creeeeeeeekeeeeeet

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Re: creeeeeeeekeeeeeet

Post by BWFC_Insane » Sat Jun 05, 2021 6:51 pm

Bruce Rioja wrote:
Sat Jun 05, 2021 5:35 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Sat Jun 05, 2021 4:28 pm
Burns saved us there. And the rain.
Indeed. Yet still I wouldn't be in the least bit surprised to see him out fer nowt in the second innings.
This has to be as poor an England batting side as we'll (hopefully) ever see.
Yeah it is. And Burns is resilient but have to agree he doesn’t inspire confidence. The batting line up is absolutely dreadful. As worthy says it isn’t like there are glaring selection issues either. We just don’t have the talent to pick from currently,

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Re: creeeeeeeekeeeeeet

Post by TANGODANCER » Sat Jun 05, 2021 7:14 pm

N.Z 62-2 and 165 ahead with one full day to go (weather permitting). We have a good chance of saving the game with a draw, which, earlier looked very unlikely. Game on.
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Re: creeeeeeeekeeeeeet

Post by jimbo » Sat Jun 05, 2021 9:39 pm

Worthy4England wrote:
Sat Jun 05, 2021 2:34 pm
Quite, so you could draw the conclusion that Buttler has some way to go, to match Bairstow at his peak...which was when England started fecking about with him.
That fecking about with him also saw him become one of the best ODI openers ever. His change in technique is what consistently sees him bowled or LBW in test cricket.

I’ve seen Malan touted as a potential call up for winter. Finding form for Yorkshire and made a ton last time in Australia. He stands a chance of playing, but ultimately it’s just a case of trying to find the best of a bad hand of cards selection wise.

Edit to add that I still think Denly’s role a couple of years ago was underrated. While clearly not high class, he managed to occupy the crease for 100 balls most innings so gave a semblance of stability at 3. God it’s a low bar at the moment that I’d be happy with someone to do the same in Australia this time.

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Re: creeeeeeeekeeeeeet

Post by BWFC_Insane » Sat Jun 05, 2021 9:54 pm

jimbo wrote:
Sat Jun 05, 2021 9:39 pm
Worthy4England wrote:
Sat Jun 05, 2021 2:34 pm
Quite, so you could draw the conclusion that Buttler has some way to go, to match Bairstow at his peak...which was when England started fecking about with him.
That fecking about with him also saw him become one of the best ODI openers ever. His change in technique is what consistently sees him bowled or LBW in test cricket.

I’ve seen Malan touted as a potential call up for winter. Finding form for Yorkshire and made a ton last time in Australia. He stands a chance of playing, but ultimately it’s just a case of trying to find the best of a bad hand of cards selection wise.

Edit to add that I still think Denly’s role a couple of years ago was underrated. While clearly not high class, he managed to occupy the crease for 100 balls most innings so gave a semblance of stability at 3. God it’s a low bar at the moment that I’d be happy with someone to do the same in Australia this time.
I could see an argument that Malan has improved since his last stint so perhaps worth a go. But another who has become a one day or t20 specialist really.

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Re: creeeeeeeekeeeeeet

Post by Worthy4England » Sun Jun 06, 2021 12:47 am

jimbo wrote:
Sat Jun 05, 2021 9:39 pm
Worthy4England wrote:
Sat Jun 05, 2021 2:34 pm
Quite, so you could draw the conclusion that Buttler has some way to go, to match Bairstow at his peak...which was when England started fecking about with him.
That fecking about with him also saw him become one of the best ODI openers ever. His change in technique is what consistently sees him bowled or LBW in test cricket.

I’ve seen Malan touted as a potential call up for winter. Finding form for Yorkshire and made a ton last time in Australia. He stands a chance of playing, but ultimately it’s just a case of trying to find the best of a bad hand of cards selection wise.

Edit to add that I still think Denly’s role a couple of years ago was underrated. While clearly not high class, he managed to occupy the crease for 100 balls most innings so gave a semblance of stability at 3. God it’s a low bar at the moment that I’d be happy with someone to do the same in Australia this time.
Don't disagree Jimbo. Different games ODI and tests. Bairstow, a Yorkshireman who I have no particular love for, in 2016 broke the record for most runs in a calender year for a wk and averaged nearly 60. We're now contesting that Buttler might somehow be better coz he's pushed his average up to 34, 5 years later. Jos is an exceptional one day player, and history might say decent test player. Bairstow was the best wk/batsman, factually, in the world and we fecked him up.

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Re: creeeeeeeekeeeeeet

Post by BWFC_Insane » Sun Jun 06, 2021 7:15 am

Worthy4England wrote:
Sun Jun 06, 2021 12:47 am
jimbo wrote:
Sat Jun 05, 2021 9:39 pm
Worthy4England wrote:
Sat Jun 05, 2021 2:34 pm
Quite, so you could draw the conclusion that Buttler has some way to go, to match Bairstow at his peak...which was when England started fecking about with him.
That fecking about with him also saw him become one of the best ODI openers ever. His change in technique is what consistently sees him bowled or LBW in test cricket.

I’ve seen Malan touted as a potential call up for winter. Finding form for Yorkshire and made a ton last time in Australia. He stands a chance of playing, but ultimately it’s just a case of trying to find the best of a bad hand of cards selection wise.

Edit to add that I still think Denly’s role a couple of years ago was underrated. While clearly not high class, he managed to occupy the crease for 100 balls most innings so gave a semblance of stability at 3. God it’s a low bar at the moment that I’d be happy with someone to do the same in Australia this time.
Don't disagree Jimbo. Different games ODI and tests. Bairstow, a Yorkshireman who I have no particular love for, in 2016 broke the record for most runs in a calender year for a wk and averaged nearly 60. We're now contesting that Buttler might somehow be better coz he's pushed his average up to 34, 5 years later. Jos is an exceptional one day player, and history might say decent test player. Bairstow was the best wk/batsman, factually, in the world and we fecked him up.
Thing is I’m not sure it’s ‘our’ fault. From what I’ve read Johnny Bairstow chose to focus on the one day and t20 stuff. He was on record as wanting to become the ‘best ODI batsman in the world’. I’m sure he didn’t expect it to ruin his test career but I’m fairly sure the whole thing isn’t as simple as a minor change in technique being completely responsible for his loss of test form.

In the same way in reverse that Jos has worked incredibly hard to even have an average of 34.5 in test matches from as you say being the best ODI batsman in the world but absolutely nowhere in test cricket.

It’s partly down to the players and their mentality. Like you I find it frustrating that Bairstow who at his peak was a outstanding top order batsman at test level let alone WK batter is now where he is. And I’m sure England’s coaching will bear some responsibility but I suspect most lies on his shoulders.

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Re: creeeeeeeekeeeeeet

Post by Worthy4England » Sun Jun 06, 2021 10:05 am

There's certainly going to be "two way street" about it. Like you drill technique in, you can drill it out too. That year he had sits there amongst and between years that weren't at that standard and it just happened to have 15 tests in it. When it comes down to it, the three formats will have players who don't adapt to all three and I can understand that the big monetary rewards aren't in test cricket, so from a players perspective IPL is financially more attractive in terms of big bucks vs good bucks.

In retrospect and with the benefit of hindsight it was fcuked up thinking and we've ended up a poorer test side overall.

I'd also contend that he's not a "top order batsman", his averages at 3, 4, 5 are a lot lower than at 6, 7, 8. And the gameplay is world apart. You'd not want to see Jos coming in at 3, really, yet that's what we tried with Bairstow and it plainly hasn't worked.

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Re: creeeeeeeekeeeeeet

Post by BWFC_Insane » Sun Jun 06, 2021 11:07 am

Worthy4England wrote:
Sun Jun 06, 2021 10:05 am
There's certainly going to be "two way street" about it. Like you drill technique in, you can drill it out too. That year he had sits there amongst and between years that weren't at that standard and it just happened to have 15 tests in it. When it comes down to it, the three formats will have players who don't adapt to all three and I can understand that the big monetary rewards aren't in test cricket, so from a players perspective IPL is financially more attractive in terms of big bucks vs good bucks.

In retrospect and with the benefit of hindsight it was fcuked up thinking and we've ended up a poorer test side overall.

I'd also contend that he's not a "top order batsman", his averages at 3, 4, 5 are a lot lower than at 6, 7, 8. And the gameplay is world apart. You'd not want to see Jos coming in at 3, really, yet that's what we tried with Bairstow and it plainly hasn't worked.
Yeah don’t disagree at all other than I’m not sure you can stop someone like Bairstow wanting to prioritise the ODI stuff. Nor would I necessarily blame him. We aren’t the only country with such issues. We do seem to have an unusually barren choice of test level batsmen right now. We all know that in normal circumstances most of these wouldn’t be close to the side including Jos but it’s a strange situation. Need to find the next Cook and Strauss soon…..

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Re: creeeeeeeekeeeeeet

Post by TANGODANCER » Sun Jun 06, 2021 1:11 pm

Be such a shame if the result is decided by the weather. Play due to resume at 1-25...if....
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Re: creeeeeeeekeeeeeet

Post by TANGODANCER » Sun Jun 06, 2021 1:48 pm

N.Z. have declared. Makes for an exciting finish...maybe?
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Re: creeeeeeeekeeeeeet

Post by BWFC_Insane » Sun Jun 06, 2021 9:14 pm

ECB suspend Ollie Robinson from all international cricket and he’s out the England camp pending an investigation into his dodgy historic tweets. Now we all said education and move on. But it was obvious what would happen. A shame as he had a great debut but you cannot embarrass the ECB like that.

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Re: creeeeeeeekeeeeeet

Post by Worthy4England » Mon Jun 07, 2021 8:39 am

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Sun Jun 06, 2021 9:14 pm
ECB suspend Ollie Robinson from all international cricket and he’s out the England camp pending an investigation into his dodgy historic tweets. Now we all said education and move on. But it was obvious what would happen. A shame as he had a great debut but you cannot embarrass the ECB like that.
Can't say I'm surprised - that would be the wrong word. For me in all of these things (because it's on the rise), you have to judge the intent as well as what's on a page in front of you. His tweets were 10 years ago, they weren't (from my reading) directed/targeted at anyone other than his mates, with whom, he thinks he's being funny. Context is everything.

You can't have a zero tolerance policy, then allow tolerances, but punishments still need to fit crimes...

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Re: creeeeeeeekeeeeeet

Post by BWFC_Insane » Mon Jun 07, 2021 10:17 am

Worthy4England wrote:
Mon Jun 07, 2021 8:39 am
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Sun Jun 06, 2021 9:14 pm
ECB suspend Ollie Robinson from all international cricket and he’s out the England camp pending an investigation into his dodgy historic tweets. Now we all said education and move on. But it was obvious what would happen. A shame as he had a great debut but you cannot embarrass the ECB like that.
Can't say I'm surprised - that would be the wrong word. For me in all of these things (because it's on the rise), you have to judge the intent as well as what's on a page in front of you. His tweets were 10 years ago, they weren't (from my reading) directed/targeted at anyone other than his mates, with whom, he thinks he's being funny. Context is everything.

You can't have a zero tolerance policy, then allow tolerances, but punishments still need to fit crimes...
Right and I agree. My devil's advocate counterpoint though is that having managed a large team of people you do have the issue of a) very grey areas and b) a need to sometimes take a zero tolerance approach.

The problem is that whilst I think we can all see these tweets were stupid, probably ill-educated rather than malicious and designed to cause hurt....there will be situations where its less obvious. A 14 year old for example racially harassing someone on social media is later discovered when they play for England at 22. They were only 14. But their tweets were designed to cause hurt and were racist. Becomes more difficult. There will also be cases where there is a much more borderline - is this just stupid or is it dangerous. And situations where context and intent are impossible to judge. And we go beyond racism here to well, just about anything.

And whilst case by case is probably the ONLY way to go it does leave you as an organisation open to massive problems. I think in this case all it needed was a strong statement OR attending a suitable course and making a further apology and moving on. But what if next week something surfaces about another player that's similar but a little more extreme...you can (and I'm playing devil's advocate here) fully see why there probably wasn't much choice.

Its going to take some very stringent policies putting in place to manage this all in the future.

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Re: creeeeeeeekeeeeeet

Post by TANGODANCER » Mon Jun 07, 2021 10:34 am

I agree Worthy. Much, for me, depends on his attitude now. If you admit to your crime/sin/fault , whatever, apologise and ask forgiveness, then amongst reasonable people, that should be it. To drag it on after ten years is vengeance, not forgiveness, and there's a real sense of "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone about this".

In essence, cricket is the most gentlemanly of the major sports, in reality....
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Re: creeeeeeeekeeeeeet

Post by BWFC_Insane » Mon Jun 07, 2021 11:10 am

TANGODANCER wrote:
Mon Jun 07, 2021 10:34 am
I agree Worthy. Much, for me, depends on his attitude now. If you admit to your crime/sin/fault , whatever, apologise and ask forgiveness, then amongst reasonable people, that should be it. To drag it on after ten years is vengeance, not forgiveness, and there's a real sense of "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone about this".

In essence, cricket is the most gentlemanly of the major sports, in reality....
I mean he tweeted those things as an adult. The problem you've got is that there will be other cases with different circumstances and it puts the ECB in a very difficult position to go case by case. Its also very difficult to judge an attitude 'now'. Nobody is going to say 'I won't say sorry' but whether that would always be enough is debatable.

In this case its clear that it could have been sorted without this BUT of course that doesn't then cover you for what might occur in the future.

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Re: creeeeeeeekeeeeeet

Post by Prufrock » Mon Jun 07, 2021 11:34 am

I mean just about. We have bright line tests on where adulthood starts mainly to protect kids, that's not to say you're a fully formed responsible person the moment you turn 18.

Darkly funny to me that the nature of test cricket means it's been going on nearly a week before they can announce this. Grimly British 5 days of everyone whistling loudly and talking about the weather.
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Re: creeeeeeeekeeeeeet

Post by jimbo » Mon Jun 07, 2021 11:59 am

I suppose they had no alternative to suspend him. They need to show they’re doing a full review, and treating it seriously. I suspect the outcome will be apology and some community work and going on a course. Problem is the next test is a few days away and the above process won’t be able to be done in that time. He’ll miss this test, then be back for India.

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Re: creeeeeeeekeeeeeet

Post by BWFC_Insane » Mon Jun 07, 2021 12:18 pm

Prufrock wrote:
Mon Jun 07, 2021 11:34 am
I mean just about. We have bright line tests on where adulthood starts mainly to protect kids, that's not to say you're a fully formed responsible person the moment you turn 18.

Darkly funny to me that the nature of test cricket means it's been going on nearly a week before they can announce this. Grimly British 5 days of everyone whistling loudly and talking about the weather.
Yeah but say someone who turns out as a 16 year old was tweeting aggressive messages to their girlfriend - gets into the test side then later the messages are seen - but they weren't an adult yet. Then allegations of violence surface. I think we all put ourselves in 'common sense fan' mode rather than considering the implications of any action or inaction on an organisation that will see hundreds of people in and out over the decade. And that's probably where its tough to make a call really.

Not that in this case I think a full investigation was warranted - I don't think it was. There was a simpler solution. But then I don't have to stand that up in a few months when a different and more complex situation emerges.

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Re: creeeeeeeekeeeeeet

Post by BWFC_Insane » Mon Jun 07, 2021 1:47 pm

I was just chatting to someone who made what I consider to be an excellent point about this. Those that say, but Robinson was only 18 water under the bridge - he wasn't much more as a kid....are almost certainly in many cases the same people who frothed at the mouth about Shamima Begum who was indoctrinated and radicalised as a 15 year old girl.

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Re: creeeeeeeekeeeeeet

Post by Worthy4England » Mon Jun 07, 2021 2:04 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Mon Jun 07, 2021 1:47 pm
I was just chatting to someone who made what I consider to be an excellent point about this. Those that say, but Robinson was only 18 water under the bridge - he wasn't much more as a kid....are almost certainly in many cases the same people who frothed at the mouth about Shamima Begum who was indoctrinated and radicalised as a 15 year old girl.
Not sure there'll be a huge intersect between the two. If only life were that simple.

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