The Politics Thread

[Prufrock]

There was a laughable response doing the rounds from a UKIP MEP to a request for support from the All Trials group (who not unreasonably want to make drug companies have to publish all the clinical trials they do on their drugs, not just the ones that show good things). Stupid and condescending is not a good combination.

Also, if I've read it correctly, their response was to be against the proposal because it would mean the EU doing it and they're against anything the EU does on principal. F*cktards.

[Hoboh]

There was a laughable response doing the rounds from a UKIP MEP to a request for support from the All Trials group (who not unreasonably want to make drug companies have to publish all the clinical trials they do on their drugs, not just the ones that show good things). Stupid and condescending is not a good combination.

Also, if I've read it correctly, their response was to be against the proposal because it would mean the EU doing it and they're against anything the EU does on principal. F*cktards.

I'm against the EU existing, in principle, F*cktards

We can compete, on our own, in the world market; we have good companies and good products.
Against that, we have some sh*te management that's not made better by a mass of 'rules and directives' and worse still, now here is the rub;
Idiots who supposedly dislike with a passion the 'Del boy' type businessmen and super companies that are getting fatter and richer while raping our industry and people whom actually support the institution these types are all for
Who are the real F*ckwits?

[Bijou Bob]

The government has now confirmed the continuation of the ban on books being sent to prisoners.

This is on 'security' grounds.

Presumably they are worried that books called 'How to escape from prison' will be sent in, or books with weapons concealed within the covers. Or drugs soaked into the corners of the pages. Or that a Collected Shakespeare has enough weight to serve as a lethal weapon.

They are almost certainly worried that reading will make the cons more intelligent than the screws. In this they are almost certainly correct.

'Screws' William? I'm rather surprised at your attitude to working class men doing society's dirty work.

I've been inside a good few prisons and frankly, wouldn't do that job for a gold clock.

Sadly, given the rates of illiteracy amongst inmates, I'm not sure a ban on books will cause much of a problem.

[Beefheart]

Bloody liar Clegg!!!

The Lib Dem leader said three million jobs in Britain depended on the EU, arguing that multi-national companies would pull investment out of the UK if it left the EU.

Same as the three grand every household gets every year?

Feck off back under your stone, snake!

He didn't say 'depended on' he said 'were linked to'. He also didn't say that 3m jobs would disappear overnight if we left the EU.

[Hoboh]

Bloody liar Clegg!!!

The Lib Dem leader said three million jobs in Britain depended on the EU, arguing that multi-national companies would pull investment out of the UK if it left the EU.

Same as the three grand every household gets every year?

Feck off back under your stone, snake!

He didn't say 'depended on' he said 'were linked to'. He also didn't say that 3m jobs would disappear overnight if we left the EU.

The three grand then please seeing you are so 'in the know'
I'm looking for the last four years worth, I'll write the rest off 'cause I gotta have this for the summer.

[Beefheart]

I don't know anything about this 3 grand, I just saw the debate and know that isn't what he said.

[Hoboh]

Should be meat and drink for all the Socialists out there

http://eu-rope.ideasoneurope.eu/2013/09 ... of-europe/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Furthermore, I think we’ve become generally richer during our membership of the European Union, despite the huge economic hurdles now facing us, which I believe, naively or otherwise, will be temporary. Back in the 1970s, at the time of our entry to the ‘European’ club and that first referendum, Britain was considerably poorer than now. Regardless of our current ‘mountain of debt’, can anyone name a time in history when, generally, the population has been richer, healthier, more educated or lived longer than now? The country has seen a huge transformation in its standard of living during our membership of the European Union.

There's nothing wrong with this country, nanny EU and granny Merkel are making everything all right.



Oh hang on the bitch is waking up!!

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/19ceeada-b508 ... abdc0.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Maybe there is a God out there.

[BWFC_Insane]

Bloody liar Clegg!!!

The Lib Dem leader said three million jobs in Britain depended on the EU, arguing that multi-national companies would pull investment out of the UK if it left the EU.

Same as the three grand every household gets every year?

Feck off back under your stone, snake!

Presumably you have some evidence as to why this is not true?

[Hoboh]

Bloody liar Clegg!!!

The Lib Dem leader said three million jobs in Britain depended on the EU, arguing that multi-national companies would pull investment out of the UK if it left the EU.

Same as the three grand every household gets every year?

Feck off back under your stone, snake!

Presumably you have some evidence as to why this is not true?

Presumably you have some evidence as to why it is true?

I still have not found the annual Three grand btw, it wasn't behind the TV.

[BWFC_Insane]

Bloody liar Clegg!!!

The Lib Dem leader said three million jobs in Britain depended on the EU, arguing that multi-national companies would pull investment out of the UK if it left the EU.

Same as the three grand every household gets every year?

Feck off back under your stone, snake!

Presumably you have some evidence as to why this is not true?

Presumably you have some evidence as to why it is true?

I still have not found the annual Three grand btw, it wasn't behind the TV.

It is based on research carried out that shows 3M jobs were "linked" to trade with the EU. Actually that research was several years old and the number has been revised to around 4.5M. These are published pieces of research. They do not say that those jobs would be lost were we not in the EU. They say that there are 4.5M jobs in the UK linked directly to trade with the EU. What the research suggests is a greater risk to those jobs were we out of the EU. Not necessarily a loss of them immediately.

In addition, what is not being measured here, for example is how many jobs in Higher Education are dependent upon being in the EU directly (as a lot of University funding comes from the EU). Those jobs would presumably vanish as soon as we exited.

So I think the number Clegg used was actually wrong, but lower than the latest data actually suggests.

[Hoboh]

“There are three million of our fellow citizens, men and women, in this country whose jobs rely directly on our participation and role and place in what is after all the world’s largest borderless single market with 500 million consumers right on our doorstep… isolation costs jobs, costs growth, costs people’s livelihood.” Nick Clegg, Today Programme, 31 October 2011

Linked? does not sound like Clegg said that

Why don't you admit it is all airy-fairy stuff about these jobs etc, one side can spout one thing the other can deny and debunk it.
I can see why for some people the EU appeals;
The bosses and large business can stitch up things to suit them while occasionally looking like they have conceded something to the other side of the EU spectrum, the quazi socialists.
The reality is the big bad business and non taxpaying, zero contract hours, cheap labour, no national pride, wallers are the ones running the show and you poor mugs are falling for it.

[Prufrock]

There was a laughable response doing the rounds from a UKIP MEP to a request for support from the All Trials group (who not unreasonably want to make drug companies have to publish all the clinical trials they do on their drugs, not just the ones that show good things). Stupid and condescending is not a good combination.

Also, if I've read it correctly, their response was to be against the proposal because it would mean the EU doing it and they're against anything the EU does on principal. F*cktards.

I'm against the EU existing, in principle, F*cktards

We can compete, on our own, in the world market; we have good companies and good products.
Against that, we have some sh*te management that's not made better by a mass of 'rules and directives' and worse still, now here is the rub;
Idiots who supposedly dislike with a passion the 'Del boy' type businessmen and super companies that are getting fatter and richer while raping our industry and people whom actually support the institution these types are all for
Who are the real F*ckwits?

Which isn't the same thing, is it?

I think we're all clear on your position on the EU by now, but surely even you aren't blinkered enough that you can't accept that *some* of what it does positive, and so don't oppose those bits out of some childish petulance?

It's perfectly possible to be against the EU whilst at the same time, as a fecking MEP, to use your position to do good things whilst you're at it. They won't support an EU law forcing drug companies to publish tests which reflect negatively on their drugs because they don't like the EU. Wankers. Sinn Fein in tweed, the cnuts.

[Hoboh]

There was a laughable response doing the rounds from a UKIP MEP to a request for support from the All Trials group (who not unreasonably want to make drug companies have to publish all the clinical trials they do on their drugs, not just the ones that show good things). Stupid and condescending is not a good combination.

Also, if I've read it correctly, their response was to be against the proposal because it would mean the EU doing it and they're against anything the EU does on principal. F*cktards.

I'm against the EU existing, in principle, F*cktards

We can compete, on our own, in the world market; we have good companies and good products.
Against that, we have some sh*te management that's not made better by a mass of 'rules and directives' and worse still, now here is the rub;
Idiots who supposedly dislike with a passion the 'Del boy' type businessmen and super companies that are getting fatter and richer while raping our industry and people whom actually support the institution these types are all for
Who are the real F*ckwits?

Which isn't the same thing, is it?

I think we're all clear on your position on the EU by now, but surely even you aren't blinkered enough that you can't accept that *some* of what it does positive, and so don't oppose those bits out of some childish petulance?

It's perfectly possible to be against the EU whilst at the same time, as a fecking MEP, to use your position to do good things whilst you're at it. They won't support an EU law forcing drug companies to publish tests which reflect negatively on their drugs because they don't like the EU. Wankers. Sinn Fein in tweed, the cnuts.

I agreed with you, to a point, until you rather lost it in the last sentences.

[BWFC_Insane]

“There are three million of our fellow citizens, men and women, in this country whose jobs rely directly on our participation and role and place in what is after all the world’s largest borderless single market with 500 million consumers right on our doorstep… isolation costs jobs, costs growth, costs people’s livelihood.” Nick Clegg, Today Programme, 31 October 2011

Linked? does not sound like Clegg said that

Why don't you admit it is all airy-fairy stuff about these jobs etc, one side can spout one thing the other can deny and debunk it.
I can see why for some people the EU appeals;
The bosses and large business can stitch up things to suit them while occasionally looking like they have conceded something to the other side of the EU spectrum, the quazi socialists.
The reality is the big bad business and non taxpaying, zero contract hours, cheap labour, no national pride, wallers are the ones running the show and you poor mugs are falling for it.

Well the research describes the jobs as "directly linked". One might argue about the definitions of words used and of course he is taking a particular slant on that piece of research (as all politicians do).

But what he said isn't necessarily wrong. You can't estimate how many of those jobs would be affected or not were we to come out of the EU with any accuracy. He isn't saying they'd be lost, he's saying they "rely directly" which is perhaps wording it too strongly, but still.

EDIT: And I didn't realise he said that in 2011. His numbers were correct then. The latest research shows the number has risen now to 4.5M.

[Hoboh]

“There are three million of our fellow citizens, men and women, in this country whose jobs rely directly on our participation and role and place in what is after all the world’s largest borderless single market with 500 million consumers right on our doorstep… isolation costs jobs, costs growth, costs people’s livelihood.” Nick Clegg, Today Programme, 31 October 2011

Linked? does not sound like Clegg said that

Why don't you admit it is all airy-fairy stuff about these jobs etc, one side can spout one thing the other can deny and debunk it.
I can see why for some people the EU appeals;
The bosses and large business can stitch up things to suit them while occasionally looking like they have conceded something to the other side of the EU spectrum, the quazi socialists.
The reality is the big bad business and non taxpaying, zero contract hours, cheap labour, no national pride, wallers are the ones running the show and you poor mugs are falling for it.

Well the research describes the jobs as "directly linked". One might argue about the definitions of words used and of course he is taking a particular slant on that piece of research (as all politicians do).

But what he said isn't necessarily wrong. You can't estimate how many of those jobs would be affected or not were we to come out of the EU with any accuracy. He isn't saying they'd be lost, he's saying they "rely directly" which is perhaps wording it too strongly, but still.

EDIT: And I didn't realise he said that in 2011. His numbers were correct then. The latest research shows the number has risen now to 4.5M.

Edit away all you like
I think he like you is being a little ecconomical with reports

So is Nick Clegg basing his claim – also quoted in last year’s Liberal Democrats manifesto - on these dated and more wide-ranging analyses?
Department for Business, Innovation and Skills
When we contacted the Lib Dems to find out where this figure came from they said it had come from an analysis by the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills, which has been referenced in various Commons debates, including one in September 2011 about overseas investment. This analysis was apparently conducted in 2006 and estimated approximately 3.5 million UK jobs were dependent directly or indirectly on the export of goods and services to the EU.
Full Fact have been in contact with BIS to try to track down the report from which this figure is drawn, but the Department were only able to confirm that as far as they were aware there were no official reports published with this figure included.
One reader was in touch to point us towards this 2008 report by BIS’s predecessor, the Department for Business, Enterprise and Regulatory Reform (BERR), as possibly the source the Lib Dems were referring to. This does find that:
“approximately 3 – 3.5 million British jobs are linked (both directly and indirectly) with exports to the EU.”

While the numbers match up with Nick Clegg’s, the rhetoric doesn’t quite. The BERR report is explicit that it is dealing with all those jobs linked - directly or indirectly - with EU trade, while Nick Clegg is equally explicit in his claim that he is referring to only those jobs that are directly linked to EU membership.

European Commission

However when we contacted the Deputy Prime Minister’s team at the Cabinet Office, they pointed us towards an entirely different source for the claim: a statistic put forward by the European Commission.
But they were unable to refer us to the exact report this corresponded to, instead saying we would be able to find it quoted in a number of different articles.
However this wasn’t as straightforward as they suggested.
Full Fact found a BIS report from February this year, on the UK Government Response to the European Commission Consultation on the Single Market Act, which stated that “the single market has also contributed to increased growth of at least 1.85 per cent and the creation of 2.75 million new jobs across the EU since 1992.” This figure is also repeated in various government websites.

This seems to be the only statistic from the EC which is readily available regarding jobs created as a result of the EU. If this was the statistic to which Mr Clegg referred, which seems likely, he was wildly incorrect to use it in relation to UK jobs specifically, as it is the total created across EU nations.


What is the real figure?

We have contacted the EC to see if they are aware of any UK-specific estimates of the number jobs created as a consequence of EU membership, but we are waiting to hear back.
The most recent report Full Fact could find was conducted by Civitas in 2004. This provided an assessment of all the previous reports and concluded that “the economic impact of British withdrawal from the EU would be marginal—less than one per cent of GDP. Putting it another way, these three studies find that, for the UK, the net economic benefits of EU membership are at best marginal.”

Given this dearth of reliable information, we are left to choose between a dated estimate of jobs benefiting from EU-wide trade, but not necessarily dependent upon EU membership, and an EC estimate of jobs created across Europe, when looking at Mr Clegg’s claim. Neither supports his assertion that three million jobs “rely directly” on the EU.

Update (25 February 2014)

The government has confirmed the source of the estimate that 3.5 million jobs are dependent on EU membership in answer to a parliamentary question in the House of Lords. It said:


“The estimate of 3.5 million jobs linked to trade with the European Union is based on the assumption that the share of UK employment linked to trade with the EU is equal to the share of total UK value added (GDP) generated in the production of goods and services exported to the EU.

“The calculation uses data from UK Input-Output tables to estimate the proportion of UK value-added content generated in exports of goods and services and applies this to the values of UK exports to the EU. This is then divided by total UK GDP and the resultant proportion then applied to the total UK labour force to estimate the proportion of the labour force linked to EU exports on a value-added basis.”

Again, this doesn’t show these jobs are dependent on the UK’s membership of the EU, to such an extent that leaving it would cost this many jobs.

[Hoboh]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... tries.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Ah well jobseekers, bow down and doff caps to the EU for bringing in competition.

What a feckin' policy!!!
To think there are EU'rs on here that still think Tebbit was a w*nker for telling people to get on their bikes, never mind a Eurostar!!

Carry on Europe will be riddled with civil unrest for decades in the not too distant future, then watch the Russians move.

[Harry Genshaw]

It is based on research carried out that shows 3M jobs were "linked" to trade with the EU. Actually that research was several years old and the number has been revised to around 4.5M. These are published pieces of research. They do not say that those jobs would be lost were we not in the EU. They say that there are 4.5M jobs in the UK linked directly to trade with the EU. What the research suggests is a greater risk to those jobs were we out of the EU. Not necessarily a loss of them immediately.

In addition, what is not being measured here, for example is how many jobs in Higher Education are dependent upon being in the EU directly (as a lot of University funding comes from the EU). Those jobs would presumably vanish as soon as we exited.

So I think the number Clegg used was actually wrong, but lower than the latest data actually suggests.

I dont pretend to know the finer points of this debate but the Lib Dem spokesman on Five live last night said EXACTLY that i.e. those 3m jobs were dependent on us being in Europe.

As far as I can recall, this was a reason why the same party were encouraging us to join the Euro 10+ years ago. We couldn't possibly trade with our own currency when everyone else was using the Euro

[William the White]

The government has now confirmed the continuation of the ban on books being sent to prisoners.

This is on 'security' grounds.

Presumably they are worried that books called 'How to escape from prison' will be sent in, or books with weapons concealed within the covers. Or drugs soaked into the corners of the pages. Or that a Collected Shakespeare has enough weight to serve as a lethal weapon.

They are almost certainly worried that reading will make the cons more intelligent than the screws. In this they are almost certainly correct.

'Screws' William? I'm rather surprised at your attitude to working class men doing society's dirty work.

I've been inside a good few prisons and frankly, wouldn't do that job for a gold clock.

Sadly, given the rates of illiteracy amongst inmates, I'm not sure a ban on books will cause much of a problem.

I don't know whether this is indifference or despair. Either way it's wrong.

Writing classes, drama and art groups, are always over subscribed when permitted.

And I did post earlier that basic literacy and numeracy classes would be more than helpful in equipping offenders to exercise genuine choices about their future. I'd say essential. But I note you don't suggest that. A sneer is enough.

Some screws are worth a gold clock. Others are brutal bullies. And talking about 'working class men' ignores all the female prison officers. Time to update your take on the world, perhaps?

[BWFC_Insane]

It is based on research carried out that shows 3M jobs were "linked" to trade with the EU. Actually that research was several years old and the number has been revised to around 4.5M. These are published pieces of research. They do not say that those jobs would be lost were we not in the EU. They say that there are 4.5M jobs in the UK linked directly to trade with the EU. What the research suggests is a greater risk to those jobs were we out of the EU. Not necessarily a loss of them immediately.

In addition, what is not being measured here, for example is how many jobs in Higher Education are dependent upon being in the EU directly (as a lot of University funding comes from the EU). Those jobs would presumably vanish as soon as we exited.

So I think the number Clegg used was actually wrong, but lower than the latest data actually suggests.

I dont pretend to know the finer points of this debate but the Lib Dem spokesman on Five live last night said EXACTLY that i.e. those 3m jobs were dependent on us being in Europe.

As far as I can recall, this was a reason why the same party were encouraging us to join the Euro 10+ years ago. We couldn't possibly trade with our own currency when everyone else was using the Euro

Well the number (actually now 4.5M) is right. The degree to which those jobs are kept/lost based on being in/out of the EU is where the debate lies.

There is no doubt that exiting the EU would put those jobs "at risk". Even the research concluded that. But that is someway short of losing 4.5M jobs overnight. On the other hand you couldn't rule that out either.

[Hoboh]

It is based on research carried out that shows 3M jobs were "linked" to trade with the EU. Actually that research was several years old and the number has been revised to around 4.5M. These are published pieces of research. They do not say that those jobs would be lost were we not in the EU. They say that there are 4.5M jobs in the UK linked directly to trade with the EU. What the research suggests is a greater risk to those jobs were we out of the EU. Not necessarily a loss of them immediately.

In addition, what is not being measured here, for example is how many jobs in Higher Education are dependent upon being in the EU directly (as a lot of University funding comes from the EU). Those jobs would presumably vanish as soon as we exited.

So I think the number Clegg used was actually wrong, but lower than the latest data actually suggests.

I dont pretend to know the finer points of this debate but the Lib Dem spokesman on Five live last night said EXACTLY that i.e. those 3m jobs were dependent on us being in Europe.

As far as I can recall, this was a reason why the same party were encouraging us to join the Euro 10+ years ago. We couldn't possibly trade with our own currency when everyone else was using the Euro

Well the number (actually now 4.5M) is right. The degree to which those jobs are kept/lost based on being in/out of the EU is where the debate lies.

There is no doubt that exiting the EU would put those jobs "at risk". Even the research concluded that. But that is someway short of losing 4.5M jobs overnight. On the other hand you couldn't rule that out either.

Tit for Tat I would say

EU countries need to trade with us - in or out of the euro. Four million jobs in the EU depend on trade with the UK

We need to trade that’s beyond dispute we don't need to be Federalised or become a state of a Europe super entity.