creeeeeeeekeeeeeet

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Worthy4England
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Re: creeeeeeeekeeeeeet

Post by Worthy4England » Thu Feb 25, 2021 3:34 pm

OT in September, you might not see cricket let alone wickets.

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Re: creeeeeeeekeeeeeet

Post by Bruce Rioja » Thu Feb 25, 2021 4:20 pm

Worthy4England wrote:
Thu Feb 25, 2021 3:34 pm
OT in September, you might not see cricket let alone wickets.
Very true, but there's a chance that I will, and right now that's good enough for me, owd lad. ;)
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Re: creeeeeeeekeeeeeet

Post by Worthy4England » Fri Feb 26, 2021 9:09 am

So what's everyone watching, Day 3?

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Re: creeeeeeeekeeeeeet

Post by Prufrock » Fri Feb 26, 2021 9:41 am

At least they're making some new Frasier to fill these gaps.

I think I'm going to have to do some bloody work. Root out.
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Re: creeeeeeeekeeeeeet

Post by Bruce Rioja » Fri Feb 26, 2021 10:45 am

Caught a snippet this morning that Vaughn's been slating our batsmen as not being good enough. Now then, putting aside the fact that he may or may not have a broader point, I find it a little harsh to start calling out batsmen for failing on a wicket on which bowlers who normally couldn't turn a ball on a corrugated roof were bowling like Shane Warne.

I said this a while ago - Vaughn's clearly spotted a forthcoming gap in the punditry market for a cantankerous Yorkshire c*nt, and is setting his stall out accordingly.
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Re: creeeeeeeekeeeeeet

Post by Worthy4England » Fri Feb 26, 2021 11:35 am

I've listened to his "crickbuzz" interview - he spends a lot of time criticizing the pitch and the ball, making the point that India who are much more used to batting on turning tracks were bundled on Day 2. He says that the contest wasn't fair between bat and ball and wasn't "Test Match Cricket", he has it down as worse than the 2nd Test track, on which the Indians scored approaching 300 twice.

He is, of course, a cantankerous Yorkshire c*nt.

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Re: creeeeeeeekeeeeeet

Post by BWFC_Insane » Fri Feb 26, 2021 11:54 am

Bruce Rioja wrote:
Fri Feb 26, 2021 10:45 am
Caught a snippet this morning that Vaughn's been slating our batsmen as not being good enough. Now then, putting aside the fact that he may or may not have a broader point, I find it a little harsh to start calling out batsmen for failing on a wicket on which bowlers who normally couldn't turn a ball on a corrugated roof were bowling like Shane Warne.

I said this a while ago - Vaughn's clearly spotted a forthcoming gap in the punditry market for a cantankerous Yorkshire c*nt, and is setting his stall out accordingly.
Yeah but he's right - we made 193 runs for 20 wickets. Even on a very difficult surface I think there were some shocking dismissals. There are the usual questions about our batting. I just thought I'd compare the Indian top 7 averages against our own and Australia's and NZ (who are top test ranked currently) based on selections from the last tests they've all played. Totals at bottom.

They are as follows (based on teams from last test):

India England Australia New Zealand
46.65 37.16 48.09 42.24
37.80 32.48 23.77 38.40
46.81 34.45 60.80 54.34
52.74 49.60 61.80 45.80
41.41 37.18 29.87 43.91
43.34 32.78 33.71 38.11
28.11 36.00 32.63 75.33

296.86 259.65 290.67 338.13

Now clearly Daryl Mitchell at number 7 for NZ isn't going to average 75 for long. Lets knock him down to 30. Which puts NZ on 293.

We can clearly see the issue here - these are the top 4 sides in the world. 3 of them are averaging 290+ from their top 7 and have mutliple players averaging above 40 and even above 50 in Australia's case. So you have a realiable top 7 or at least on average a reliable top 7 if one fails there are others.

England's top 7 averages less than 260 - over 30 runs behind their competitors and only one player averages over 40. So you could say that if Root is out England are reliant on players batting above their average test efforts.....

I'll also add I used to like Michael Vaughan but agree he's one of those who is trying to fit a caricature. Complains about lockdown. Complains about people who break lockdown. Complains about the government. Complains about people who criticise the government.

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Re: creeeeeeeekeeeeeet

Post by BWFC_Insane » Thu Mar 04, 2021 10:28 am

I see another dismal effort from our batsmen....

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Re: creeeeeeeekeeeeeet

Post by TANGODANCER » Thu Mar 04, 2021 11:59 am

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Thu Mar 04, 2021 10:28 am
I see another dismal effort from our batsmen....
Wee bit soon to be dissing us isn't it? Let's at least have one day at them before writing us off.
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Re: creeeeeeeekeeeeeet

Post by Bruce Rioja » Thu Mar 04, 2021 1:41 pm

TANGODANCER wrote:
Thu Mar 04, 2021 11:59 am
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Thu Mar 04, 2021 10:28 am
I see another dismal effort from our batsmen....
Wee bit soon to be dissing us isn't it? Let's at least have one day at them before writing us off.
I'd love to agree, Tango, and yes let's have a look at them tomorrow, however, the BBC's report starts with this, which to me looks basically impossible to disagree wit:

England's batsmen failed again on the first day of the final Test against India in Ahmedabad.
On a blameless pitch, entirely different from the third-Test surface that made run-scoring so difficult, England were bundled out for 205 after winning the toss.
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Re: creeeeeeeekeeeeeet

Post by BWFC_Insane » Thu Mar 04, 2021 2:23 pm

TANGODANCER wrote:
Thu Mar 04, 2021 11:59 am
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Thu Mar 04, 2021 10:28 am
I see another dismal effort from our batsmen....
Wee bit soon to be dissing us isn't it? Let's at least have one day at them before writing us off.
In isolation sure. But see my post above where I've demonstrated that England's top 7 average close to 50 less than the other 3 top test nations currently and that England's scores are almost entirely contingent on one player (Root) batting well - England have one player averaging over 40 in their top 7. India 5, Australia 3, NZ, 5. This is a long standing problem that is clearly demonstrated - our batting is not as good as other top test nations. Noticeably, obviously and statistically so. So today isn't an aberration. Even if England's bowlers get us out of jail it doesn't stop the basic observation that fundamentally our batting is weak compared to our competitors, and weak by a considerable margin.

I'm not even sure there is a good explanation for it. Why should England have such a poor top 7?

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Re: creeeeeeeekeeeeeet

Post by Worthy4England » Thu Mar 04, 2021 3:02 pm

England have won 7 out of the last 10 Series...losses against WI and NZ and a draw (at home) to Australia. So whatever they've done in the 7 series, it's been better than the team they've been playing against...

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Re: creeeeeeeekeeeeeet

Post by BWFC_Insane » Thu Mar 04, 2021 4:03 pm

Worthy4England wrote:
Thu Mar 04, 2021 3:02 pm
England have won 7 out of the last 10 Series...losses against WI and NZ and a draw (at home) to Australia. So whatever they've done in the 7 series, it's been better than the team they've been playing against...
Well our losses (assuming India win this series which seems likely) have been to two of the other top 4 sides and a draw against the 3rd at home. My point is an analysis of our batting. We may well compensate with bowling enough to win many tests. And that's great. But the batting is clearly an issue however, you want to cut it. And if you're looking at the next Ashes or whatever big big series hand on heart you have to say our chances look somewhat diminished given that fact.

I guess in football terms its like winning 1-0 for 5 games in a row then hitting the buffers with a few 0-0's and 1-0 defeats. When you won games you defended brilliantly but scoring was always an issue. It doesn't make it a non issue just because you can defend well at times.

For me England's batting is a mystery - why are we so bad compared to our peers (statistically)? It makes no sense. Unless we've just got a particularly weak crop. There is no reason why we should be so far behind in this area - especially when bowling wise that doesn't appear to be the case.

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Re: creeeeeeeekeeeeeet

Post by Worthy4England » Thu Mar 04, 2021 8:06 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Thu Mar 04, 2021 4:03 pm
Worthy4England wrote:
Thu Mar 04, 2021 3:02 pm
England have won 7 out of the last 10 Series...losses against WI and NZ and a draw (at home) to Australia. So whatever they've done in the 7 series, it's been better than the team they've been playing against...
Well our losses (assuming India win this series which seems likely) have been to two of the other top 4 sides and a draw against the 3rd at home. My point is an analysis of our batting. We may well compensate with bowling enough to win many tests. And that's great. But the batting is clearly an issue however, you want to cut it. And if you're looking at the next Ashes or whatever big big series hand on heart you have to say our chances look somewhat diminished given that fact.

I guess in football terms its like winning 1-0 for 5 games in a row then hitting the buffers with a few 0-0's and 1-0 defeats. When you won games you defended brilliantly but scoring was always an issue. It doesn't make it a non issue just because you can defend well at times.

For me England's batting is a mystery - why are we so bad compared to our peers (statistically)? It makes no sense. Unless we've just got a particularly weak crop. There is no reason why we should be so far behind in this area - especially when bowling wise that doesn't appear to be the case.
I agree that England's batting isn't as good as the three teams in front of us, I don't think there's much doubt about that. If you look at the World Test Championship averages:

Australia have two exceptional batsmen in Labuchagne and Smith who are averaging 73 and 64 respectively, Warner is on 47, then the rest are really quite moderate - high 20's to mid 30's. We don't have anyone in the Labuchagne/Smith league.

India have a couple that are exceptional, in Sharma and Jadega 64 and 59 respectively - not quite as good as the Aussie pair, but then they have another 4 batsmen over 40 and a couple of high 30's.

New Zealand have Mitchell, Williamson and Jamieson, all over 50 (76, 58, 56) and another 3 over 40.

We have no exceptional outliers, Root and Stokes at around 47, Crawley on 37 and not a lot else.

So in summary NZ have 3 good and 3 exceptional batters and are top, India have 2 exceptional batters and 4 good and are second, Aus have two exceptional batters, 1 good and are 3rd, we have no exceptional batters, 2 good and are 4th...

I'm not sure where we're going to find two or three exceptional batters from.

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Re: creeeeeeeekeeeeeet

Post by BWFC_Insane » Thu Mar 04, 2021 9:19 pm

Worthy4England wrote:
Thu Mar 04, 2021 8:06 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Thu Mar 04, 2021 4:03 pm
Worthy4England wrote:
Thu Mar 04, 2021 3:02 pm
England have won 7 out of the last 10 Series...losses against WI and NZ and a draw (at home) to Australia. So whatever they've done in the 7 series, it's been better than the team they've been playing against...
Well our losses (assuming India win this series which seems likely) have been to two of the other top 4 sides and a draw against the 3rd at home. My point is an analysis of our batting. We may well compensate with bowling enough to win many tests. And that's great. But the batting is clearly an issue however, you want to cut it. And if you're looking at the next Ashes or whatever big big series hand on heart you have to say our chances look somewhat diminished given that fact.

I guess in football terms its like winning 1-0 for 5 games in a row then hitting the buffers with a few 0-0's and 1-0 defeats. When you won games you defended brilliantly but scoring was always an issue. It doesn't make it a non issue just because you can defend well at times.

For me England's batting is a mystery - why are we so bad compared to our peers (statistically)? It makes no sense. Unless we've just got a particularly weak crop. There is no reason why we should be so far behind in this area - especially when bowling wise that doesn't appear to be the case.
I agree that England's batting isn't as good as the three teams in front of us, I don't think there's much doubt about that. If you look at the World Test Championship averages:

Australia have two exceptional batsmen in Labuchagne and Smith who are averaging 73 and 64 respectively, Warner is on 47, then the rest are really quite moderate - high 20's to mid 30's. We don't have anyone in the Labuchagne/Smith league.

India have a couple that are exceptional, in Sharma and Jadega 64 and 59 respectively - not quite as good as the Aussie pair, but then they have another 4 batsmen over 40 and a couple of high 30's.

New Zealand have Mitchell, Williamson and Jamieson, all over 50 (76, 58, 56) and another 3 over 40.

We have no exceptional outliers, Root and Stokes at around 47, Crawley on 37 and not a lot else.

So in summary NZ have 3 good and 3 exceptional batters and are top, India have 2 exceptional batters and 4 good and are second, Aus have two exceptional batters, 1 good and are 3rd, we have no exceptional batters, 2 good and are 4th...

I'm not sure where we're going to find two or three exceptional batters from.
Stokes averages 37. Only one player in Root averages over 40. England’s problem is not just the lack of an exceptional batter. It’s the lack of any good ones before the two aforementioned names. Even average ones would improve us.

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Re: creeeeeeeekeeeeeet

Post by Worthy4England » Thu Mar 04, 2021 9:24 pm

You might have missed the bit about "If you look at the World Test Championship averages"...All those averages used were from that set of stats...the issue remains, that unless they're hidden under a rock, we simply don't seem to have the batting to compete with the other three in front of us...

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Re: creeeeeeeekeeeeeet

Post by Worthy4England » Fri Mar 05, 2021 10:15 am

We need to pull their Pant's down.

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Re: creeeeeeeekeeeeeet

Post by TANGODANCER » Fri Mar 05, 2021 12:46 pm

Things not looking too hot right now, but we've been here before. "Cometh the hour" etc.
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Re: creeeeeeeekeeeeeet

Post by Harry Genshaw » Fri Mar 05, 2021 12:48 pm

Worthy4England wrote:
Fri Feb 26, 2021 11:35 am

He is, of course, a cantankerous Yorkshire c*nt.
Do they come in any other format? :D
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Re: creeeeeeeekeeeeeet

Post by Worthy4England » Fri Mar 05, 2021 12:55 pm

Harry Genshaw wrote:
Fri Mar 05, 2021 12:48 pm
Worthy4England wrote:
Fri Feb 26, 2021 11:35 am

He is, of course, a cantankerous Yorkshire c*nt.
Do they come in any other format? :D
A very sound point and a point of view excellently framed.

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