Today I'm angry about.....

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Re: Today I'm angry about.....

Post by Gooner Girl » Wed Sep 22, 2021 11:39 am

Bruce Rioja wrote:
Wed Sep 22, 2021 10:07 am
Gooner Girl wrote:
Tue Sep 21, 2021 10:48 pm
Not me, but girl twin is unimpressed by boy twin voting for her mate instead of her in the school class elections today. Tbf, she had poorly prepared and the other girl was probably more impressive in her speech but no family loyalty here it would seem! :lol:
Rather young for him to be setting his stall out, but fair play to you, Jack - get in there, son. :lol:
I’m hoping that one day, in the future, they may decide they actually like each other!

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Re: Today I'm angry about.....

Post by Burnden Paddock » Wed Sep 22, 2021 7:25 pm

Gooner Girl wrote:
Wed Sep 22, 2021 11:39 am
Bruce Rioja wrote:
Wed Sep 22, 2021 10:07 am
Gooner Girl wrote:
Tue Sep 21, 2021 10:48 pm
Not me, but girl twin is unimpressed by boy twin voting for her mate instead of her in the school class elections today. Tbf, she had poorly prepared and the other girl was probably more impressive in her speech but no family loyalty here it would seem! :lol:
Rather young for him to be setting his stall out, but fair play to you, Jack - get in there, son. :lol:
I’m hoping that one day, in the future, they may decide they actually like each other!

Jess could have offered free chocolate every day and Jack still wouldn’t have voted for her! 😂

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Re: Today I'm angry about.....

Post by BWFC_Insane » Thu Sep 23, 2021 10:15 am

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-58643437

This. Its heartbreaking. And shows that whatever is promised is ultimately just a lie.

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Re: Today I'm angry about.....

Post by Harry Genshaw » Thu Sep 23, 2021 12:13 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Thu Sep 23, 2021 10:15 am
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-58643437

This. Its heartbreaking. And shows that whatever is promised is ultimately just a lie.
Awful story for the young couple. I work in social housing and despite all the promises and provision of help, patience and support it ultimately comes down to the bottom line. Now lockdown is over, they'll all want their missing rent. Most reasonable landlords would usually work something out with a couple like that if there's been no problems previously and historically courts were reluctant to grant possession orders.

I felt for the private landlord owed 24 grand in rent arrears though. That debt isnt purely down to covid and lockdown.
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Re: Today I'm angry about.....

Post by Prufrock » Thu Sep 23, 2021 1:35 pm

Let me get out my tiny "private landlord" violin, though you'll probably need the world's most powerful microscope to see it.

It's marginally bigger than my "ripped off drug dealer" one.
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Re: Today I'm angry about.....

Post by BWFC_Insane » Thu Sep 23, 2021 1:36 pm

Harry Genshaw wrote:
Thu Sep 23, 2021 12:13 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Thu Sep 23, 2021 10:15 am
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-58643437

This. Its heartbreaking. And shows that whatever is promised is ultimately just a lie.
Awful story for the young couple. I work in social housing and despite all the promises and provision of help, patience and support it ultimately comes down to the bottom line. Now lockdown is over, they'll all want their missing rent. Most reasonable landlords would usually work something out with a couple like that if there's been no problems previously and historically courts were reluctant to grant possession orders.

I felt for the private landlord owed 24 grand in rent arrears though. That debt isnt purely down to covid and lockdown.
Last year, MPs on the Housing, Communities and Local Government committee recommended changes in the law to give judges discretion in deciding each individual case. The government chose to ignore the recommendation.
Courts don't have much discretion.

As for the £24000 one the rent was £1600 per month...so that's 15 months - sounds like Covid to me.

I don't have much sympathy I'm afraid for majority of landlords. If you're lucky enough to have guzzled up property during a boom - something that the generations behind us will never be able to do in the main then its your problem when the economy hits a major roadblock. Perhaps if we had fewer landlords charging exorbitant rates for substandard properties we'd have less of a housing crisis and maybe we'd have a more productive economy too?

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Re: Today I'm angry about.....

Post by Prufrock » Thu Sep 23, 2021 2:23 pm

There's an idea been knocking around which I tentatively like that individuals shouldn't be able to be private landlords (but companies could).

There just seems a massive conflict between non-home owners who can't afford to buy because prices are kept high and the individuals keeping them high looking for a return on savings.

I mean, right to own one house seems to me to clearly trump right to own two, but when it's people's main savings vehicle it's not a good situation.
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Re: Today I'm angry about.....

Post by BWFC_Insane » Thu Sep 23, 2021 2:46 pm

Prufrock wrote:
Thu Sep 23, 2021 2:23 pm
There's an idea been knocking around which I tentatively like that individuals shouldn't be able to be private landlords (but companies could).

There just seems a massive conflict between non-home owners who can't afford to buy because prices are kept high and the individuals keeping them high looking for a return on savings.

I mean, right to own one house seems to me to clearly trump right to own two, but when it's people's main savings vehicle it's not a good situation.
There is loads to unpack here but -

Not sure that solves the problem as private landlords could very easily register as companies (and many already do).

I know a few private landlords and fact is that their situations are all very different. But can break down into two broad groups (beyond the larger 'businesses' doing this).

1) Happened to just end up with a second property due to inheritance or they bought one for another purpose (kid at Uni, worked remotely etc etc) then didn't need it so decided to rent it out. Often these people are just renting to cover their costs and then will sell - and see it as a small investment. They generally aren't seeing this as some huge 'profit' making scenario.

2) People who have essentially decided to 'invest in property' borrowed to do so and now own multiple properties all looked after by agents and effectively their job is to sit at home and count the rental income. Its pretty much a scam in many cases. They've invested in property and got lucky and been able to just keep reinvesting. They were for decades encouraged to do this by program after program on TV about how great it is to own property. A couple of these people I know have never actually set foot in most of these flats/houses they own. They are almost always sold at auction are in city locations and usually sound dreadful. But they get tarted up rented out for an eye watering amount and usually the value of the property soars so the landlord just sit and wait all the while making a tidy profit on their borrowing and driving up the price of houses round them....

I have an issue with 2 - because essentially people were initially 'investing in property' for the high returns or the likely higher returns. That's fine but its a risky investment and what you don't need to do along the way is rip off tenants as you wait for your 'nest egg' to mature. And IF you have done that don't moan when the ceiling falls out and you're down on the deal. Because that's the nature of this. Just because everyone told you property is the 'way to go' doesn't mean you can assume its a sure fire thing. Then at the same time they are very quick to evict their tenants during any crisis and ship the next lot in with a nice price increase at the same time whilst the property gets older and worse to inhabit.

For me I'd simply put a cap on rent - and do it by area. An aggressive cap. And also change the rules around buy to let - too many people have thought this is a 'no fail plan' thanks to the 30 years where such behavior has been encouraged and endorsed by the mainstream media.
Last edited by BWFC_Insane on Thu Sep 23, 2021 3:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Today I'm angry about.....

Post by TANGODANCER » Thu Sep 23, 2021 3:06 pm

Without getting into the mechanics of the debate, it could begin with: "If all people were the same, thought and acted the same and held the same principals of right and wrong...etc". They aren't, don't and unfortunately never will. That's why solutions are somewhat hard to find.

Amen.. ae:)
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Re: Today I'm angry about.....

Post by Bruce Rioja » Thu Sep 23, 2021 3:15 pm

Prufrock wrote:
Thu Sep 23, 2021 2:23 pm
There's an idea been knocking around which I tentatively like that individuals shouldn't be able to be private landlords (but companies could).
My mum was a 'private landlord' in that she rented out my grandparents house after they passed away. It worked well for years until a bunch of hot-bedding tenants moved in and started ringing my mum in the middle of the night because they'd broke the boiler, sprang a leak etc.

Not sure my mum was the problem there.

Also, had she not been allowed to do that in the first place as an individual (as per your proposal) I'd quite simply have set a company up for her.
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Re: Today I'm angry about.....

Post by Worthy4England » Thu Sep 23, 2021 5:17 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Thu Sep 23, 2021 2:46 pm
Prufrock wrote:
Thu Sep 23, 2021 2:23 pm
There's an idea been knocking around which I tentatively like that individuals shouldn't be able to be private landlords (but companies could).

There just seems a massive conflict between non-home owners who can't afford to buy because prices are kept high and the individuals keeping them high looking for a return on savings.

I mean, right to own one house seems to me to clearly trump right to own two, but when it's people's main savings vehicle it's not a good situation.
There is loads to unpack here but -

Not sure that solves the problem as private landlords could very easily register as companies (and many already do).

I know a few private landlords and fact is that their situations are all very different. But can break down into two broad groups (beyond the larger 'businesses' doing this).

1) Happened to just end up with a second property due to inheritance or they bought one for another purpose (kid at Uni, worked remotely etc etc) then didn't need it so decided to rent it out. Often these people are just renting to cover their costs and then will sell - and see it as a small investment. They generally aren't seeing this as some huge 'profit' making scenario.

2) People who have essentially decided to 'invest in property' borrowed to do so and now own multiple properties all looked after by agents and effectively their job is to sit at home and count the rental income. Its pretty much a scam in many cases. They've invested in property and got lucky and been able to just keep reinvesting. They were for decades encouraged to do this by program after program on TV about how great it is to own property. A couple of these people I know have never actually set foot in most of these flats/houses they own. They are almost always sold at auction are in city locations and usually sound dreadful. But they get tarted up rented out for an eye watering amount and usually the value of the property soars so the landlord just sit and wait all the while making a tidy profit on their borrowing and driving up the price of houses round them....

I have an issue with 2 - because essentially people were initially 'investing in property' for the high returns or the likely higher returns. That's fine but its a risky investment and what you don't need to do along the way is rip off tenants as you wait for your 'nest egg' to mature. And IF you have done that don't moan when the ceiling falls out and you're down on the deal. Because that's the nature of this. Just because everyone told you property is the 'way to go' doesn't mean you can assume its a sure fire thing. Then at the same time they are very quick to evict their tenants during any crisis and ship the next lot in with a nice price increase at the same time whilst the property gets older and worse to inhabit.

For me I'd simply put a cap on rent - and do it by area. An aggressive cap. And also change the rules around buy to let - too many people have thought this is a 'no fail plan' thanks to the 30 years where such behavior has been encouraged and endorsed by the mainstream media.
Significant problem with lots of moving parts. The notion that "building 3m houses" and concreting over large swathes of land will not resolve it. It'll just make developers and investors richer. When the Government talk about affordable housing, they cheat at every level. Actually affordable to an individual on average earnings, there are probably less than 1% delivered. At planning permission stage they use figures like "25% will be affordable", then developers plead poverty (which doesn't stop them building the £500k Executive Homes) but the "affordable" ones get the chop as there's not enough margin in them.

They need to understand their own market economics, developers and landowners have no intention of flooding the market, hughe legal teams looking for loopholes and a million and one reasons why they can't deliver quick enough the types of homes needed in the locations they're required.

So they're trying to grab as much greenbelt as they need, which will still not deter them from pleading poverty and delivering the wrong houses in the wrong locations, but as long as they can flog them to investment vehicles - who gives a shit.

As for Pru's solution - there's nothing to stop an individual setting up as a business in the buy to let market as Insano says - it might actually have some benefits.

The revised NPPF was an absolute developers charter. No conflict of interest there - oh no sir. To spin Thatcher's quote back at the Conservative Party, what developers need is more stick and less carrot. They've actually put a formula forward that effectively says "if not enough houses built, ratchet up the number of houses that need to be built" - with the incumbency on local authorities to find the land for the additions. I mean what developer wouldn't see that as a huge opportunity for greenbelt / green land planning permission.

If this was non-Private housebuilding, they'd be screaming blue murder that it needed to be made private.

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Re: Today I'm angry about.....

Post by Prufrock » Thu Sep 23, 2021 6:26 pm

Housing is one area where I remain militant. Down with the landlords! I also think Homes Under the Hammer et al are a scourge on society and a boderline moral evil.

Re: setting up a company - I was typing quickly on my phone. Should have said they had tried to plan for that. Something like capital requirements, minimum number of properties etc meaning only commercially run businesses (and councils etc.) could let property

The tension here is between those who can't afford to buy a house so need house prices to come down, and those for whom buy to let is their main retirement asset who need house prices to stay high. They are two groups of people with directly competing interests, and who are significantly and importantly affected. The latter is different from a business who choose to buy to let commercially because in their case, if house prices crash and it goes tits up, it's just a failed business, such is life. For individuals (even if they set up a company) that could be their retirement down the Swanee.

To me, it's clear that the interests of those who can't afford one house should come above those who can afford several, but the effect on people's retirements should be mitigated where possible. Houses are far too expensive and something needs to be done. I don't think the suggestion would fix everything, but it would remove that tension above.

I understand there are people who sort of fall into it - but I think in the vast majority of cases the decision to let is a financial one because it makes sense vs selling at that time. I understand why people do it - but that's the problem. It keeps prices up. If they couldn't let, they'd have to sell at a lower price. I think that's fine. It's not ideal for them but you can't lower house prices and simultaneously keep them high.

I don't think rent controls work. They've been tried twice recently as far as I can see: San Francisco and Berlin, and didn't work either time.

This is of course only a side issue to the wider tension which is that lots of people can't afford to buy houses because they're too expensive, but lots of others have already bought them on massive mortgages and so can't afford for prices to come down. Good luck fixing that!

It's analogous to me to the issue with pensions and social care. You have a group of people who have unfairly benefited vs another group, but it isn't their fault. So what the hell do you do?!

Group 1 have managed to buy houses at inflated prices and the mortgages that go with it. It isn't their fault that the house-market has inflated so much, but it isn't the fault of the people now priced out. The least unfair thing to me seems to be to try to use policy levers to make housing more affordable, but in doing so Joe Smith in Group 1 now has a 300k mortgage on a 250k house. He lives there forever now. The alternative is Jane Jones never gets to own a house.

Group A have paid into the system for their entire lives to pay for their healthcare and social care when they get older. But they weren't expected to live as long as they do and so it costs far more than they paid in. The least unfair thing to me seems to be to use the assets they have accumulated over their lives to pay for the shortfall (with safeguards of course to make sure they don't become destitute), but in doing so Joe Smith Snr has to sell his house/his estate pays significantly more inheritance tax on it. The alternative is the next generations end up paying for their own healthcare/social care AND a big chunk of the generations before.
Last edited by Prufrock on Thu Sep 23, 2021 6:30 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Today I'm angry about.....

Post by BWFC_Insane » Thu Sep 23, 2021 6:29 pm

Worthy4England wrote:
Thu Sep 23, 2021 5:17 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Thu Sep 23, 2021 2:46 pm
Prufrock wrote:
Thu Sep 23, 2021 2:23 pm
There's an idea been knocking around which I tentatively like that individuals shouldn't be able to be private landlords (but companies could).

There just seems a massive conflict between non-home owners who can't afford to buy because prices are kept high and the individuals keeping them high looking for a return on savings.

I mean, right to own one house seems to me to clearly trump right to own two, but when it's people's main savings vehicle it's not a good situation.
There is loads to unpack here but -

Not sure that solves the problem as private landlords could very easily register as companies (and many already do).

I know a few private landlords and fact is that their situations are all very different. But can break down into two broad groups (beyond the larger 'businesses' doing this).

1) Happened to just end up with a second property due to inheritance or they bought one for another purpose (kid at Uni, worked remotely etc etc) then didn't need it so decided to rent it out. Often these people are just renting to cover their costs and then will sell - and see it as a small investment. They generally aren't seeing this as some huge 'profit' making scenario.

2) People who have essentially decided to 'invest in property' borrowed to do so and now own multiple properties all looked after by agents and effectively their job is to sit at home and count the rental income. Its pretty much a scam in many cases. They've invested in property and got lucky and been able to just keep reinvesting. They were for decades encouraged to do this by program after program on TV about how great it is to own property. A couple of these people I know have never actually set foot in most of these flats/houses they own. They are almost always sold at auction are in city locations and usually sound dreadful. But they get tarted up rented out for an eye watering amount and usually the value of the property soars so the landlord just sit and wait all the while making a tidy profit on their borrowing and driving up the price of houses round them....

I have an issue with 2 - because essentially people were initially 'investing in property' for the high returns or the likely higher returns. That's fine but its a risky investment and what you don't need to do along the way is rip off tenants as you wait for your 'nest egg' to mature. And IF you have done that don't moan when the ceiling falls out and you're down on the deal. Because that's the nature of this. Just because everyone told you property is the 'way to go' doesn't mean you can assume its a sure fire thing. Then at the same time they are very quick to evict their tenants during any crisis and ship the next lot in with a nice price increase at the same time whilst the property gets older and worse to inhabit.

For me I'd simply put a cap on rent - and do it by area. An aggressive cap. And also change the rules around buy to let - too many people have thought this is a 'no fail plan' thanks to the 30 years where such behavior has been encouraged and endorsed by the mainstream media.
Significant problem with lots of moving parts. The notion that "building 3m houses" and concreting over large swathes of land will not resolve it. It'll just make developers and investors richer. When the Government talk about affordable housing, they cheat at every level. Actually affordable to an individual on average earnings, there are probably less than 1% delivered. At planning permission stage they use figures like "25% will be affordable", then developers plead poverty (which doesn't stop them building the £500k Executive Homes) but the "affordable" ones get the chop as there's not enough margin in them.

They need to understand their own market economics, developers and landowners have no intention of flooding the market, hughe legal teams looking for loopholes and a million and one reasons why they can't deliver quick enough the types of homes needed in the locations they're required.

So they're trying to grab as much greenbelt as they need, which will still not deter them from pleading poverty and delivering the wrong houses in the wrong locations, but as long as they can flog them to investment vehicles - who gives a shit.

As for Pru's solution - there's nothing to stop an individual setting up as a business in the buy to let market as Insano says - it might actually have some benefits.

The revised NPPF was an absolute developers charter. No conflict of interest there - oh no sir. To spin Thatcher's quote back at the Conservative Party, what developers need is more stick and less carrot. They've actually put a formula forward that effectively says "if not enough houses built, ratchet up the number of houses that need to be built" - with the incumbency on local authorities to find the land for the additions. I mean what developer wouldn't see that as a huge opportunity for greenbelt / green land planning permission.

If this was non-Private housebuilding, they'd be screaming blue murder that it needed to be made private.
Absolutely all of this. Affordable housing but is it affordable for those that need it like say graduates? Is it heck. Not with the mortgages they have access to.

It’s an absolute joke as you have pointed out. Not to mention I know a few builders who don’t even do new builds anymore as they now make more money building extensions so people can just stay in their houses and continue to increase their value.

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Re: Today I'm angry about.....

Post by BWFC_Insane » Thu Sep 23, 2021 6:32 pm

Prufrock wrote:
Thu Sep 23, 2021 6:26 pm
Housing is one area where I remain militant.
I mean yes. But right now militancy is needed on so many fronts. The generations behind us are being royally screwed over in a way we’ve never seen before.

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Re: Today I'm angry about.....

Post by Prufrock » Thu Sep 23, 2021 6:50 pm

It's not the one behind me :D

Mortgage multipliers and deposits are insane as well. Especially in London. You might say well don't live in London then but I think it's good thing that some people under the age of 40 without millionaire parents can afford to buy their own house when working in the nation's capital.

*If* I could get a mortgage to buy a one-bed flat, the repayments would be about the same as I'm paying in rent now and have done for a decade. I can afford it. But I can't get the mortgage, and I can't afford the deposit. House prices in London went up 10% last year (not a normal year, but that's not miles out from other years). Trying to save for a £40k deposit is almost impossible when after 1 year you now need £44k.

And I have a well-paying secure job. Good f*cking luck if you have any intention of living here (IDK, let's say you grew up here) and you don't.

Down with landlords.
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Re: Today I'm angry about.....

Post by Worthy4England » Thu Sep 23, 2021 6:58 pm

Maybe if the council house sector hadn't been decimated, that segment of the market would be better supported. They could build as not for profit in the places they were needed for the people who needed them.

On the other side of the equation, the young aren't the only people paying for the old, all people working are - and I suspect quite a few of them on higher tax rates than an 18 year old on a zero hours contract. These things need assigning to the bin. People who have bought houses often stretched beyond their means, didn't have the life of riley and their asset was part of their investment planning. All that will occur is that people will look to protect their assets, using any means possible. Part of the problem comes with the way the arguments are presented. There isn't just a health and social care budget. They could bin off HS2, Trident and probably a shit load of other things...

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Re: Today I'm angry about.....

Post by Worthy4England » Thu Sep 23, 2021 7:01 pm

Prufrock wrote:
Thu Sep 23, 2021 6:50 pm
It's not the one behind me :D

Mortgage multipliers and deposits are insane as well. Especially in London. You might say well don't live in London then but I think it's good thing that some people under the age of 40 without millionaire parents can afford to buy their own house when working in the nation's capital.

*If* I could get a mortgage to buy a one-bed flat, the repayments would be about the same as I'm paying in rent now and have done for a decade. I can afford it. But I can't get the mortgage, and I can't afford the deposit. House prices in London went up 10% last year (not a normal year, but that's not miles out from other years). Trying to save for a £40k deposit is almost impossible when after 1 year you now need £44k.

And I have a well-paying secure job. Good f*cking luck if you have any intention of living here (IDK, let's say you grew up here) and you don't.

Down with landlords.
Told you before, Pru. Live in North, work in London. I couldn't afford anything in London in my 20's..so I lived in the YMCA.

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Re: Today I'm angry about.....

Post by Worthy4England » Thu Sep 23, 2021 7:13 pm

But to Pru's point :-) I'm fairly sure there are quite a lot of people paying more in rent than their mortgage payments would be, being effectively told they can't afford the repayments...that's batshit crazy...

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Re: Today I'm angry about.....

Post by BWFC_Insane » Thu Sep 23, 2021 9:16 pm

Worthy4England wrote:
Thu Sep 23, 2021 7:13 pm
But to Pru's point :-) I'm fairly sure there are quite a lot of people paying more in rent than their mortgage payments would be, being effectively told they can't afford the repayments...that's batshit crazy...
Loads. And then told they need a deposit larger than one year of their earnings. It’s mental. And don’t get me started on the social media boomers queuing up to say ‘eee lad when I woz 22 I didn’t eat for 5 years and had no clothes and that’s how I saved up for my house’. Yeah your house was relatively speaking 10 times cheaper at least. So yeah you made sacrifices that even if a graduate did ten times over today they couldn’t buy a house still.

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Re: Today I'm angry about.....

Post by Worthy4England » Thu Sep 23, 2021 10:31 pm

^^ You might want to look at that 10x number a bit closer. Great headline and might apply in middle of London. Doesn't apply in the NW....plenty of data on ave house prices v ave earnings. And to the folks that say this is the worst it's ever been, it's nowhere near as bad as the 1800's :-) Poor Houses, that put a roof over people's heads. :-)

The only time we've ever delivered significant market growth by volume is when councils we're doing it (not that they didn't build some right shite), but developers have no reason to flood the supply side, so they won't.

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