creeeeeeeekeeeeeet

[Worthy4England]

You'll like this one Jimbo. Discussing the noble sport with a chap who played in the same team as me 100 years back, he asked what I thought of Hartley. Long time since I watched a County game so I went with your "not as good as Parkinson" line...as I watch his wicket tally increase in the final innings!

[Worthy4England]

Remarkable.

[BWFC_Insane]

Englands best test win in the last decade? Definitely.

Last two?

Ever?

An absolutely unbelievable result. India have barely lost a test at home.

[Abdoulaye's Twin]

WTAF

[Worthy4England]

I think the hyperbole machine might have accidentally hit the overdrive button. We managed a 230 run victory against them last series, when we were shit* it's a good win.

[BWFC_Insane]

I think the hyperbole machine might have accidentally hit the overdrive button. We managed a 230 run victory against them last series, when we were shit* it's a good win.

Not on a turning wicket and with 190 run deficit. India only lost three tests at home in last 14 years before this. And indeed this is the second biggest 1st innings lead they’ve lost a test from.

Vaughan - not known for hyperbole is talking about this in terms of ‘greatest ever’. Not sure I’d go that far but it’s up there for sure.

[Worthy4England]

Yes, I have no doubt, that it's a very good win. Of course last time out we didn't have a 190 defect. That's coz we hit nearly 600, with a double ton from Rooty. Point I'm making is the fact we hit nearly 600 shouldn't detract from how good a win it was. The turning wicket malarkey, you're allowed to bowl spin in test cricket!

[TANGODANCER]

Been watching and hoping. Couldn't believe this result. Staggering . Well done the lads.

[BWFC_Insane]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/68123032

Jim Maxwell no doubt will be upset.

[Worthy4England]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/68123032

Jim Maxwell no doubt will be upset.

I've said I have no gripe with it being one of the best ever turn around wins. It is, deservedly so.

So not upset But depends on how you view the question. Was it one of the best comebacks of all time, away, in a country where many sides struggle - yes. Might it have been the best of that collection of possibilities - maybe, they note that Botham's Aussie turn around was where we were 227 runs adrift - sure it was a home test, but where the series was at the time, didn't seem anymore likely than turning over 190 in India. There are others such as the mammoth 291 run deficit, the Aussies turned around in 1992. So best ever? It's in the list on it's own merits. Whilst we talked about the paucity of our spinners in the first innings, they were also somewhat weakened with Kholi and Pant not being available.

That said, the question you asked was different - Was it the best win (of any description) in the last 10 years, 20 years or ever? And for that, I don't think you can just exclude wins where there wasn't a first innings deficit. So the 200 run win from last series in India would count one of that number - was Rooty's 200 and odd any worse than Pope's? Dunno how I'd split them. The heroics by Stokesy and Jack Leech in 2019 and a lot of other "wins we might not have expected" but were also hailed at the time as being at least half decent.

[BWFC_Insane]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/68123032

Jim Maxwell no doubt will be upset.

I've said I have no gripe with it being one of the best ever turn around wins. It is, deservedly so.

So not upset But depends on how you view the question. Was it one of the best comebacks of all time, away, in a country where many sides struggle - yes. Might it have been the best of that collection of possibilities - maybe, they note that Botham's Aussie turn around was where we were 227 runs adrift - sure it was a home test, but where the series was at the time, didn't seem anymore likely than turning over 190 in India. There are others such as the mammoth 291 run deficit, the Aussies turned around in 1992. So best ever? It's in the list on it's own merits. Whilst we talked about the paucity of our spinners in the first innings, they were also somewhat weakened with Kholi and Pant not being available.

That said, the question you asked was different - Was it the best win (of any description) in the last 10 years, 20 years or ever? And for that, I don't think you can just exclude wins where there wasn't a first innings deficit. So the 200 run win from last series in India would count one of that number - was Rooty's 200 and odd any worse than Pope's? Dunno how I'd split them. The heroics by Stokesy and Jack Leech in 2019 and a lot of other "wins we might not have expected" but were also hailed at the time as being at least half decent.

I was referring to the effusive praise for McCullum's approach following Maxwell at end of day two tweeting about 'Bazbollocks'.

Clearly it has really gotten under his skin!

[Worthy4England]

Ahh I see. I think the "benefits" of "Bazbollocks" are pretty clear. Even if within that you end up suffering for the first half of a match - it's a bit like us saying how great/shit we are after 45 minutes - I couldn't see what he tweeted at the end of day 2 - apols!

[BWFC_Insane]

Ahh I see. I think the "benefits" of "Bazbollocks" are pretty clear. Even if within that you end up suffering for the first half of a match - it's a bit like us saying how great/shit we are after 45 minutes - I couldn't see what he tweeted at the end of day 2 - apols!

Yeah he was incredibly bitter about it during the Ashes too and seemingly couldn’t wait to tweet something when like most he thought we were getting thumped. It’s like these people haven’t realised that all McCullum is doing is allowing players to play how they want without fear of the drop. Like it’s probably pointless trying to turn a kid who has grown up playing loads of T20 into the next Geoffrey ‘my nan could have defended that wi a stick o rhubarb’ Boycott. Let them play the game they want and do don’t chuck em out if they fail a few times.

That coupled with ‘play to win not draw’. Is about the extent of what McCullum is doing. Thats not to diminish it. It takes skill and vision and charisma to bring it together.

But yeah Maxwell seems very bitter about it. Dont really get why as with test cricket in the doldrums and financially in a mess in most countries - making it more entertaining is surely a big win.

[Worthy4England]

Yeah - as I said, this last test was probably not a wicket where you were trying to force 6-8 an over. Which in itself is different (obvs we'd have had it if it was readily there to take) But TBF, many of us (myself and yourself included ) have on occasion pointed that something isn't working on specific occasions, when it suits us, when the final result isn't yet known. Those first couple of Aussie tests, we WERE getting thumped, it's not unreasonable to point that out, without necessarily demanding some sort fundamental change of direction.

We both had comments in the first innings. I was critical of the batting, you were critical of the bowling, but certainly in my case I wasn't suggesting mass sackings or an overall dramatic change, just that some of the batsmen might have preferred to deal with the ball that led to their demise, a bit differently, if they had their time again.

I doubt most folks are suggesting that Stokes/McCullum should be sacked. For me, the test of how transportable Bazball is, will probably be defined over the course of India away, and the Ashes away, (albeit I noticed WI managed to collapse the Aussies in the week too). I only say this, not to throw it out, but to tweak where necessary to the prevailing conditions. It's likely easier to motor at 6/8 an over on a wicket that's broadly supportive of the way we bat at home, than one in India where they're prepping wickets to their spin advantage and in Aus where they'll have a bit more pace in them to suit their attack.

Either way enjoying the ride.

[BWFC_Insane]

Yeah but I don’t think Bazball is about going 8 an over regardless. It’s playing how players feel most comfortable and being positive in what we do.

I think that’s fair. If we can hit 6 an over and conditions allow it then do it. But we certainly couldn’t in the last test and as you say what we did was bat at 4 an over but with positive intent.

I think there will be times we make wrong judgements but generally I think he’s transformed us with stokes. We were utterly hapless before. Now we are an incredible watch.

[jimbo]

Happy to admit Hartley proved me wrong. Interesting article from Atherton today about the data available to selectors now and how that will help them identify key attributes for players to succeed in specific conditions. Apparently Hartley has long been considered an option for Indian tours due to his height and pace, despite only averaging 44 with the ball in the Championship last season.

https://x.com/athersmike/status/1752527 ... QjO6FS9IGA

[Worthy4England]

Seems reasonable. I mean you'd have never picked him off averages, unless your name was Dad.

[BWFC_Insane]

Again I think England have done admirably considering the attack we have available and that India won the toss. 6 wickets down is no mean feat in these conditions.

Clearly going to be even tougher than the first test was for us (and that was tough) but at least we are competing.

[Worthy4England]

Again I think England have done admirably considering the attack we have available and that India won the toss. 6 wickets down is no mean feat in these conditions.

Clearly going to be even tougher than the first test was for us (and that was tough) but at least we are competing.

I think they're always pretty difficult to judge after one incomplete innings, unless you've bowled noticeable dog dirt. If you're them you're probably telling yourself 336 with maybe a push to 400, is always a decent total on tracks where you think you might have the upper hand bowling. Obvs, how we set about the reply will add further flavour.

What I would say, a bit like our second innings in the first test, there's a one man hero with the bat, and none of the others have got above 34, thus far, which suggests that it's maybe par 300-340 and they're at that, with 4 in the bag.

This is a bit of a pattern from first test - Eng 1st - Stokes 70, then no-one above 37. India managed a better balance with 3 80's and a couple of 40's. England second innings wasn't at a player by player level, much better than the first 196 from Pope the rest mainly in the 30's (one 40 from Duckett), India 4th highest score 39.

Would be good to see a few of the guys building (and I don't necessarily mean like Geoffrey) to 50/60.

[BWFC_Insane]

Again I think England have done admirably considering the attack we have available and that India won the toss. 6 wickets down is no mean feat in these conditions.

Clearly going to be even tougher than the first test was for us (and that was tough) but at least we are competing.

I think they're always pretty difficult to judge after one incomplete innings, unless you've bowled noticeable dog dirt. If you're them you're probably telling yourself 336 with maybe a push to 400, is always a decent total on tracks where you think you might have the upper hand bowling. Obvs, how we set about the reply will add further flavour.

What I would say, a bit like our second innings in the first test, there's a one man hero with the bat, and none of the others have got above 34, thus far, which suggests that it's maybe par 300-340 and they're at that, with 4 in the bag.

This is a bit of a pattern from first test - Eng 1st - Stokes 70, then no-one above 37. India managed a better balance with 3 80's and a couple of 40's. England second innings wasn't at a player by player level, much better than the first 196 from Pope the rest mainly in the 30's (one 40 from Duckett), India 4th highest score 39.

Would be good to see a few of the guys building (and I don't necessarily mean like Geoffrey) to 50/60.

Yeah don’t get me wrong - I’d rather be India right now by a distance. But they won’t the toss and there wasn’t a lot happening when I was watching. To have them 6 down I think isn’t dreadful. Past England sides could have let them get away but we just about clung on.


As for the starts thing I agree. Is it a symptom of how many players bat nowadays that it’s not like they’ve spent two hours just getting in and are now seeing it like a melon with perfect timing and instead are sort of ‘never really as in’ as you’d like?

I dunno. There are a few like Steve smith or Kohli or maybe Root where they still feel like test batsmen of old where if they get into the 30’s you start to worry.

But a lot nowadays get there swinging and just keep swinging.