The Politics Thread

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Who will you be voting for?

Labour
11
39%
Conservatives
10
36%
Liberal Democrats
2
7%
UK Independence Party (UKIP)
0
No votes
Green Party
3
11%
Plaid Cymru
0
No votes
Other
1
4%
Planet Hobo
1
4%
 
Total votes: 28

taddyontoast
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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by taddyontoast » Thu Sep 05, 2019 12:27 pm

regardless of personal politics (possibly an out-of-order opening gambit for the politics thread!) I'm not at all convinced that all the machinations happening in the HoC at the moment mark the death of parliament or make us out to be a laughing stock.

I think at least part of what's happening - buried in the bluster that is always there - is a good and healthy assertion of the sovereignty of the UK parliament - the heart of what our political system is - a parliamentary democracy. It is showing itself to be the kind of institution robust enough to stand up to anyone wishing to circumvent its authority.

That might be giving it its absolute BEST light - but I'm not thoroughly disheartened to see a strong and assertive parliament resisting attempts to sideline it... at least one of the Brexit slogans was about restoring sovereignty to our UK parliament.

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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by TANGODANCER » Thu Sep 05, 2019 1:24 pm

taddyontoast wrote:
Thu Sep 05, 2019 12:27 pm
regardless of personal politics (possibly an out-of-order opening gambit for the politics thread!) I'm not at all convinced that all the machinations happening in the HoC at the moment mark the death of parliament or make us out to be a laughing stock.

I think at least part of what's happening - buried in the bluster that is always there - is a good and healthy assertion of the sovereignty of the UK parliament - the heart of what our political system is - a parliamentary democracy. It is showing itself to be the kind of institution robust enough to stand up to anyone wishing to circumvent its authority.

That might be giving it its absolute BEST light - but I'm not thoroughly disheartened to see a strong and assertive parliament resisting attempts to sideline it... at least one of the Brexit slogans was about restoring sovereignty to our UK parliament.
The concept of Parliament is fine; it's the clowns inside Westminster that consistently pull it down government after government, ad infinitum..
The wisest and the best of men, nay, the wisest and best of their actions, may be rendered ridiculous by a person whose first object in life is a joke...Darcy. Pride and Prejudice.

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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by malcd1 » Thu Sep 05, 2019 2:45 pm

jimbo wrote:
Thu Sep 05, 2019 11:40 am
malcd1 wrote:
Wed Sep 04, 2019 8:50 pm
jimbo wrote:
Wed Sep 04, 2019 7:05 pm
TANGODANCER wrote:
Wed Sep 04, 2019 5:13 pm
The whole Brexit thing is making Parliament and the bodies that run Britain look like a right bunch of buffoons. We might be world leaders at changing guards and dressing up in pantomime frocks and wigs and stuff, but in actual politics and law enforcement we resemble a country as focused and dangerous as a Parish bring and buy sale, only not as lethal . Too many cooks in the kitchen and most with not a clue how to boil an egg. I've avoided politics almost all my life because nothing about has changed much in it. The "opposition" is forever making the loudest noise whatever the topic.
It’s simple really tango - on one hand you’ve got someone acting undemocratically to uphold democracy, while on the other people acting democratically to overrule democracy.

This in a nutshell. The whole issue is a mess. The House of Lords, House of Commons, Speaker, all parties and every last fecking MP should be ashamed of themselves.

We are the laughingstock of the entire world and politics in this country has been unrepairably damaged.
It’s fascinating though. I’m enjoying thinking about the tactics employed by each side. It’s also very funny seeing Johnson dangling there with a minority government, all bluster, yet unable to actually do anything.
We also have a Labour party who have been oppositon for 12 years but are so weak they are scared of holding a General Election. I hate the lot of them.
Do not trust atoms. They make up everything.

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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by Prufrock » Thu Sep 05, 2019 3:10 pm

taddyontoast wrote:
Thu Sep 05, 2019 12:27 pm
regardless of personal politics (possibly an out-of-order opening gambit for the politics thread!) I'm not at all convinced that all the machinations happening in the HoC at the moment mark the death of parliament or make us out to be a laughing stock.

I think at least part of what's happening - buried in the bluster that is always there - is a good and healthy assertion of the sovereignty of the UK parliament - the heart of what our political system is - a parliamentary democracy. It is showing itself to be the kind of institution robust enough to stand up to anyone wishing to circumvent its authority.

That might be giving it its absolute BEST light - but I'm not thoroughly disheartened to see a strong and assertive parliament resisting attempts to sideline it... at least one of the Brexit slogans was about restoring sovereignty to our UK parliament.
You can stay.

Aren't many particularly impressive MPs in Parliament, but the constitution is doing its job.

It should be hard to get through changes based on a 52-48 mandate, and that should involve compromise.

It is hard to plot a course when you have a narrow referendum on favour of a vague premise (won with reliance on an argument for parliamentary supremacy) and a government trying to push through its policy implementing that result against the will of parliament.

These are difficult times, in a split country, with no easy answers. I'd be suspicious of any political system that had an easy fix for that.
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That it's going to lose its mind
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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by taddyontoast » Thu Sep 05, 2019 3:55 pm

TANGODANCER wrote:
Thu Sep 05, 2019 1:24 pm

The concept of Parliament is fine; it's the clowns inside Westminster that consistently pull it down government after government, ad infinitum..

That's not an uncommon view... I propose a system by which every few years the whole UK electorate get to choose who those clowns are inside Westminster - then we'll have nobody to blame but ourselves... oh - hang on! :wink:

My guess is that the following sentence is frustratingly true:

"The *insert any institution of your choice* would be great if only it wasn't basically made up of people." :wink:

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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by Enoch » Thu Sep 05, 2019 4:20 pm

malcd1 wrote:
Thu Sep 05, 2019 2:45 pm
We also have a Labour party who have been oppositon for 12 years

I knew it was all pretty tedious, didn't realise I'd dozed off for that long!

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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by jimbo » Thu Sep 05, 2019 6:46 pm

And now JRM uses a speech in parliament to compare neurologist Dr David Nicholl to the disgraced struck off liar Andrew Wakefield. The guy should be sacked for that, but these sorts of comments are quickly becoming normalised.
I was saying Boo-urns

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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by Lost Leopard Spot » Fri Sep 06, 2019 1:35 pm

jimbo wrote:
Thu Sep 05, 2019 6:46 pm
And now JRM uses a speech in parliament to compare neurologist Dr David Nicholl to the disgraced struck off liar Andrew Wakefield. The guy should be sacked for that, but these sorts of comments are quickly becoming normalised.

I know they are. Amongst others, you should stop making them.
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頑張ってください

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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by jimbo » Fri Sep 06, 2019 1:58 pm

Lost Leopard Spot wrote:
Fri Sep 06, 2019 1:35 pm
jimbo wrote:
Thu Sep 05, 2019 6:46 pm
And now JRM uses a speech in parliament to compare neurologist Dr David Nicholl to the disgraced struck off liar Andrew Wakefield. The guy should be sacked for that, but these sorts of comments are quickly becoming normalised.

I know they are. Amongst others, you should stop making them.


Not sure what you’re alluding to there. Happy to be given examples if I’ve said anything you see as controversial.

I still stand by my original point that JRM’s quote was utterly out of order, and it’s pleasing to see him retract it today.
I was saying Boo-urns

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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by jimbo » Fri Sep 06, 2019 2:20 pm

It’ll be interesting when an election does eventually come. Doubtless it will be billed as a Brexit election where all other issues are sidelined in the majority of voters eyes.

My take on it puts Farage as the key man (my reckoning only, feel free to pick holes in the argument). If the Brexit Party stands, I can see them splitting the ‘leave’ vote and potentially losing the election and losing Brexit.

From a conservative point of view, I don’t think they can win if the Brexit Party also run. The Brexit Party will only sit back if they strike a deal with Johnson where he fully commits to a hard clean break Brexit.

Given the ‘remain’ vote is going to be split 3 ways and the complexities of arranging pre election pacts I think it’s still quite likely the conservatives will win, but that relies on them doing some sort of deal with Farage. That sort of thing could win an election in the short term, but the image any agreement with Farage would potentially damage them moving forward and add to the narrative of them lurching further to the right.

To summarise - if Farage wants Brexit, he shouldn’t stand. If Johnson wants to win, he needs to do a deal with Farage.
I was saying Boo-urns

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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by Hoboh » Sat Sep 07, 2019 7:13 am

jimbo wrote:
Thu Sep 05, 2019 6:46 pm
And now JRM uses a speech in parliament to compare neurologist Dr David Nicholl to the disgraced struck off liar Andrew Wakefield. The guy should be sacked for that, but these sorts of comments are quickly becoming normalised.
It was out of order but it is troubling this Dr is such an expert he is guaranteeing deaths? How the hell would he know that for certain? He should stick to medical matters and keep out of political roles.

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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by Hoboh » Sat Sep 07, 2019 7:24 am

jimbo wrote:
Fri Sep 06, 2019 2:20 pm
It’ll be interesting when an election does eventually come. Doubtless it will be billed as a Brexit election where all other issues are sidelined in the majority of voters eyes.

My take on it puts Farage as the key man (my reckoning only, feel free to pick holes in the argument). If the Brexit Party stands, I can see them splitting the ‘leave’ vote and potentially losing the election and losing Brexit.

From a conservative point of view, I don’t think they can win if the Brexit Party also run. The Brexit Party will only sit back if they strike a deal with Johnson where he fully commits to a hard clean break Brexit.

Given the ‘remain’ vote is going to be split 3 ways and the complexities of arranging pre election pacts I think it’s still quite likely the conservatives will win, but that relies on them doing some sort of deal with Farage. That sort of thing could win an election in the short term, but the image any agreement with Farage would potentially damage them moving forward and add to the narrative of them lurching further to the right.

To summarise - if Farage wants Brexit, he shouldn’t stand. If Johnson wants to win, he needs to do a deal with Farage.
According to the polls Johnson is doing ok on his own. If Farage had any sense any deal would involve labour seats up here he may haul a few of them in.
I really hope labour get smashed and that dozy cow Swinsom gets a reality check, these remainiacs have had their 5 mins of glory now it is the time to grind them into the dirt.
Just as an aside I do wish someone would give the English a vote on if we want to keep Krankie and co on-board, hard border and massive barbwire fence will do for starters, let's See if being in the Euro under Greece type financial lock because of their deficit makes her popular.

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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by jimbo » Sat Sep 07, 2019 8:46 am

Hoboh wrote:
Sat Sep 07, 2019 7:13 am
jimbo wrote:
Thu Sep 05, 2019 6:46 pm
And now JRM uses a speech in parliament to compare neurologist Dr David Nicholl to the disgraced struck off liar Andrew Wakefield. The guy should be sacked for that, but these sorts of comments are quickly becoming normalised.
It was out of order but it is troubling this Dr is such an expert he is guaranteeing deaths? How the hell would he know that for certain? He should stick to medical matters and keep out of political roles.
He wasn’t just popping up uninvited - he was a contributor to the government’s own yellowhammer document, so his role was very much to apply his medical expertise in the current political landscape. Much better having relevant industry experts advise the government than letting the relatively clueless ministers just have a go on their own.
I was saying Boo-urns

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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by taddyontoast » Sat Sep 07, 2019 8:48 am

jimbo wrote:
Sat Sep 07, 2019 8:46 am
Hoboh wrote:
Sat Sep 07, 2019 7:13 am
jimbo wrote:
Thu Sep 05, 2019 6:46 pm
And now JRM uses a speech in parliament to compare neurologist Dr David Nicholl to the disgraced struck off liar Andrew Wakefield. The guy should be sacked for that, but these sorts of comments are quickly becoming normalised.
It was out of order but it is troubling this Dr is such an expert he is guaranteeing deaths? How the hell would he know that for certain? He should stick to medical matters and keep out of political roles.
He wasn’t just popping up uninvited - he was a contributor to the government’s own yellowhammer document, so his role was very much to apply his medical expertise in the current political landscape. Much better having relevant industry experts advise the government than letting the relatively clueless ministers just have a go on their own.

you'd like to think so... but experts are so yesterdays news.

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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by jimbo » Sat Sep 07, 2019 8:57 am

Hoboh wrote:
Sat Sep 07, 2019 7:24 am
jimbo wrote:
Fri Sep 06, 2019 2:20 pm
It’ll be interesting when an election does eventually come. Doubtless it will be billed as a Brexit election where all other issues are sidelined in the majority of voters eyes.

My take on it puts Farage as the key man (my reckoning only, feel free to pick holes in the argument). If the Brexit Party stands, I can see them splitting the ‘leave’ vote and potentially losing the election and losing Brexit.

From a conservative point of view, I don’t think they can win if the Brexit Party also run. The Brexit Party will only sit back if they strike a deal with Johnson where he fully commits to a hard clean break Brexit.

Given the ‘remain’ vote is going to be split 3 ways and the complexities of arranging pre election pacts I think it’s still quite likely the conservatives will win, but that relies on them doing some sort of deal with Farage. That sort of thing could win an election in the short term, but the image any agreement with Farage would potentially damage them moving forward and add to the narrative of them lurching further to the right.

To summarise - if Farage wants Brexit, he shouldn’t stand. If Johnson wants to win, he needs to do a deal with Farage.
According to the polls Johnson is doing ok on his own. If Farage had any sense any deal would involve labour seats up here he may haul a few of them in.
I really hope labour get smashed and that dozy cow Swinsom gets a reality check, these remainiacs have had their 5 mins of glory now it is the time to grind them into the dirt.
Just as an aside I do wish someone would give the English a vote on if we want to keep Krankie and co on-board, hard border and massive barbwire fence will do for starters, let's See if being in the Euro under Greece type financial lock because of their deficit makes her popular.
I think a big part of Johnson’s potential problem is how often his own side are quite brutally and openly attacking each other at the moment - see Soames in the Times today, or Ken Clarke, or the fact his brother quit. It’s a sensible plan from the opposition to leave him there a bit longer. Surely some of it will resonate with voters and cost him votes. He could be heading into an election where the evidence of his ability to do the job is an utterly chaotic few months where he failed to deliver on pretty much his only promise. Any half decent opposition would win with a landslide in that instance - the fact the conservatives still have a chance says more about Labour.
I was saying Boo-urns

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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by jimbo » Sat Sep 07, 2019 9:36 pm

Amber Rudd’s not holding back in her resignation letter!
I was saying Boo-urns

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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by TANGODANCER » Sat Sep 07, 2019 11:06 pm

June, 2016, the nations votes Exit or Remain? Right, wrong or indifferent, the Vote result was Exit.
September 2019 ...still waiting...why did we bother?
The wisest and the best of men, nay, the wisest and best of their actions, may be rendered ridiculous by a person whose first object in life is a joke...Darcy. Pride and Prejudice.

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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by Hoboh » Sun Sep 08, 2019 12:17 am

jimbo wrote:
Sat Sep 07, 2019 9:36 pm
Amber Rudd’s not holding back in her resignation letter!
One she should never have been in a position to write. Independent conservative? Bloody deluded.

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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by taddyontoast » Sun Sep 08, 2019 3:12 pm

Hoboh wrote:
Sun Sep 08, 2019 12:17 am
jimbo wrote:
Sat Sep 07, 2019 9:36 pm
Amber Rudd’s not holding back in her resignation letter!
One she should never have been in a position to write. Independent conservative? Bloody deluded.
Hoboh wrote:
Sun Sep 08, 2019 12:17 am
jimbo wrote:
Sat Sep 07, 2019 9:36 pm
Amber Rudd’s not holding back in her resignation letter!
One she should never have been in a position to write. Independent conservative? Bloody deluded.

Johnson appointed her to his cabinet. Not sure how she should not have been in a position to resign from that appointment... (unless you're suggesting that Cummings should have cut all her fingers off or confiscated her pen and paper supplies...) 🤔

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Re: The Politics Thread

Post by Enoch » Sun Sep 08, 2019 3:39 pm

taddyontoast wrote:
Sun Sep 08, 2019 3:12 pm
Not sure how she should not have been in a position to resign from that appointment...

You seem to have answered your own query.

taddyontoast wrote:
Sun Sep 08, 2019 3:12 pm
Johnson appointed her to his cabinet.

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