Today I'm happy about......

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thebish
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Re: Today I'm happy about......

Post by thebish » Wed Nov 25, 2015 11:45 pm

William the White wrote:
thebish wrote:
William the White wrote:
thebish wrote:
Worthy4England wrote:The judgement only considers schools with a non-religious character..seems like they missed this rather important bit out. As a parent, I have no qualms about some syllabus time being devoted to humanism, to help my children understand differing views. They'll ultimately make their own minds up.
me neither..

anyone care to outline the main things that children should be taught about humanism? Pru?
I think this might offer a start in our thinking. https://humanism.org.uk/humanism/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

and this: http://iheu.org/humanism/the-amsterdam-declaration/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

cool - it would only need 2 or 3 mins of curriculum time then! :-)
Well, you know, there are years of classes on religious education - so there'll be time to squeeze it in...
indeed - in 2 or 3 mins - I wouldn't begrudge them that!

I know it makes Pru happy - but personally I'd rather they taught kids maths and english - and science and languages and exposed them to a love of art and literature at school... call me mad! i'm not a huge big fan of religious studies in the first place - i think it's pretty much a waste of time in school whether or not you include "humanism"...
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Re: Today I'm happy about......

Post by TANGODANCER » Wed Nov 25, 2015 11:48 pm

William the White wrote:
TANGODANCER wrote:
William the White wrote:
To be replaced by secular schools in which religion is taught as an important subject - because of its important place in human society. Faith is different - this should be no business of the state and the state should not contribute to its teaching. The state should certainly uphold religious freedom, and parents should, if they wish, share their faith with their children and voluntary organisations, unfunded by the state, including churches, mosques and witches covens should have the right to practise and evangelise.
Fortunatley, or unfortunately, Will, as the case may be, the state is monarch ruled with the C of E the guiding star. Granted, it was different in my lifetime to now. We always had the choice, Catholics went to Catholic schools, Protestants to Protestant schools. It worked fine, St Joseph's, my school and church was surrounded by three protestant schools, St Thomas's, St Mathews and Brownlow Fold. Apart from snowball fights and a few lightweight championship of Halliwell and district bouts (once a blue moon) it all worked fine. I was frowned upon by the church for attending Bolton Technical College and we had to avoid assembly and prayers (which personally I found ridiculous as we worshipped the same God.) My own three children and three step childen were all Christened C of E and apart from Sunday School and what they were taught at school they were left to make up their minds. My eldest daughter went to Cannon Slade and Liverpol Uni where she got an English degree. She professes to be an Atheist. None of them ( to my regret) are church attenders, although my grandchildren have been Christened, but it's their choice. Like all else in life, people will find their own path, but without state funding, where would any of them be? If we now need to learn to be human, what have we been doing for the last couple of thousand years and why are we still having wars?
Y'know, Tango, that really doesn't look like a choice...
It was as much of an option as we needed as kids in the fact that we were happy to be Catholics and let our parents make the choices. Once a certain age was reached the choice was entirely your own. Be honest, Sunday church visits tailing off were as much to do with newy dicovered items like girls and hangovers as any real desire not to go. Over sixty years later I'm still happy to be a Catholic.. If I'm any sort of guide, most of us were quite content to follow our parents guidance and take no harm from it. Indeed, it was the way things were. I actually enjoyed being an altar boy. Most of my playmates at home were Protestant. We didn't even talk about it. I rarely visit church now, but Jesus said it wasn't necessary to be seen to pray. We also didn't have Atheism and Science trying to bully us away from our faith. If humanism is so understanding, it should accept that. Live and let live. You want to be a humanist, atheist, Dawkins devotee, goth, warlock or citizen of Klingon it's fine with me. Each to his/her own. :wink:
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Re: Today I'm happy about......

Post by Worthy4England » Wed Nov 25, 2015 11:51 pm

No Sir. If we're trusting to science, we can get rid of all that art n lit shite. It adds bugger all to our scientific understanding of anything. Let's take art as an example - You look at a picture - some folks see different things in it. It's a little bit like trying to find god. Shouldn't be sponsored by the state. Hard fact is what we need. :twisted:

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Re: Today I'm happy about......

Post by Hoboh » Thu Nov 26, 2015 12:04 am

Worthy4England wrote:No Sir. If we're trusting to science, we can get rid of all that art n lit shite. It adds bugger all to our scientific understanding of anything. Let's take art as an example - You look at a picture - some folks see different things in it. It's a little bit like trying to find god. Shouldn't be sponsored by the state. Hard fact is what we need. :twisted:
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Re: Today I'm happy about......

Post by bobo the clown » Thu Nov 26, 2015 8:07 am

Hoboh wrote:
Worthy4England wrote:No Sir. If we're trusting to science, we can get rid of all that art n lit shite. It adds bugger all to our scientific understanding of anything. Let's take art as an example - You look at a picture - some folks see different things in it. It's a little bit like trying to find god. Shouldn't be sponsored by the state. Hard fact is what we need. :twisted:
Miser!
There's now't wrong with a few pretty pictures
What about pictures of God ? Do they really exist ??
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Re: Today I'm happy about......

Post by William the White » Thu Nov 26, 2015 9:13 am

bobo the clown wrote:
Hoboh wrote:
Worthy4England wrote:No Sir. If we're trusting to science, we can get rid of all that art n lit shite. It adds bugger all to our scientific understanding of anything. Let's take art as an example - You look at a picture - some folks see different things in it. It's a little bit like trying to find god. Shouldn't be sponsored by the state. Hard fact is what we need. :twisted:
Miser!
There's now't wrong with a few pretty pictures
What about pictures of God ? Do they really exist ??
They do. On ceilings in chapels sometimes. I'm less than certain that they are accurate representations though.

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Re: Today I'm happy about......

Post by thebish » Thu Nov 26, 2015 9:18 am

William the White wrote:
bobo the clown wrote:
Hoboh wrote:
Worthy4England wrote:No Sir. If we're trusting to science, we can get rid of all that art n lit shite. It adds bugger all to our scientific understanding of anything. Let's take art as an example - You look at a picture - some folks see different things in it. It's a little bit like trying to find god. Shouldn't be sponsored by the state. Hard fact is what we need. :twisted:
Miser!
There's now't wrong with a few pretty pictures
What about pictures of God ? Do they really exist ??
They do. On ceilings in chapels sometimes. I'm less than certain that they are accurate representations though.
I'm there is more to art and pictures than "accurate representations" (whatever that means!) :wink:
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Re: Today I'm happy about......

Post by Worthy4England » Thu Nov 26, 2015 9:29 am

Well the point is rather this...

6. Humanism values artistic creativity and imagination and recognises the transforming power of art. Humanism affirms the importance of literature, music, and the visual and performing arts for personal development and fulfilment

All good so far - I see no problem there.

Then we come to the notion of religion/God and they get all scientific. No imagination, no creativity no transforming power. Sack that lot. We need proof. Hard evidence. Great so we'll stick rigidly to hard evidence when it suits us, but sack it off when it doesn't. Wonderful.

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Re: Today I'm happy about......

Post by William the White » Thu Nov 26, 2015 9:29 am

thebish wrote:
William the White wrote:
bobo the clown wrote:
Hoboh wrote:
Worthy4England wrote:No Sir. If we're trusting to science, we can get rid of all that art n lit shite. It adds bugger all to our scientific understanding of anything. Let's take art as an example - You look at a picture - some folks see different things in it. It's a little bit like trying to find god. Shouldn't be sponsored by the state. Hard fact is what we need. :twisted:
Miser!
There's now't wrong with a few pretty pictures
What about pictures of God ? Do they really exist ??
They do. On ceilings in chapels sometimes. I'm less than certain that they are accurate representations though.
I'm there is more to art and pictures than "accurate representations" (whatever that means!) :wink:
Good point, well made... Not sure if you've convinced Worthy or the clown though... :wink:

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Re: Today I'm happy about......

Post by thebish » Thu Nov 26, 2015 9:30 am

bobo the clown wrote:
Hoboh wrote:
Worthy4England wrote:No Sir. If we're trusting to science, we can get rid of all that art n lit shite. It adds bugger all to our scientific understanding of anything. Let's take art as an example - You look at a picture - some folks see different things in it. It's a little bit like trying to find god. Shouldn't be sponsored by the state. Hard fact is what we need. :twisted:
Miser!
There's now't wrong with a few pretty pictures
What about pictures of God ? Do they really exist ??
hmmm... humanism-inspired art and music> as it is a specific part of humanism's statement of faith - is there any? examples? There probably is - I'm now interested!

also - is there a space in humanism for deep things like LOVE and human frailty? It seems lacking from the statement of faith, odd that love would not get a mention given its centrality to human experience...

don't get me wrong - the statement is ace as it goes - it just lacks a bit of warmth...
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Re: Today I'm happy about......

Post by William the White » Thu Nov 26, 2015 9:31 am

thebish wrote:
bobo the clown wrote:
Hoboh wrote:
Worthy4England wrote:No Sir. If we're trusting to science, we can get rid of all that art n lit shite. It adds bugger all to our scientific understanding of anything. Let's take art as an example - You look at a picture - some folks see different things in it. It's a little bit like trying to find god. Shouldn't be sponsored by the state. Hard fact is what we need. :twisted:
Miser!
There's now't wrong with a few pretty pictures
What about pictures of God ? Do they really exist ??
hmmm... humanism-inspired art and music> as it is a specific part of humanism's statement of faith - is there any? examples? There probably is - I'm now interested!

also - is there a space in humanism for deep things like LOVE and human frailty? It seems lacking from the statement of faith, odd that love would not get a mention given its centrality to human experience...

don't get me wrong - the statement is ace as it goes - it just lacks a bit of warmth...
Humanists definitely love their mums, and apple pie...

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Re: Today I'm happy about......

Post by thebish » Thu Nov 26, 2015 9:32 am

Worthy4England wrote:Well the point is rather this...

6. Humanism values artistic creativity and imagination and recognises the transforming power of art. Humanism affirms the importance of literature, music, and the visual and performing arts for personal development and fulfilment

All good so far - I see no problem there.

Then we come to the notion of religion/God and they get all scientific. No imagination, no creativity no transforming power. Sack that lot. We need proof. Hard evidence. Great so we'll stick rigidly to hard evidence when it suits us, but sack it off when it doesn't. Wonderful.

that can't be right - cos humanism is not at all dogmatic... it says so! :wink:
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Re: Today I'm happy about......

Post by thebish » Thu Nov 26, 2015 9:33 am

William the White wrote:
thebish wrote:
bobo the clown wrote:
Hoboh wrote:
Worthy4England wrote:No Sir. If we're trusting to science, we can get rid of all that art n lit shite. It adds bugger all to our scientific understanding of anything. Let's take art as an example - You look at a picture - some folks see different things in it. It's a little bit like trying to find god. Shouldn't be sponsored by the state. Hard fact is what we need. :twisted:
Miser!
There's now't wrong with a few pretty pictures
What about pictures of God ? Do they really exist ??
hmmm... humanism-inspired art and music> as it is a specific part of humanism's statement of faith - is there any? examples? There probably is - I'm now interested!

also - is there a space in humanism for deep things like LOVE and human frailty? It seems lacking from the statement of faith, odd that love would not get a mention given its centrality to human experience...

don't get me wrong - the statement is ace as it goes - it just lacks a bit of warmth...
Humanists definitely love their mums, and apple pie...
yet they are strangely reluctant to say so... it can't be that important to them...
Some people are like Slinkies … not really good for anything, but you can’t help smiling when you see one tumble down the stairs.

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Re: Today I'm happy about......

Post by Worthy4England » Thu Nov 26, 2015 9:51 am

thebish wrote:
Worthy4England wrote:Well the point is rather this...

6. Humanism values artistic creativity and imagination and recognises the transforming power of art. Humanism affirms the importance of literature, music, and the visual and performing arts for personal development and fulfilment

All good so far - I see no problem there.

Then we come to the notion of religion/God and they get all scientific. No imagination, no creativity no transforming power. Sack that lot. We need proof. Hard evidence. Great so we'll stick rigidly to hard evidence when it suits us, but sack it off when it doesn't. Wonderful.

that can't be right - cos humanism is not at all dogmatic... it says so! :wink:
That's the badger, right there. I see that as a fairly fundamental flaw. We agree with all these fluffy concepts, expect on one point. This religion thing - you can't do that...Maybe we should call it "The One Commandment"...

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Re: Today I'm happy about......

Post by Prufrock » Thu Nov 26, 2015 10:41 am

Really?!

There's definitely evidence art exists. I've seen it.

And yes, humanism has lots to say on love and the like. I second WtW links as a start but it's not everything humanism has to say about anything!

Wholly disagree with thebish on the value of RE (though I'd change its focus to "cultural studies".) Firstly RE at school taught me stuff about different religions and cultures I'd never otherwise have known, the religions of my classmates etc. I think it's really useful for that. Secondly, you can't begin to teach anything about art and literature without knowledge of the religious and cultural context. A working knowledge of the bible (along with classics, I'd argue) is vital to understanding Shakespeare, for example. The same applies to the enlightenment and scientific and secular developments.
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Re: Today I'm happy about......

Post by Worthy4England » Thu Nov 26, 2015 10:56 am

So you believe love and the like exists - you can't see it...It's not consistent.

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Re: Today I'm happy about......

Post by thebish » Thu Nov 26, 2015 10:58 am

Prufrock wrote:Really?!

There's definitely evidence art exists. I've seen it.

And yes, humanism has lots to say on love and the like.

such as...? which of those ideas about love and human frailty that are specifically humanist do you think should be taught to children as part of the curriculum?

as for RE in school...

yeah - there is lots that is useful to know... budgetting... how mortgages work... gender politics... how the UK democratic system works... nutrition... exercise... endless demands are made by various pressure groups for time to be carved out of the curriculum... having had three children go through all the levels of the UK state school system - my personal reflection is their time at school was best spent on learning how to read, write, do maths and science and learn how express themselves and analyse ideas.

As for RE, I just don't think that you can really learn anything much useful about any particular "religion" in the time available in the school curriculum. if you have read about the "5 K's" and visited a Gurdwara - it doesn't mean you know anything much worth knowing about Sikhism. religion is a lived experience within a community - not a learned series of facts or visits to buildings...

of course - more knowledge is helpful - but when there is tons of other useful stuff to learn
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Re: Today I'm happy about......

Post by thebish » Thu Nov 26, 2015 11:01 am

also - it is perfectly possible to teach art without an understanding of the bible or the classics.

I think you might be thinking of the teaching of "art history"...

teach kids the techniques - they will explore the subject matter for themselves...
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Re: Today I'm happy about......

Post by TANGODANCER » Thu Nov 26, 2015 11:54 am

On the question of what God looked like, only representation is ever, or can be, offered. In junior school I thought he would look like Sir Galahad. :oops:

On what Jesus looked like, this is interesting despite its Daily Mail source. Then again, there is always the Turin Shroud, of course. :wink:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... books.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Today I'm happy about......

Post by thebish » Thu Nov 26, 2015 12:02 pm

I suspect that God doesn't "look" like anything... I suspect God is not the kind of "thing" that can be "seen".
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