What happened: Death of Jean Charles de Menezes

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What happened: Death of Jean Charles de Menezes

Post by Verbal » Mon Nov 03, 2008 2:22 pm

A bit macabre, especially seeing his body at the end, but here's an interesting illustration of the events of that morning in Stockwell.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_depth/629/629/7073125.stm

Considering that 'Ivor' had identified JCDM as not the target on the bus...well, makes it all the more tragic.
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Post by KeeeeeeeBaaaaaaab » Mon Nov 03, 2008 2:51 pm

"0845: Firearms team arrive at Nightingale Lane in Balham"

Just 50 yards away from where I, and another poster on here, used to live.

The whole thing was a complete sorry mess from start to finish. God knows how the officers in charge of the operation can sleep at night, knowing what they've done to a totally innocent family. Even after there's a negative ID on de Menezes.
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Post by Lord Kangana » Mon Nov 03, 2008 3:03 pm

Most worringly, they almost shot one of the spotters cos they didn't know who he was. Doesn't exactly sound either professional or organised.
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Post by wovlad » Tue Nov 04, 2008 12:34 pm

As you run it through you can't help hoping that someone comes to there senses and stops it.

Have a lot of sympathy for the guy who shot him & for the guy who was nearly shot.

However most has to be reserved for JCMD & his family
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Post by Hoboh » Tue Nov 04, 2008 1:17 pm

Give young kids, sorry Cops guns and let them roam the streets like Wild West Deputys and this is what happens!!!
But of course they are ALWAYS safe from prosecution, how many have actually been convicted of killing unarmed or innocent people?
A Soldier gets convicted for kicking some raghead whos trying to kill him and his mates but a Copper can shoot the innocent and get away Scott Free!!!
Load of Balls, the cops should at least be charged with negligence if not MURDER!

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Post by Bruce Rioja » Tue Nov 04, 2008 1:35 pm

What happened to the bit about him vaulting the gates and legging it down the escalators? Was that just face-saving horseshit? :conf:
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Post by Puskas » Tue Nov 04, 2008 1:42 pm

Bruce Rioja wrote:What happened to the bit about him vaulting the gates and legging it down the escalators? Was that just face-saving horseshit? :conf:
I think they admitted that didn't happen some time back...
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Post by Bruce Rioja » Tue Nov 04, 2008 1:53 pm

Puskas wrote:
Bruce Rioja wrote:What happened to the bit about him vaulting the gates and legging it down the escalators? Was that just face-saving horseshit? :conf:
I think they admitted that didn't happen some time back...
Really? Well I didn't know that. Cheers, Ferenc.
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Post by mummywhycantieatcrayons » Tue Nov 04, 2008 1:58 pm

hoboh2o wrote:Give young kids, sorry Cops guns and let them roam the streets like Wild West Deputys and this is what happens!!!
But of course they are ALWAYS safe from prosecution, how many have actually been convicted of killing unarmed or innocent people?
A Soldier gets convicted for kicking some raghead whos trying to kill him and his mates but a Copper can shoot the innocent and get away Scott Free!!!
Load of Balls, the cops should at least be charged with negligence if not MURDER!
You think these police want to be pointing guns at people?

Yes it was a horrendous episode and a lot of mistakes were made, but lessons were learned and de Menezes was a victim of terrorist activity like the 52 people who died on 7/7.
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Post by fatshaft » Tue Nov 04, 2008 3:57 pm

Bruce Rioja wrote:
Puskas wrote:
Bruce Rioja wrote:What happened to the bit about him vaulting the gates and legging it down the escalators? Was that just face-saving horseshit? :conf:
I think they admitted that didn't happen some time back...
Really? Well I didn't know that. Cheers, Ferenc.
Me neither, does change my view on this quite a bit.

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Post by Lord Kangana » Tue Nov 04, 2008 4:10 pm

mummywhycantieatcrayons wrote:
hoboh2o wrote:Give young kids, sorry Cops guns and let them roam the streets like Wild West Deputys and this is what happens!!!
But of course they are ALWAYS safe from prosecution, how many have actually been convicted of killing unarmed or innocent people?
A Soldier gets convicted for kicking some raghead whos trying to kill him and his mates but a Copper can shoot the innocent and get away Scott Free!!!
Load of Balls, the cops should at least be charged with negligence if not MURDER!
You think these police want to be pointing guns at people?

Yes it was a horrendous episode and a lot of mistakes were made, but lessons were learned and de Menezes was a victim of terrorist activity like the 52 people who died on 7/7.
No, he was a victim of a police shooting. Otherwise the terrorists are perfectly within their rights to say the 7th of July victims were the victims of Britains Middle East policy. Lets not pass the buck.
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Post by Little Green Man » Tue Nov 04, 2008 4:12 pm

He used his Oyster card and even had time to pick up a copy of The Metro.

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Post by communistworkethic » Tue Nov 04, 2008 7:21 pm

it's far too easy to criticise people in this situation and forget the extraordinary circumstances the police were reacting to, they were under orders to shoot to kill and had just had terrorist attacks perpetrated by men on tubes with backpacks.

Hindsight is great, we can look and point and say "you got it wrong". But what if the police had hesitated on the day? What if they had the right target and had paused and a bomb had been detonated killing 20 people? That's the scenario the men with the fingers on the trigger faced, men who had probably never fired live rounds at a living thing.

If there are mistakes, analyse and learn, don't vilify. But if someone was wilfully negligent, prosecute.
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Post by Lord Kangana » Fri Dec 12, 2008 10:41 pm

Well the verdicts in and its err...ahhh...umm. Well not much, because apparantly the judge wouldn't allow a ruling of negligence or unlawful killing.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstop ... e-him.html

and

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/ ... mbers.html
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Post by William the White » Fri Dec 12, 2008 10:51 pm

Bruce Rioja wrote:What happened to the bit about him vaulting the gates and legging it down the escalators? Was that just face-saving horseshit? :conf:
And the jury decided that they didn't believe the lies they continued to pursue - like they issued an 'armed police' warning... abysmal... i have two sons... and if this had happened in Rio, and the jury weren;'t allowed to decide on 'unlawful killing'... How can the coroner forbid them from that? It's clear that's where they would have gone the commentators say...

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Post by William the White » Fri Dec 12, 2008 10:56 pm

mummywhycantieatcrayons wrote:
hoboh2o wrote:Give young kids, sorry Cops guns and let them roam the streets like Wild West Deputys and this is what happens!!!
But of course they are ALWAYS safe from prosecution, how many have actually been convicted of killing unarmed or innocent people?
A Soldier gets convicted for kicking some raghead whos trying to kill him and his mates but a Copper can shoot the innocent and get away Scott Free!!!
Load of Balls, the cops should at least be charged with negligence if not MURDER!
You think these police want to be pointing guns at people?

Yes it was a horrendous episode and a lot of mistakes were made, but lessons were learned and de Menezes was a victim of terrorist activity like the 52 people who died on 7/7.
Well, you know, his mum and dad think the London cops killed their son... Perhaps you could explain to them how wrong they are? I'm sure that will help them place their anger onto the true perpetrators - four dead moslems... :crazy:

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Post by blurred » Fri Dec 12, 2008 10:57 pm

Bruce Rioja wrote:
Puskas wrote:
Bruce Rioja wrote:What happened to the bit about him vaulting the gates and legging it down the escalators? Was that just face-saving horseshit? :conf:
I think they admitted that didn't happen some time back...
Really? Well I didn't know that. Cheers, Ferenc.
Yeah, that was 'confused' eyewitness testimony on the day of the shooting, quickly discovered to be nonsense when the CCTV was perused.

Amazing what people think they see, and the stories that get reproduced in the mass media without any verification of facts when these sorts of things happen.

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Post by Prufrock » Fri Dec 12, 2008 11:14 pm

Was it a tragedy? Yes. Were mistakes made? Yes. Are there things that clearly need improving? Yes. I don't however buy into the big witch hunt against the police that's going on. They were in a time of fear, when there had been successful and failed terrorist attacks recently. They had a guy who to the best of their knowledge at the time could have been a terrorist. The whole thing is a tradgedy, and the government should be doing everything possible to look after the familly of De Menezes, and of all concerned, but there doesnt seem to be any evidence that said anyone acted in anything other than good faith given the knowledge they had.
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Post by Lord Kangana » Fri Dec 12, 2008 11:24 pm

Put simply Pru, the Police have to perform to a higher standard than the average killer. The day we start having a debate based on "well they started it" is the day to give up, we will always face threats, they cannot be used as an excuse to lower our standards.
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Post by William the White » Fri Dec 12, 2008 11:39 pm

Prufrock wrote:Was it a tragedy? Yes. Were mistakes made? Yes. Are there things that clearly need improving? Yes. I don't however buy into the big witch hunt against the police that's going on. They were in a time of fear, when there had been successful and failed terrorist attacks recently. They had a guy who to the best of their knowledge at the time could have been a terrorist. The whole thing is a tradgedy, and the government should be doing everything possible to look after the familly of De Menezes, and of all concerned, but there doesnt seem to be any evidence that said anyone acted in anything other than good faith given the knowledge they had.
Good faith is not the issue. Competence is. Incompetence that leads to the death of an innocent person is rather bigger than a mistake. The jury showed they rejected the police's explanation of events - and a lot of commentators seem to think they would have done it more vehemently, given the chance.

I don't think the officers were looking to kill an innocent person, of course not. I do think the entire operation was reprehensibly incompetent, that the immediate police response - 'explanation' - was a disgraceful tissue of lies and that pleading 'good faith' is almost absurd. Indeed 'faith' - what you happen to believe - is a ludicrous defence. Evidence is better.

To say this is not a witch hunt. Those hunted and hanged, tortured, burned women were not witches, they were totally innocent of the wrong doing they were accused of. The met police were not innocent. In my view the jury was outrageously forbidden from coming to an unequivocal verdict on that issue. The officers were not guilty of murder or manslaughter, of course not.

a man caught a bus. he got on a train. he was shot seven times in the head. and the coroner forbade a verdict of unlawful killing. Do you really feel that's adequate?

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