Today I'm angry about.....

[bedwetter2]

Imagine thinking champagne was a bad thing. Imagine that.

Happened by chance to do a little bit of MOD intelligence stuff actually (I mean law, I haven't shot anyone). It's absolutely fascinating, but yeah, bravo two zero is less than accurate.

I feel safe in the hands of Michael the Geordie.

Well of course champagne is a good thing but when a socialist suffix is added it becomes less so.

At the moment, officers and warrant officers in the regiment are involved mainly in training forces in certain Baltic states and middle eastern states in counter-terrorism as well as helping/directing police in some areas of the UK. Hardly glamorous, eh?

[Prufrock]

It's pretty straight-forward. The problems start in homes and from contact with others they associate with. Religions don't preach violence and murder; it's just used as an excuse to facilitate it by maniacs and killers themselves. Just like decent kids in any environ go wrong in order to be one of the gang, only a stronger influence and teaching at home and school ( and a thorough grounding in right and wrong) will counteract this. I have seen (and had in my charge) a ten year old girl from Northern Ireland screaming bitter, foul-mouthed abuse at a passing truck load of British soldiers. She was incensed and I had to take her away or she could have got me arrested. What I saw she didn't learn in any church or school but was taught and instilled in her by parents (or lack of) and those around her. If she was like that at ten, what chance does she have of being a balanced thinker at twenty? Sectarian communities have the means to control their inhabitants. If they preach dislike hate and loathing as being because someone isn't of their own following, then what has that got to do with the Bible, Quran, Torah or any other scriptures? The answer is nothing at all, only those passing as supposed "holy men" and spiritual leaders, make the rules and twist meanings to suit their own ends. If the same "holy men" preached about the wrongs of it all, then they could outlaw the wrong-doers in their own communities. How many people preaching Christianity ever pray or have seen the inside of a Church in their lives? The lack of Churches in this country discounts religion as having any bearing on any of it. The word of God has been replaced by the word of man; admit it and it becomes obvious that religion is just an excuse and not to blame. Lean on the preachers and teachers to do their job and isolate the killers from the rest. That's the only way to differentiate between common sense and fantasy.

Amen....

What do you think religion is?

[malcd1]

It's pretty straight-forward. The problems start in homes and from contact with others they associate with. Religions don't preach violence and murder;

Religions have preached violence and murder for centuries. Suppressed or murdered non-believers and Pagans and put people to death for renouncing their gods. How do you think religions spread around the world? Christianity has cleaned it act up a little bit in the last few hundred years but Islam is still the medieval, barbaric, violent religion as it has always been.

Wherever Islam is there will be murder and violence. Africa, the Middle East, Asia and now Europe. They murder non-Muslims and burn down churches of other faiths. Muslims murder other Muslims because they believe their version of the religion is the true form of Islam (They are the same bloody religion with the same god FFS!). Yes I am saying Muslims are persecuted more than anyone else by other Muslims. It is Islam that is the problem and some Muslims who interpret it in its literal sense.

If you really want to see what is preached in some Muslim schools, Mosques and Synagogues (and places like the Westboro Baptist Church), there are loads of videos calling people like you and me kaffirs, lower than dogs and Muslims must not mix with us.

[Lord Kangana]

You should see some of the shit that pops up on my Facebook feed from other people's posts.It's not private, and it's not Muslims.

[TANGODANCER]

What do you think religion is?

Google it. You know damn well what it is Pru, although a self-confessed non-believer is hardly the best person to be asking me. Religion is the belief and worship of God ( or whatever deity individual followers believe). You don't believe, fine, your choice, I'm no preacher or converter. I.m a Catholic, you are an Atheist, that's all very okay with me. I have no desire to come and set your wheelie bin on fire or urinate on your rhubarb patch.

Read your sources for religion's actual relevance in history. In strict religion, how far removed is Islam actually from Christianity? Damascus, for centuries the accepted hot bed of Islam, houses the Umayyam mosque that they claim "Jesus" will return to. They also claim the head of "John the Baptist", Christianity's most ardent disciple is housed their. So what are we actually at war about? Could it just be the same greed and power that that uses war and hatred and any old excuse to attain it that's always been the prize? Did religion actually have anything to do with the 800 year occupation of Spain by Muslims or did the unscrupulous in Damascus fuel the fires by claiming Andalusia was their gift from God? They spent ages fighting each other even when they conquered it. The Caliphs and Sultans sons, by their harems of wives, all arguing who should be in charge caused the splinter kingdoms that eventually led to 1492.
The fact that Spain was Christian and the opposition Muslim was so very convenient an excuse to make it all last those 800 years.

Religion is a convenient excuse. Suppose Islam did wipe out the Christian world entirely, what then? Suppose the I.R.A wiped out all non-Catholic Ireland, what then? With nothing to do would they all pray and give thanks for peace all day? Greed and power amongst the ruling powers write the scripts, not the Bible or the Quran. .

What religion isn't, is this:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/resources/idt ... _in_terror

[Lost Leopard Spot]

...Today a spacecraft we launched is for the first time in Human history skimming the atmosphere of Saturn. And yet this news (if printed at all in whatever paper you buy) is largely buried in a tiny article in the depths of your newspaper.
We will have achieved true civilisation when this sort of news dominates the front page, rather than the hunt for some Muslim who has slaughtered innocents by driving into them in a van, or the non-news that the Queen won't abdicate, or that Asda is not named as the supermarket peddling infected sausages...

[TANGODANCER]

It's pretty straight-forward. The problems start in homes and from contact with others they associate with. Religions don't preach violence and murder;

Religions have preached violence and murder for centuries. Suppressed or murdered non-believers and Pagans and put people to death for renouncing their gods. How do you think religions spread around the world? Christianity has cleaned it act up a little bit in the last few hundred years but Islam is still the medieval, barbaric, violent religion as it has always been.

Wherever Islam is there will be murder and violence. Africa, the Middle East, Asia and now Europe. They murder non-Muslims and burn down churches of other faiths. Muslims murder other Muslims because they believe their version of the religion is the true form of Islam (They are the same bloody religion with the same god FFS!). Yes I am saying Muslims are persecuted more than anyone else by other Muslims. It is Islam that is the problem and some Muslims who interpret it in its literal sense.

If you really want to see what is preached in some Muslim schools, Mosques and Synagogues (and places like the Westboro Baptist Church), there are loads of videos calling people like you and me kaffirs, lower than dogs and Muslims must not mix with us.

My argument isn't that none of those things happen, they all do. Not one thing of that is "religion" ie, the worship of God, just human beings interpreting it deliberately wrongly and using it as an excuse to further their own end. Christianity perpetrates no evil, some of those calling themselves Christians, however...???

[malcd1]

You should see some of the shit that pops up on my Facebook feed from other people's posts.It's not private, and it's not Muslims.

And mine (but never by me). I am a devout atheist but hate indiscriminate violence against anyone especially innocent people being bombed, shot, stabbed and run over. I also detest these militant left wing groups such as Antiefa who promote fighting violence with violence and smashing and burning anything in their way.

Sometimes it is better to give fascist right wing racists a platform to spout their hate so people can see them for what they are. It worked great with Nick Griffin and the BNP when people realised he was just a racist and nothing more.

[TANGODANCER]

...Today a spacecraft we launched is for the first time in Human history skimming the atmosphere of Saturn. And yet this news (if printed at all in whatever paper you buy) is largely buried in a tiny article in the depths of your newspaper.
We will have achieved true civilisation when this sort of news dominates the front page, rather than the hunt for some Muslim who has slaughtered innocents by driving into them in a van, or the non-news that the Queen won't abdicate, or that Asda is not named as the supermarket peddling infected sausages...

Oh, come on L.L.S, Katie Price is news, and all that ass-showing community of wannabee "models" peddling revelations about footballers. Who wants to take pics of outer space when they can point their cameras up somebody's frock. That's news man..

[Lost Leopard Spot]

...Today a spacecraft we launched is for the first time in Human history skimming the atmosphere of Saturn. And yet this news (if printed at all in whatever paper you buy) is largely buried in a tiny article in the depths of your newspaper.
We will have achieved true civilisation when this sort of news dominates the front page, rather than the hunt for some Muslim who has slaughtered innocents by driving into them in a van, or the non-news that the Queen won't abdicate, or that Asda is not named as the supermarket peddling infected sausages...

Oh, come on L.L.S, Katie Price is news, and all that ass-showing community of wannabee "models" peddling revelations about footballers. Who wants to take pics of outer space when they can point their cameras up somebody's frock. That's news man..

So, basically, you're saying Katie Price is more newsworthy than the rings of Uranus. Civilisation will just have to wait awhile I suppose.

[malcd1]

It's pretty straight-forward. The problems start in homes and from contact with others they associate with. Religions don't preach violence and murder;

Religions have preached violence and murder for centuries. Suppressed or murdered non-believers and Pagans and put people to death for renouncing their gods. How do you think religions spread around the world? Christianity has cleaned it act up a little bit in the last few hundred years but Islam is still the medieval, barbaric, violent religion as it has always been.

Wherever Islam is there will be murder and violence. Africa, the Middle East, Asia and now Europe. They murder non-Muslims and burn down churches of other faiths. Muslims murder other Muslims because they believe their version of the religion is the true form of Islam (They are the same bloody religion with the same god FFS!). Yes I am saying Muslims are persecuted more than anyone else by other Muslims. It is Islam that is the problem and some Muslims who interpret it in its literal sense.

If you really want to see what is preached in some Muslim schools, Mosques and Synagogues (and places like the Westboro Baptist Church), there are loads of videos calling people like you and me kaffirs, lower than dogs and Muslims must not mix with us.

My argument isn't that none of those things happen, they all do. Not one thing of that is "religion" ie, the worship of God, just human beings interpreting it deliberately wrongly and using it as an excuse to further their own end. Christianity perpetrates no evil, some of those calling themselves Christians, however...???

All the religious books promote violence no matter how you choose to interpret them. Even your God wiped out entire cities, burnt people, sent hailstones from heaven, plagues and famine (according to the bible). You can't say that the bible is Gods word and then pretend it doesn't advocate murder and violence. The bible is more blood thirsty than a Stephen King novel.

[Lord Kangana]

Sometimes it is better to give fascist right wing racists a platform to spout their hate so people can see them for what they are. It worked great with Nick Griffin and the BNP when people realised he was just a racist and nothing more.

Why stop at right wing racists?

Surely you'd advocate that all extremism be given a public platform. if it were to eradicate extremism?

[malcd1]

Sometimes it is better to give fascist right wing racists a platform to spout their hate so people can see them for what they are. It worked great with Nick Griffin and the BNP when people realised he was just a racist and nothing more.

Why stop at right wing racists?

Surely you'd advocate that all extremism be given a public platform. if it were to eradicate extremism?

'IF' it was to eradicate extremism of any type then yes. It certainly worked for a political party who wanted votes but I'm not sure it would work for all groups especially ones that have been brainwashed from birth that they will go to hell and would receive a death sentence if they renounced their faith.

I think it might open peoples eyes if it was done in public rather than being hidden from view in mosques. At least people would stop pretending it isn't happening.

[Prufrock]

So more meaningless platitudes and a definition that deliberately excludes anything you don't want it to include, then.

I wasn't confident when it started "it's pretty straight forward".

It's not, it's complicated. It's a number of factors in each and every case. It's also definitely, unequivocally in many cases that religion is one of those factors. They're not shouting God is Great for a laugh. It's like arguing with the flat earth society.

[TANGODANCER]

All the religious books promote violence no matter how you choose to interpret them. Even your God wiped out entire cities, burnt people, sent hailstones from heaven, plagues and famine (according to the bible). You can't say that the bible is Gods word and then pretend it doesn't advocate murder and violence. The bible is more blood thirsty than a Stephen King novel.

The Bible doesn't advocate violence against peaceful law-abiding or God-fearing folk Malc (you can't play because you don't believe in God anyway. ) . I realise we'll never agree, so arguing is pointless, but God's retributions were against sinners and those who disobeyed the Commandments, not about who got what in terms of land and power according to the gang boss with the most troops. The ancient Egyptiand worshipped the sun, moon, stars and a whole variety of gods. If you don't believe in God, then how can religion be to blame for war, murder and persecution? You're actually proving my points that religion isn't to blame but those using it for their own ends. To claim religion is to blame is then saying that God is to blame for it all.

[TANGODANCER]

So more meaningless platitudes and a definition that deliberately excludes anything you don't want it to include, then.
I wasn't confident when it started "it's pretty straight forward".
It's not, it's complicated. It's a number of factors in each and every case. It's also definitely, unequivocally in many cases that religion is one of those factors. They're not shouting God is Great for a laugh. It's like arguing with the flat earth society.

Then why ask me what religion is, particularly when you don't believe in it anyway ? All you're saying is that your view is different/superior to mine, which was always going to be the case. It isn't celestial beings shouting "God is great" but armies of brain-washed and (if you count the vast numbers of hill tribe nomads etc who are mainly uneducated or just kids unable enough to think for them selves) disciples of Islam's Amans chanting their homework just like the priests who did the same thing with "God wills it" when it was actually kings and popes doing the willing for gain the same uneducated peasants from the countrysides of England and France. The intentions of both were the same and definitely more earthly than heavenly, thus it ever was. The powers that be write the songs, the followers sing the chorus. What's so complicated about fact?

[Prufrock]

You're using the word religion and then talking about god.

Of course god isn't to blame for terrorism, for at least one fairly obvious reason.

To take Islam as a convenient example, I'd suggest that the religion is the word we give to describe beliefs in an omnipotent deity, Allah, that Mohammed is the last prophet, that the Qur'an is literally the word of God dictated to Mohammed, and there are some hadiths that also contain teachings. I'm sure there could be sectarian quibbles about bits of that but I think it's a fair enough good faith description of "Islam".

Everyone's relationship with their religion is different, but if you think that relationship with Allah, Mohamed and those texts is not one of the factors that contribute to some of these terrorists' actions then you might as well be arguing white is black for the good we're going to get.

[TANGODANCER]

You're using the word religion and then talking about god. Of course god isn't to blame for terrorism, for at least one fairly obvious reason.
To take Islam as a convenient example, I'd suggest that the religion is the word we give to describe beliefs in an omnipotent deity, Allah, that Mohammed is the last prophet, that the Qur'an is literally the word of God dictated to Mohammed, and there are some hadiths that also contain teachings. I'm sure there could be sectarian quibbles about bits of that but I think it's a fair enough good faith description of "Islam". Everyone's relationship with their religion is different, but if you think that relationship with Allah, Mohamed and those texts is not one of the factors that contribute to some of these terrorists' actions then you might as well be arguing white is black for the good we're going to get.

Islam was founded (around/in) the 7th century, 600? years after Jesus was born.(Muhammed died in 632) That, without specifying the exact moment) is a fact. It is a religion based on confirming the events of the Old Testaments, Adam, Moses etc and the will of God as stated by them. The biblical events Malc quotes are all from the Old Testament long before Jesus was born (which was 600 years before Muhamed) . The events of today (2017 years later than the said birth of Jesus) would seem to be clinging very desperately to the skirts of events of a religion that was ancient before Islam was even heard of, is the excuse for terrorism. The will of God, or the will of man, which is most relevant? Religion is just a convenient excuse to keep the bonfire lit.

[Lost Leopard Spot]

To answer Prufeock's question as to how we cure this:
I would submit that firstly we must (as a society) admit the problem, and then try to address the root causes.
It seems fairly self evident to me that Islam is incompatible with Western Society, at least within the confines of same nationality.
It is as nonesensical to state you can be a British Muslim as it is to say you can be an English Scotsman. One precludes the other. You may be English and live in Scotland but you ain't Scottish.
The most peaceful nations are the most coherent and least diversified. I've lived and visited in two: Japan and Bhutan. Both are monocultural and nativist societies.
The first step therefore is to impose, through secularism, schooling, laws and customs, a British approach to citizenship and actively discourage Islamic apartness, such as the veil, building of mosques with minarets, religious schools, faith based import of brides from outside the UK, etc.
We'll never get to the first step because our liberal values preclude such a programme, hence we are pretty much fxcked.

[Prufrock]

I don't think I asked that question but you absolutely can be a British Muslim. It's like saying you can't be tall and dark haired.

Tango, if nothing has happened in religion since Jesus surely you don't have a religion. When you go to confession or take communion, is that a religious act? What about when you pray?