creeeeeeeekeeeeeet

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Re: creeeeeeeekeeeeeet

Post by BWFC_Insane » Mon Sep 09, 2019 10:58 am

TANGODANCER wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 10:31 am
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 9:42 am

A draw was IMO never attainable. Unless the weather helped.

They had 13/14 overs left.

Our supposed best batter in Root averaged 30 in the series.

The failings in our side need to be addressed. You won't win test matches when your top order are averaging in the teens or at best 30. You need players to average 40 plus. Its not rocket science.
If Root and Stokes had managed to make fifty between them (and the time it took to do it, because let's face it,it wasn't about scoring yesterday) we could probably have held out for the draw well enough.) That isn't rocket science either, especially after losing two wickets so quickly. Let's hope we can salvage a bit of pride by winning the last test.
I don't think we were batting yesterday out with 8 wickets in hand - one way or another they were going to get those wickets unless weather intervened. Its so rare nowadays to survive in those scenarios.

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Re: creeeeeeeekeeeeeet

Post by Dujon » Tue Sep 10, 2019 6:54 am

taddyontoast wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 10:54 am



It's not rocket science - it's Geoffrey Boycott! :wink:
Sir Geoffrey Boycott innit. :)

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Re: creeeeeeeekeeeeeet

Post by TANGODANCER » Tue Sep 10, 2019 9:13 am

Dujon wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 6:54 am
taddyontoast wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 10:54 am



It's not rocket science - it's Geoffrey Boycott! :wink:
Sir Geoffrey Boycott innit. :)
One we have to take on the chin Dujon. Joe Root's imitation of the Boycott text-book
"forward defensive stroke" got him out for a duck. An imitation of a Stokes wallop wouldn't have been any worse and he might not have been out. Que sera. :?
The wisest and the best of men, nay, the wisest and best of their actions, may be rendered ridiculous by a person whose first object in life is a joke...Darcy. Pride and Prejudice.

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Re: creeeeeeeekeeeeeet

Post by taddyontoast » Tue Sep 10, 2019 9:26 am

Dujon wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 6:54 am
taddyontoast wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 10:54 am



It's not rocket science - it's Geoffrey Boycott! :wink:
Sir Geoffrey Boycott innit. :)

He has a conviction for domestic abuse about which he is totally unrepentant and still casts himself as the victim. You won't catch me addressing him as "sir". (I'm sure he'll be devastated by my boycott!)

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Re: creeeeeeeekeeeeeet

Post by Harry Genshaw » Tue Sep 10, 2019 10:29 am

taddyontoast wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 9:26 am
Dujon wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 6:54 am
taddyontoast wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 10:54 am



It's not rocket science - it's Geoffrey Boycott! :wink:
Sir Geoffrey Boycott innit. :)

He has a conviction for domestic abuse about which he is totally unrepentant and still casts himself as the victim. You won't catch me addressing him as "sir". (I'm sure he'll be devastated by my boycott!)
That conviction was in the French courts wasn't it? Memorable for Boycott complaining in the middle of the hearing that " everyone was talking in French" :D
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Re: creeeeeeeekeeeeeet

Post by Prufrock » Tue Sep 10, 2019 10:39 am

taddyontoast wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 9:26 am
Dujon wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 6:54 am
taddyontoast wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 10:54 am



It's not rocket science - it's Geoffrey Boycott! :wink:
Sir Geoffrey Boycott innit. :)

He has a conviction for domestic abuse about which he is totally unrepentant and still casts himself as the victim. You won't catch me addressing him as "sir". (I'm sure he'll be devastated by my boycott!)
You as a mere mortal may think that's why he has never had one before, but according to the man himself, don't forget, he would've got one if he'd blacked up.
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Re: creeeeeeeekeeeeeet

Post by Hoboh » Tue Sep 10, 2019 10:45 am

TANGODANCER wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 9:13 am
Dujon wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 6:54 am
taddyontoast wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 10:54 am



It's not rocket science - it's Geoffrey Boycott! :wink:
Sir Geoffrey Boycott innit. :)
One we have to take on the chin Dujon. Joe Root's imitation of the Boycott text-book
"forward defensive stroke" got him out for a duck. An imitation of a Stokes wallop wouldn't have been any worse and he might not have been out. Que sera. :?
Would have been better doing an Atherton actually Tango.

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Re: creeeeeeeekeeeeeet

Post by taddyontoast » Tue Sep 10, 2019 11:17 am

Harry Genshaw wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 10:29 am

That conviction was in the French courts wasn't it? Memorable for Boycott complaining in the middle of the hearing that " everyone was talking in French" :D

yup - the crafty buggers!

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Re: creeeeeeeekeeeeeet

Post by jimbo » Thu Sep 12, 2019 8:50 am

Interesting game for England today. It has a definite end of an era feel to it. We seem to exist on Ashes cycles, and it’s also Bayliss’ last game in charge. My main gripe with this team is that they’ve shown the same failings continually - spineless batting, giving wickets away, and a lack of variety in the bowling. There are a lot of players who seemingly haven’t developed or lived up to potential.

As a result I’d like to see some big changes going forward for the new coach to build a new hungry side who can develop together over the next couple of years.

Out go Denly, Bairstow, Buttler from the batting. None of them give me any confidence they’ll go on to be players who can average 40 consistently going forwards.

From the bowling there’s an argument to move on from Anderson. I love him, but he’s 37 now and will be returning for a handful of tests at best - why not let someone younger play and develop in those games instead?

Going forwards I’d like to see a team of:

Burns
Sibley
?crawley
Root
Stokes
Pope
Folkes
Woakes
Curran
Leach
Archer
I was saying Boo-urns

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Re: creeeeeeeekeeeeeet

Post by BWFC_Insane » Thu Sep 12, 2019 9:17 am

jimbo wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 8:50 am
Interesting game for England today. It has a definite end of an era feel to it. We seem to exist on Ashes cycles, and it’s also Bayliss’ last game in charge. My main gripe with this team is that they’ve shown the same failings continually - spineless batting, giving wickets away, and a lack of variety in the bowling. There are a lot of players who seemingly haven’t developed or lived up to potential.

As a result I’d like to see some big changes going forward for the new coach to build a new hungry side who can develop together over the next couple of years.

Out go Denly, Bairstow, Buttler from the batting. None of them give me any confidence they’ll go on to be players who can average 40 consistently going forwards.

From the bowling there’s an argument to move on from Anderson. I love him, but he’s 37 now and will be returning for a handful of tests at best - why not let someone younger play and develop in those games instead?

Going forwards I’d like to see a team of:

Burns
Sibley
?crawley
Root
Stokes
Pope
Folkes
Woakes
Curran
Leach
Archer
Hmm. I definitely think one of Buttler or Bairstow can be retained. Bairstow at times has looked a good test player and Buttler for me is a natural talent - he resisted well in the last test. Buttler especially looks mentally tired from the WC. But I'd not be throwing them both out.

The issue isn't the middle order - its the top 4. Including Root who all have failed this series. If none of your top 4 make runs consistently you will lose more than you win - and it gives your middle order little chance.

Stokes also needs to bat at 3 - he should not be bowled anymore as his bowling is erratic and if we're honest not really test standard. Leach is not a test quality spinner. Broad surely plays.

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Re: creeeeeeeekeeeeeet

Post by jimbo » Thu Sep 12, 2019 9:39 am

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 9:17 am
jimbo wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 8:50 am
Interesting game for England today. It has a definite end of an era feel to it. We seem to exist on Ashes cycles, and it’s also Bayliss’ last game in charge. My main gripe with this team is that they’ve shown the same failings continually - spineless batting, giving wickets away, and a lack of variety in the bowling. There are a lot of players who seemingly haven’t developed or lived up to potential.

As a result I’d like to see some big changes going forward for the new coach to build a new hungry side who can develop together over the next couple of years.

Out go Denly, Bairstow, Buttler from the batting. None of them give me any confidence they’ll go on to be players who can average 40 consistently going forwards.

From the bowling there’s an argument to move on from Anderson. I love him, but he’s 37 now and will be returning for a handful of tests at best - why not let someone younger play and develop in those games instead?

Going forwards I’d like to see a team of:

Burns
Sibley
?crawley
Root
Stokes
Pope
Folkes
Woakes
Curran
Leach
Archer
Hmm. I definitely think one of Buttler or Bairstow can be retained. Bairstow at times has looked a good test player and Buttler for me is a natural talent - he resisted well in the last test. Buttler especially looks mentally tired from the WC. But I'd not be throwing them both out.

The issue isn't the middle order - its the top 4. Including Root who all have failed this series. If none of your top 4 make runs consistently you will lose more than you win - and it gives your middle order little chance.

Stokes also needs to bat at 3 - he should not be bowled anymore as his bowling is erratic and if we're honest not really test standard. Leach is not a test quality spinner. Broad surely plays.
My thoughts were really about building a team for 2 years time, at which point I don’t see Broad or Anderson still being around. If we keep picking the same players, we’ll keep seeing the same results.

I like Buttler and Bairstow as cricketers but both have underachieved for a long time, and I don’t see anything to suggest either can magically turn it around. Bairstow had one good year, and has averaged 20 for the last 18 months. He’s not the best keeper either. Let Foakes have a go. Buttler has one hundred in 30odd tests, and is playing as a specialist batsman at 7 averaging 20 this year. His lifetime FC average is low 30s - again as good as he is at the white ball game I don’t see how he can be expected to turn into a prolific test batsman.

Leach, id like to see a little more of for now.
I was saying Boo-urns

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Re: creeeeeeeekeeeeeet

Post by BWFC_Insane » Thu Sep 12, 2019 10:05 am

jimbo wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 9:39 am
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 9:17 am
jimbo wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 8:50 am
Interesting game for England today. It has a definite end of an era feel to it. We seem to exist on Ashes cycles, and it’s also Bayliss’ last game in charge. My main gripe with this team is that they’ve shown the same failings continually - spineless batting, giving wickets away, and a lack of variety in the bowling. There are a lot of players who seemingly haven’t developed or lived up to potential.

As a result I’d like to see some big changes going forward for the new coach to build a new hungry side who can develop together over the next couple of years.

Out go Denly, Bairstow, Buttler from the batting. None of them give me any confidence they’ll go on to be players who can average 40 consistently going forwards.

From the bowling there’s an argument to move on from Anderson. I love him, but he’s 37 now and will be returning for a handful of tests at best - why not let someone younger play and develop in those games instead?

Going forwards I’d like to see a team of:

Burns
Sibley
?crawley
Root
Stokes
Pope
Folkes
Woakes
Curran
Leach
Archer
Hmm. I definitely think one of Buttler or Bairstow can be retained. Bairstow at times has looked a good test player and Buttler for me is a natural talent - he resisted well in the last test. Buttler especially looks mentally tired from the WC. But I'd not be throwing them both out.

The issue isn't the middle order - its the top 4. Including Root who all have failed this series. If none of your top 4 make runs consistently you will lose more than you win - and it gives your middle order little chance.

Stokes also needs to bat at 3 - he should not be bowled anymore as his bowling is erratic and if we're honest not really test standard. Leach is not a test quality spinner. Broad surely plays.
My thoughts were really about building a team for 2 years time, at which point I don’t see Broad or Anderson still being around. If we keep picking the same players, we’ll keep seeing the same results.

I like Buttler and Bairstow as cricketers but both have underachieved for a long time, and I don’t see anything to suggest either can magically turn it around. Bairstow had one good year, and has averaged 20 for the last 18 months. He’s not the best keeper either. Let Foakes have a go. Buttler has one hundred in 30odd tests, and is playing as a specialist batsman at 7 averaging 20 this year. His lifetime FC average is low 30s - again as good as he is at the white ball game I don’t see how he can be expected to turn into a prolific test batsman.

Leach, id like to see a little more of for now.
The problem is that both Crawley and Sibley average sub 40 in first class cricket - Bairstow averages 44.

Sub-40 averages don't translate well in the test game top order generally.

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Re: creeeeeeeekeeeeeet

Post by jimbo » Thu Sep 12, 2019 10:20 am

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 10:05 am
jimbo wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 9:39 am
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 9:17 am
jimbo wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 8:50 am
Interesting game for England today. It has a definite end of an era feel to it. We seem to exist on Ashes cycles, and it’s also Bayliss’ last game in charge. My main gripe with this team is that they’ve shown the same failings continually - spineless batting, giving wickets away, and a lack of variety in the bowling. There are a lot of players who seemingly haven’t developed or lived up to potential.

As a result I’d like to see some big changes going forward for the new coach to build a new hungry side who can develop together over the next couple of years.

Out go Denly, Bairstow, Buttler from the batting. None of them give me any confidence they’ll go on to be players who can average 40 consistently going forwards.

From the bowling there’s an argument to move on from Anderson. I love him, but he’s 37 now and will be returning for a handful of tests at best - why not let someone younger play and develop in those games instead?

Going forwards I’d like to see a team of:

Burns
Sibley
?crawley
Root
Stokes
Pope
Folkes
Woakes
Curran
Leach
Archer
Hmm. I definitely think one of Buttler or Bairstow can be retained. Bairstow at times has looked a good test player and Buttler for me is a natural talent - he resisted well in the last test. Buttler especially looks mentally tired from the WC. But I'd not be throwing them both out.

The issue isn't the middle order - its the top 4. Including Root who all have failed this series. If none of your top 4 make runs consistently you will lose more than you win - and it gives your middle order little chance.

Stokes also needs to bat at 3 - he should not be bowled anymore as his bowling is erratic and if we're honest not really test standard. Leach is not a test quality spinner. Broad surely plays.
My thoughts were really about building a team for 2 years time, at which point I don’t see Broad or Anderson still being around. If we keep picking the same players, we’ll keep seeing the same results.

I like Buttler and Bairstow as cricketers but both have underachieved for a long time, and I don’t see anything to suggest either can magically turn it around. Bairstow had one good year, and has averaged 20 for the last 18 months. He’s not the best keeper either. Let Foakes have a go. Buttler has one hundred in 30odd tests, and is playing as a specialist batsman at 7 averaging 20 this year. His lifetime FC average is low 30s - again as good as he is at the white ball game I don’t see how he can be expected to turn into a prolific test batsman.

Leach, id like to see a little more of for now.
The problem is that both Crawley and Sibley average sub 40 in first class cricket - Bairstow averages 44.

Sub-40 averages don't translate well in the test game top order generally.
Trescothick and Vaughan both had modest FC records before being called up, but the selectors recognised features of their game that they felt could cope with test cricket.

The thing I like about sibley is his concentration - he’s scored 2 big double hundreds and has a SR in the 40s. I think that temperament should give him a good chance of succeeding.

Crawley had a question mark beside him and I’d be happy with altternative suggestions. He seems promising when I’ve seen him though, again good temperament.

I think the focus should now be aiming to have a good team in 2 years, and I think the players I’ve mentioned have more chance of being good test players than the ones I’m leaving out who’ve underachieved for so long without showing any signs of progress. We’ve got a new coach coming in, let’s build a new team.

Edit: I’ve just checked and both Trescothick and Vaughan averaged more in test than championship cricket. Vaughan’s FC average was only 36!
I was saying Boo-urns

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Re: creeeeeeeekeeeeeet

Post by jimbo » Thu Sep 12, 2019 11:41 am

jimbo wrote:
Sat Sep 07, 2019 6:52 pm
jimbo wrote:
Thu Sep 05, 2019 7:01 pm
jimbo wrote:
Wed Sep 04, 2019 11:11 am
Fun fact update: we’re now 13 opening partnerships into this series and the highest remains 22. Not a good time to be an opener.
Make that 14.
16.

Truly a dreadful series to be an opener. Does my original flippant idea of opening with a stoic tail ender carry any more weight now?
We have a new record opening partnership for the series! Congratulations to Rory Burns and Joe Denly for racking up an imposing 27! :pissed:
I was saying Boo-urns

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Re: creeeeeeeekeeeeeet

Post by taddyontoast » Thu Sep 12, 2019 11:59 am

Denley's wicket - totally my fault...

turned on cricket - heard that we were 27-0... thought to myself - phew, that sounds OK... next ball, Denley's gone!

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Re: creeeeeeeekeeeeeet

Post by TANGODANCER » Thu Sep 12, 2019 12:04 pm

jimbo wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 10:20 am

I think the focus should now be aiming to have a good team in 2 years, and I think the players I’ve mentioned have more chance of being good test players than the ones I’m leaving out who’ve underachieved for so long without showing any signs of progress. We’ve got a new coach coming in, let’s build a new team.
All very fine if the rest of the cricketing world stands still Jimbo. It won't and we'll still just do the best we can and time will come when Britain is fully found out by sheer numbers amongst the opposition and lose test matches against China, Japan and Korea.. We have territorial numbers from the Berwick to Gretna border line down to King Arthur land,(minus Wales) whilst teams like he Aussies have all the land a herd of kangaroos can leap about in from Darwin To Melbourne and twice that east to west as the map crow flies. We're small potatoes in any international sport (for years we took on and lost Ryder Cups to America ( a country taking on a continent) till England became Europe and sort of balanced the scale a bit. ("Just give me ten (eleven) who are stout-hearted men and I'll soon give you ten thousand more!"...as the song goes ) In short, divine rights stops outside the church doors. Bat on... :)
The wisest and the best of men, nay, the wisest and best of their actions, may be rendered ridiculous by a person whose first object in life is a joke...Darcy. Pride and Prejudice.

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Re: creeeeeeeekeeeeeet

Post by taddyontoast » Thu Sep 12, 2019 12:48 pm

TANGODANCER wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 12:04 pm

All very fine if the rest of the cricketing world stands still Jimbo. It won't and we'll still just do the best we can and time will come when Britain is fully found out by sheer numbers amongst the opposition and lose test matches against China, Japan and Korea.. We have territorial numbers from the Berwick to Gretna border line down to King Arthur land,(minus Wales) whilst teams like he Aussies have all the land a herd of kangaroos can leap about in from Darwin To Melbourne and twice that east to west as the map crow flies. We're small potatoes in any international sport (for years we took on and lost Ryder Cups to America ( a country taking on a continent) till England became Europe and sort of balanced the scale a bit. ("Just give me ten (eleven) who are stout-hearted men and I'll soon give you ten thousand more!"...as the song goes ) In short, divine rights stops outside the church doors. Bat on... :)

^

I'll have some of whatever he's on! :pissed:

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Re: creeeeeeeekeeeeeet

Post by taddyontoast » Thu Sep 12, 2019 12:53 pm

ha! Root dropped twice in 5mins! :-)

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Re: creeeeeeeekeeeeeet

Post by jimbo » Thu Sep 12, 2019 12:53 pm

TANGODANCER wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 12:04 pm
jimbo wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 10:20 am

I think the focus should now be aiming to have a good team in 2 years, and I think the players I’ve mentioned have more chance of being good test players than the ones I’m leaving out who’ve underachieved for so long without showing any signs of progress. We’ve got a new coach coming in, let’s build a new team.
All very fine if the rest of the cricketing world stands still Jimbo. It won't and we'll still just do the best we can and time will come when Britain is fully found out by sheer numbers amongst the opposition and lose test matches against China, Japan and Korea.. We have territorial numbers from the Berwick to Gretna border line down to King Arthur land,(minus Wales) whilst teams like he Aussies have all the land a herd of kangaroos can leap about in from Darwin To Melbourne and twice that east to west as the map crow flies. We're small potatoes in any international sport (for years we took on and lost Ryder Cups to America ( a country taking on a continent) till England became Europe and sort of balanced the scale a bit. ("Just give me ten (eleven) who are stout-hearted men and I'll soon give you ten thousand more!"...as the song goes ) In short, divine rights stops outside the church doors. Bat on... :)
I think you’ve missed my point somewhat. I’m saying we shouldn’t simply stick with what we’ve got now as they’ve underachieved time and time again again, and probably will continue to do so. I think there’d be more benefit to backing a talented group of young players who over a 2 year period with some experience might go on to be far better players than what we’ve got now. It might not work out but at least we’ll have given it a go. There’s a new coach coming in and we’re at the end of an Ashes series, so it feels like a good time to start a new era.
I was saying Boo-urns

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Re: creeeeeeeekeeeeeet

Post by Prufrock » Thu Sep 12, 2019 1:04 pm

I'm somewhere in the middle. Anyone young who looks like they've earned a shot should be in. Sibley, Pope and Curran should all tour and play. Wouldn't be dropping the good performers yet unless we have to though, we haven't got enough!

I think BWFCi is harsh on Stokes bowling, but it does seem obvious his batting is far more important to us than his bowling atm.

Then, do we try to find a proper no.3, then go Root, Pope, Stokes, Wk, Curran, bowlers. Do you try to mould Pope into a 3? Play Stokes there? Or do you bump everyone one and fit another middle order (Roy, Buttler, Bairstow if Foakes is keeping)?

Tough. And Christ knows where we get a spinner from.
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