creeeeeeeekeeeeeet

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Prufrock
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Re: creeeeeeeekeeeeeet

Post by Prufrock » Mon Sep 06, 2021 2:06 pm

He'd gone when I wrote that.

But that doesn't work anyway. I want to not lose first. I'd rather Hameed had stuck around and we decided at tea you know what this isn't happening let's shut up shop.

Anyhoo, I'd take the draw now!!
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Re: creeeeeeeekeeeeeet

Post by BWFC_Insane » Mon Sep 06, 2021 2:08 pm

Prufrock wrote:
Mon Sep 06, 2021 2:06 pm
He'd gone when I wrote that.

But that doesn't work anyway. I want to not lose first. I'd rather Hameed had stuck around and we decided at tea you know what this isn't happening let's shut up shop.

Anyhoo, I'd take the draw now!!
Finding it hard to see this middle order seeing this out now. If as it should be we needed another 100 or so it'd be tailor made for them. But win out the window now and its about batting the day out which for me is NOT Bairstow, Moeen, Woakes et al....

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Re: creeeeeeeekeeeeeet

Post by jimbo » Mon Sep 06, 2021 2:14 pm

15 overs to the new ball. Slim chance of survival here.

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Re: creeeeeeeekeeeeeet

Post by jimbo » Mon Sep 06, 2021 2:15 pm

You really do just need to bowl straight at Bairstow.

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Re: creeeeeeeekeeeeeet

Post by BWFC_Insane » Mon Sep 06, 2021 2:17 pm

Its a bit shocking that there is nothing in the pitch but yorkers are doing for supposed test quality batsmen.

Also shows where England's attack past two days needed variety. Overton, Jimmy, Woakes all to samey. Obviously most of that down to availability but food for thought.

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Re: creeeeeeeekeeeeeet

Post by Worthy4England » Mon Sep 06, 2021 2:17 pm

Oh dear - no ability to weather some pressure, but some good deliveries to take wickets.

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Re: creeeeeeeekeeeeeet

Post by BWFC_Insane » Mon Sep 06, 2021 2:21 pm

Worthy4England wrote:
Mon Sep 06, 2021 2:17 pm
Oh dear - no ability to weather some pressure, but some good deliveries to take wickets.
BAT FIRST! My case has been proven. Unless its an absolute trench of a pitch or the weather is exceptional apart from day 1 bat first. You might still lose but batting last is just asking for.....this.

Dominate the game for all but 2 sessions and we'll lose.

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Re: creeeeeeeekeeeeeet

Post by Prufrock » Mon Sep 06, 2021 2:23 pm

Well of course. This test proves that if you bat first you will win 100% of them time.
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Re: creeeeeeeekeeeeeet

Post by jimbo » Mon Sep 06, 2021 2:25 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Mon Sep 06, 2021 2:21 pm
Worthy4England wrote:
Mon Sep 06, 2021 2:17 pm
Oh dear - no ability to weather some pressure, but some good deliveries to take wickets.
BAT FIRST! My case has been proven. Unless its an absolute trench of a pitch or the weather is exceptional apart from day 1 bat first. You might still lose but batting last is just asking for.....this.

Dominate the game for all but 2 sessions and we'll lose.
We’ve not dominated for all but 2 sessions. Arguably we have only dominated for the first 2 sessions…. Since then it’s been India coming more and more into the game.

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Re: creeeeeeeekeeeeeet

Post by BWFC_Insane » Mon Sep 06, 2021 2:35 pm

Prufrock wrote:
Mon Sep 06, 2021 2:23 pm
Well of course. This test proves that if you bat first you will win 100% of them time.
No doesn't guarantee you win. But its not like I didn't say this after India's first innings you could see what was going to happen. It wasn't hindsight. Bowling first worked last time because we removed them for 78 and effectively it took all the pressure off our first innings. But they got 191 which was still great for us IF we had a normal batting side. But we don't.

When you can bat well bowling first is a better option if conditions are right for it. But we cannot bat. And once India scored anything over 120/30 they were always likely to be in the game if the wicket calmed down as it was always likely to. And I'm afraid with this England side the last thing you want to ask it to do is bat day 5 to win or draw a test.

Its purely down to the conditions and players available. For me we'd have always been better off batting first even with the green tinge and weather. Simply because we'd have been out quickly enough to still take advantage with the ball, bat on a reasonable surface and hopefully get some sort of a lead. India are a better side but I still (and its not hindsight) never thought bowling first was a good call.

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Re: creeeeeeeekeeeeeet

Post by BWFC_Insane » Mon Sep 06, 2021 2:37 pm

jimbo wrote:
Mon Sep 06, 2021 2:25 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Mon Sep 06, 2021 2:21 pm
Worthy4England wrote:
Mon Sep 06, 2021 2:17 pm
Oh dear - no ability to weather some pressure, but some good deliveries to take wickets.
BAT FIRST! My case has been proven. Unless its an absolute trench of a pitch or the weather is exceptional apart from day 1 bat first. You might still lose but batting last is just asking for.....this.

Dominate the game for all but 2 sessions and we'll lose.
We’ve not dominated for all but 2 sessions. Arguably we have only dominated for the first 2 sessions…. Since then it’s been India coming more and more into the game.
Ok fair enough dominate is an exaggeration I accept. But we'll probably lose by 100 runs ish and had a 100 run lead after innings one....

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Re: creeeeeeeekeeeeeet

Post by Bruce Rioja » Mon Sep 06, 2021 2:41 pm

Worthy4England wrote:
Mon Sep 06, 2021 2:17 pm
Oh dear - no ability to weather some pressure, but some good deliveries to take wickets.
Bumrah's Yorker to Bairstow was as fine a Yorker as I think I've ever seen. Credit where it's due, absolutely. Some of these balls are simply unplayable.
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Re: creeeeeeeekeeeeeet

Post by Prufrock » Mon Sep 06, 2021 2:45 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Mon Sep 06, 2021 2:35 pm
Prufrock wrote:
Mon Sep 06, 2021 2:23 pm
Well of course. This test proves that if you bat first you will win 100% of them time.
No doesn't guarantee you win. But its not like I didn't say this after India's first innings you could see what was going to happen. It wasn't hindsight. Bowling first worked last time because we removed them for 78 and effectively it took all the pressure off our first innings. But they got 191 which was still great for us IF we had a normal batting side. But we don't.

When you can bat well bowling first is a better option if conditions are right for it. But we cannot bat. And once India scored anything over 120/30 they were always likely to be in the game if the wicket calmed down as it was always likely to. And I'm afraid with this England side the last thing you want to ask it to do is bat day 5 to win or draw a test.

Its purely down to the conditions and players available. For me we'd have always been better off batting first even with the green tinge and weather. Simply because we'd have been out quickly enough to still take advantage with the ball, bat on a reasonable surface and hopefully get some sort of a lead. India are a better side but I still (and its not hindsight) never thought bowling first was a good call.
You predict doom and gloom all the time. Given this is an average at best team you're going to be right sometimes. You like talking about confirmation bias... Worthy set out the stats on batting second.

Also worth pointing out that that India's bowlers have really contributed with the bat in a way that was unexpected, whether it's an outlier or they've really gone away and worked on it. Thakur's contribution with the bat might well be the difference.

I'd still have batted first, but it's a lot closer call, and that this test goes one way doesn't "prove" much at all. No guarantees for example we wouldn't have been skittled for less than 100 then lost by an innings.

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Be more kind, my friends, try to be more kind.

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Re: creeeeeeeekeeeeeet

Post by Prufrock » Mon Sep 06, 2021 2:47 pm

Bruce Rioja wrote:
Mon Sep 06, 2021 2:41 pm
Worthy4England wrote:
Mon Sep 06, 2021 2:17 pm
Oh dear - no ability to weather some pressure, but some good deliveries to take wickets.
Bumrah's Yorker to Bairstow was as fine a Yorker as I think I've ever seen. Credit where it's due, absolutely. Some of these balls are simply unplayable.
Was chatting with our kid and we were wondering why he uses it so sparingly. 90mph bob on the money. Not like test batsmen are going to hoik one in the slot for 6. By all means put it away if you're leaking runs, but it looks pretty unplayable to me.

(I'm obviously talking once every couple of overs rather than a stock ball, but he really does save it up)
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Re: creeeeeeeekeeeeeet

Post by Worthy4England » Mon Sep 06, 2021 2:48 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Mon Sep 06, 2021 2:35 pm
Prufrock wrote:
Mon Sep 06, 2021 2:23 pm
Well of course. This test proves that if you bat first you will win 100% of them time.
No doesn't guarantee you win. But its not like I didn't say this after India's first innings you could see what was going to happen. It wasn't hindsight. Bowling first worked last time because we removed them for 78 and effectively it took all the pressure off our first innings. But they got 191 which was still great for us IF we had a normal batting side. But we don't.

When you can bat well bowling first is a better option if conditions are right for it. But we cannot bat. And once India scored anything over 120/30 they were always likely to be in the game if the wicket calmed down as it was always likely to. And I'm afraid with this England side the last thing you want to ask it to do is bat day 5 to win or draw a test.

Its purely down to the conditions and players available. For me we'd have always been better off batting first even with the green tinge and weather. Simply because we'd have been out quickly enough to still take advantage with the ball, bat on a reasonable surface and hopefully get some sort of a lead. India are a better side but I still (and its not hindsight) never thought bowling first was a good call.
Dunno where to start with this and just because you said this might happen doesn't mean it was incorrect to bowl first. We could've batted first and hit 70. They bat second score 300 (like we did), we crumble with 230 to chase. So you still see what's going to happen, just in a different order. When we're arguing a test team scoring 120/130 are in the match against you, that's two unevenly matched teams.

You talk about us getting a third innings lead which might have been a tough ask as you're arguing 120/130 was a big number, and we could've been behind that mark in terms of lead. We had a first innings lead....Pant and Thakur took it away from us, then we let them get further away in the tail.

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Re: creeeeeeeekeeeeeet

Post by Worthy4England » Mon Sep 06, 2021 2:51 pm

Bruce Rioja wrote:
Mon Sep 06, 2021 2:41 pm
Worthy4England wrote:
Mon Sep 06, 2021 2:17 pm
Oh dear - no ability to weather some pressure, but some good deliveries to take wickets.
Bumrah's Yorker to Bairstow was as fine a Yorker as I think I've ever seen. Credit where it's due, absolutely. Some of these balls are simply unplayable.
Aye, I wouldn't have wanted that one back. I mean it didn't swing much (although he had a decent angle on the delivery) and Bairstow was a week late on it, but that ball will get you a wicket much more often than not.

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Re: creeeeeeeekeeeeeet

Post by Worthy4England » Mon Sep 06, 2021 3:00 pm

Prufrock wrote:
Mon Sep 06, 2021 2:45 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Mon Sep 06, 2021 2:35 pm
Prufrock wrote:
Mon Sep 06, 2021 2:23 pm
Well of course. This test proves that if you bat first you will win 100% of them time.
No doesn't guarantee you win. But its not like I didn't say this after India's first innings you could see what was going to happen. It wasn't hindsight. Bowling first worked last time because we removed them for 78 and effectively it took all the pressure off our first innings. But they got 191 which was still great for us IF we had a normal batting side. But we don't.

When you can bat well bowling first is a better option if conditions are right for it. But we cannot bat. And once India scored anything over 120/30 they were always likely to be in the game if the wicket calmed down as it was always likely to. And I'm afraid with this England side the last thing you want to ask it to do is bat day 5 to win or draw a test.

Its purely down to the conditions and players available. For me we'd have always been better off batting first even with the green tinge and weather. Simply because we'd have been out quickly enough to still take advantage with the ball, bat on a reasonable surface and hopefully get some sort of a lead. India are a better side but I still (and its not hindsight) never thought bowling first was a good call.
You predict doom and gloom all the time. Given this is an average at best team you're going to be right sometimes. You like talking about confirmation bias... Worthy set out the stats on batting second.

Also worth pointing out that that India's bowlers have really contributed with the bat in a way that was unexpected, whether it's an outlier or they've really gone away and worked on it. Thakur's contribution with the bat might well be the difference.

I'd still have batted first, but it's a lot closer call, and that this test goes one way doesn't "prove" much at all. No guarantees for example we wouldn't have been skittled for less than 100 then lost by an innings.

They're not 2nd in the world for nothing.
See, where I'm at with it is, in normal circumstances, India will get more runs per innings than us over a period - they're a better team currently. So if you see an opportunity to dart them out coz it's a bit green or whatever, you take that. We did and got a lead. That makes it a one innings game with us having +100 advantage.

The other way around, they'd likely have had a significant first innings lead, they might not have had to bat twice.

Crazy thinking not to take any advantage if you're the weaker team.

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Re: creeeeeeeekeeeeeet

Post by Worthy4England » Mon Sep 06, 2021 3:02 pm

"In terms of England collapses from two down to six down, for just six runs, it is the joint-second worst since 1902, when England crumbled at Bramall Lane."

When you're batting like that - doesn't matter wtf happens with the toss :-)

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Re: creeeeeeeekeeeeeet

Post by Prufrock » Mon Sep 06, 2021 3:19 pm

Goodnight Vienna
In a world that has decided
That it's going to lose its mind
Be more kind, my friends, try to be more kind.

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Re: creeeeeeeekeeeeeet

Post by TANGODANCER » Mon Sep 06, 2021 3:26 pm

Prufrock wrote:
Mon Sep 06, 2021 3:19 pm
Goodnight Vienna
Not yet,,, ae:)
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