with what we use.
The government have no control over the wholesale market price.
Had the government over-committed and the price gone down, you'd be slating them for that, it's what you do. Perhaps best you don't criticise on 'judging the markets' before someone plays the 'Brown's gold' card.
I guess also that in your eyes the mean old Tories are responsible for the lack of wind? ;)

And personally, I have as much faith in the Easter Bunny as I ever could have in Kier and his Cheadle Heath Chav in their ability to sort anything out, ever. Now, when Lisa Nandy or Emily Thornberry start running affairs on that side of the house, I think that'll make for a far more interesting proposition/debate.

Oh, my supplier (People's Energy) have gone to the wall and I've been transferred to British Gas, so I'll be able to post more accurately regarding the exact ramifications when I know more.
The government yesterday promised a few things that will all likely have very significant drain on the 'public purse'. Supplier of last resort if needed - which means effectively the government stepping in and running companies with public money if necessary. A retention of the price cap which means that either companies will go to the wall and require bail out or customers will be transferred as you were which will hugely increase the subsidy we already pay.

Its a privatised industry that supplies an essential service yet as it stands - the only way it survives is because of government subsidy. We're paying the keep our bills down whilst ensuring these companies can just about (in some cases) make a profit - when the going is good. Yet when you have a crisis like this you end up one way or another pouring public money into it because - well we have no choice.

The private sector is good for many many things but running essential services in my mind is not one of them other than in very very downhill periods. Its not an industry where we can say 'lets let the wheat and chaff separate and apply free market rules'' because we need it. So like banking when it goes wrong the government has to step in. The old 'look at the 70's' thing is the obvious counter but if you take trains - the performance under British Rail by most metrics that matter to the customer, price, efficiency, conditions etc were far better than they have been since privatisation. Its a model that doesn't work well under the constraint of 'you have to deliver this no matter what' because the Private Sector is built on delivering against their own performance targets. Not against those set for them.

Assuming they keep prices down as promised and don't let anyone go without supply as promised that's likely a huge bill. Of course its the right thing to do. And my point was that the government now are as much as fault for the energy crisis as Gordon Brown was for the global banking crisis. Yet we all know how one was blamed.

I have a genuine question for you - I assume you voted for Cameron and the austerity plan. And presumably because you agreed with it. And Cameron was an economically conservative leader yet socially very progressive. You now have in Johnson spending that exceeds even the most wild amounts that Corbyn promised - and a seemingly endless desire to keep spending money regardless - and absolutely no indication or suggestion of fiscal restraint. Yet a government who are socially much much more regressive than any we've had. How can you support both iterations considering they are seemingly completely at odds with each other?

I couldn't support Corbyn's nonsense and was comfortable with that. But I find it impossible to reconcile any voter who could have crossed the box for Cameron's Tories crossing the box for Johnson's? Its like saying Cameron got everything wrong and everything he stood for was wrong.....

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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by Worthy4England » Tue Sep 21, 2021 10:53 am

Bruce Rioja wrote:
Tue Sep 21, 2021 9:15 am
Privatisation's not a good thing? Did you sleep through the power cuts of the 70's?
Yes - much less light pollution! :-)

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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by Bruce Rioja » Tue Sep 21, 2021 12:02 pm

Worthy4England wrote:
Tue Sep 21, 2021 10:53 am
Bruce Rioja wrote:
Tue Sep 21, 2021 9:15 am
Privatisation's not a good thing? Did you sleep through the power cuts of the 70's?
Yes - much less light pollution! :-)
People light their houses with candles nowadays so as to add a touch of luxurious ambience. We lit them just to go for a piss FFS! :D

I must say, it wasn't all doom and gloom, as anyone else who was 'forced' to live on hot buttered toast cooked over the embers of a coal fire will doubtlessly attest.

Similarly, when there was a bakers strike in 77, everyone's mother had to bake bread at home. I remember wishing that they'd close Warby's down permanently as a result :D

BWFC-I, I think it shows overall what a shit state we're actually in when given the options we'd actually prefer not to vote. I happily voted for Cameron as I think we needed a 'level' of austerity at that time (notwithstanding that by the metric used we'd actually come out of recession, before you mention it ;) ).
I always swore that I could never vote for Johnson and only did as a means of keeping Corbyn out, not out of support.

Thing is, it's in all our interests for any government to face a strong opposition; something I'm sure we can agree is totally lacking at the moment.
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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by Worthy4England » Tue Sep 21, 2021 12:58 pm

It's alright for those whose mothers could beak bread. My ma, bless her, managed a product that could've been used in warfare as a really top notch shield. :-)

It's interesting Brucie, the dilemma around voting. I didn't vote for either of the main parties as I generally thought they were both pi$$ poor. But of course, I felt obliged to vote. For shits and giggles I did one of those "which policies do you admire and would vote for" things - it returned 2 policies from each of around 5 parties....which suggests to me, someone going to have to work a lot harder, to get my vote.

As for the opposition, you might as well not bother against a majority of 80, whoever you are. I've long advocated proportional representation as the current system really makes you vote for one of two parties if you want your vote to count and still comes up with non-proportional landslides (either way).

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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by BWFC_Insane » Tue Sep 21, 2021 1:19 pm

Bruce Rioja wrote:
Tue Sep 21, 2021 12:02 pm
Worthy4England wrote:
Tue Sep 21, 2021 10:53 am
Bruce Rioja wrote:
Tue Sep 21, 2021 9:15 am
Privatisation's not a good thing? Did you sleep through the power cuts of the 70's?
Yes - much less light pollution! :-)
People light their houses with candles nowadays so as to add a touch of luxurious ambience. We lit them just to go for a piss FFS! :D

I must say, it wasn't all doom and gloom, as anyone else who was 'forced' to live on hot buttered toast cooked over the embers of a coal fire will doubtlessly attest.

Similarly, when there was a bakers strike in 77, everyone's mother had to bake bread at home. I remember wishing that they'd close Warby's down permanently as a result :D

BWFC-I, I think it shows overall what a shit state we're actually in when given the options we'd actually prefer not to vote. I happily voted for Cameron as I think we needed a 'level' of austerity at that time (notwithstanding that by the metric used we'd actually come out of recession, before you mention it ;) ).
I always swore that I could never vote for Johnson and only did as a means of keeping Corbyn out, not out of support.

Thing is, it's in all our interests for any government to face a strong opposition; something I'm sure we can agree is totally lacking at the moment.
See for me I'd say that Starmer is not exactly an electric person nor is he particularly good at opposition. But I don't think there is any contest between who I'd rather have running the country. You've got Boris systematcially stripping the courts of power, building a more and more authoritarian state (the very idea that an elected leader is the 'absolute power' is on many levels wrong and not something we've seen across Western Europe since well....I'm in danger of invoking some law that annoys people here). He also has an appalling track record especially when examining his honesty and then we see this government siphoning off money to their mates. I look at our "debt" which is now obscene and the fact that it will just grow and grow and worry that frankly we won't see much benefit. They have a taskforce to 'save Christmas' now as the supply lines threatened by Brexit (admittedly other factors too but primarily a Brexit drive labour shortage) that they spent years telling us was just 'project fear'.

Starmer has a super track record by comparison. Do I think he's a good opposition leader? No. I think he's fallen into the classic trap of thinking that keeping your head down and staying out of the headlines is the best way but he's missed that this was a period we needed a good opposition. Its frustrating. Are many in the Labour party awful? Yes. But for me (admittedly this isn't happening so my wish is irrelevant) there is a no brainer choice. An adult who has real experience and is not going to strip our democracy down to the bone and will at least try and run government in a less cronyistic manner. Its not inspiring. But frankly I've had enough of personality right now.

I'd far prefer stronger and bolder Labour leadership and a more inspiring one but the names you mention send a shudder down my spine and I suspect would fair a lot worse than Keir is. The Labour party is a mess. I fully agree and accept that. But the Tory party is far worse and far more dangerous. The fact they have 'Lee Anderson' MP says all I need to know about it.

The ironic thing is were this Starmer vs the Cameron/Osborne Tory party I'd be saying the opposite that although I disagreed with their economic policy - that they were a better bet. And as you say this just highlights what a fecking mess this is. But I honestly think we've got the worst possible Trumpesque government right now and we're probably stuck with them for a decade if not longer.

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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by TANGODANCER » Tue Sep 21, 2021 1:57 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Tue Sep 21, 2021 1:19 pm

They have a taskforce to 'save Christmas' now as the supply lines threatened by Brexit (admittedly other factors too but primarily a Brexit drive labour shortage) that they spent years telling us was just 'project fear'.
As a "know nowt about politics" buff, I was wondering which particular Christmas you refer to as the government saver: The birth of Christ, go to Church, ring the bells, sing carols etc...version, or the "Spend, spend, spend, make the rich richer and to xxxx with the consequences" one. Just wondering mind... :lol:
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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by BWFC_Insane » Tue Sep 21, 2021 2:15 pm

TANGODANCER wrote:
Tue Sep 21, 2021 1:57 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Tue Sep 21, 2021 1:19 pm

They have a taskforce to 'save Christmas' now as the supply lines threatened by Brexit (admittedly other factors too but primarily a Brexit drive labour shortage) that they spent years telling us was just 'project fear'.
As a "know nowt about politics" buff, I was wondering which particular Christmas you refer to as the government saver: The birth of Christ, go to Church, ring the bells, sing carols etc...version, or the "Spend, spend, spend, make the rich richer and to xxxx with the consequences" one. Just wondering mind... :lol:
I'm afraid as a non religious person its hard to answer that....

Probably the latter - making sure people have Turkeys I think is what it amounts to. But personally I'd pass on that anyway.

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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by Prufrock » Tue Sep 21, 2021 2:19 pm

Probably the one where people get to spend time enjoying themselves with their family. The one that got cancelled at 3 (?) days' notice last year.

Some people spend that time going to church and celebrating the birth of Jesus, which is nice for them. Others don't have still have a lovely important time anyway, which is nice for them too.
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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by BWFC_Insane » Tue Sep 21, 2021 2:23 pm

Prufrock wrote:
Tue Sep 21, 2021 2:19 pm
Probably the one where people get to spend time enjoying themselves with their family. The one that got cancelled at 3 (?) days' notice last year.

Some people spend that time going to church and celebrating the birth of Jesus, which is nice for them. Others don't have still have a lovely important time anyway, which is nice for them too.
This is fair. And a lot of people of other religions celebrate too - not Christmas per se but just family time - seeing as everything is shut.

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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by BWFC_Insane » Tue Sep 21, 2021 2:35 pm

James O Brien is of course horribly smug and middle class and all the things he can be accused of. But he's one of the few if only people who voices exactly how I feel about the situation. Even if he blames himself for voting for Boris as mayor of London I do think he manages to simplify it down.

https://twitter.com/LBC/status/1440291728343269379?s=20

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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by LeverEnd » Tue Sep 21, 2021 3:11 pm

The fact they have 'Lee Anderson' MP says all I need to know about it.
Was finding this discussion interesting but now started smirking at the mental image of a geezer with greasy hair and a tracksuit getting the guitar out at the end of PMQs, David Brent style.
...

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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by BWFC_Insane » Tue Sep 21, 2021 3:19 pm

LeverEnd wrote:
Tue Sep 21, 2021 3:11 pm
The fact they have 'Lee Anderson' MP says all I need to know about it.
Was finding this discussion interesting but now started smirking at the mental image of a geezer with greasy hair and a tracksuit getting the guitar out at the end of PMQs, David Brent style.
That Lee Anderson would be a step up on actual Lee Anderson MP.

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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by TANGODANCER » Tue Sep 21, 2021 4:24 pm

Prufrock wrote:
Tue Sep 21, 2021 2:19 pm
Probably the one where people get to spend time enjoying themselves with their family. The one that got cancelled at 3 (?) days' notice last year.

Some people spend that time going to church and celebrating the birth of Jesus, which is nice for them. Others don't have still have a lovely important time anyway, which is nice for them too.
All fine and no argument (To my shame, I haven't been to church in years,- last time was Midnight Mass in Spain - preferring to deal with Head Office from home) and I wasn't particularly bringing religion into it although that's what the feast of Christmas is about, but rather who is saving Christmas and from what? . I don't really expect a sensible answer if the government are involved. Boris in a Santa Claus outfit with his little helpers would be just a jump too far.. :D
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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by BWFC_Insane » Tue Sep 21, 2021 4:28 pm

TANGODANCER wrote:
Tue Sep 21, 2021 4:24 pm
Prufrock wrote:
Tue Sep 21, 2021 2:19 pm
Probably the one where people get to spend time enjoying themselves with their family. The one that got cancelled at 3 (?) days' notice last year.

Some people spend that time going to church and celebrating the birth of Jesus, which is nice for them. Others don't have still have a lovely important time anyway, which is nice for them too.
All fine and no argument (To my shame, I haven't been to church in years,- last time was Midnight Mass in Spain - preferring to deal with Head Office from home) and I wasn't particularly bringing religion into it although that's what the feast of Christmas is about, but rather who is saving Christmas and from what? . I don't really expect a sensible answer if the government are involved. Boris in a Santa Claus outfit with his little helpers would be just a jump too far.. :D
They are trying to ensure people have food. That's what they mean by 'saving Christmas'. As our supply lines have been decimated by Brexit and Covid there are genuine worries about a shortage of food - in fact we already see it as shelves are quite often far less full than they were. And many Turkey farmers as an example have warned about major issues in their supply chain - the latest CO2 shortage being another problem.

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