Kiev

[KeyserSoze]

getting rather serious this now, lads (and lasses)

21 dead just today http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26268620" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-25182823" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

this timeline is quite fascinating - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-26248275" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[KeyserSoze]

people being sniped in the street - warning, graphic

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0DxkDiAcSF8" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


and a livestream of kiev - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zed_PCSw7pY" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Lost Leopard Spot]

Mostly, the news channels in this (and other countries) are portraying this as a straightforward political clash... but it it isn't, it is far starker than that, it is a straightforward ethnic division - Ukrainians (of which the majority reside in Kiev and the west of the country) and Russians and Cossacks, of whom the greater proportion reside in the east. Russians and Cossacks make up a majority of the overall population, but the Ukrainians are a very large minority. Russians and Cossacks tend to align themselves politically with Russia, Ukrainians tend to align themselves with the West i.e, the EU, but it is the ethnic and linguistic barriers that are important, not the political differences. History shows that this sort of split in a state which once started with a small amount of bloodshed leads to civil war almost every time.

[Lost Leopard Spot]

people being sniped in the street - warning, graphic

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0DxkDiAcSF8" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


and a livestream of kiev - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zed_PCSw7pY" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

blocked by work - graphic adult images. FFS, it's like living in a nanny state.

[Lost Leopard Spot]

anyway, here's a series of maps that makes it obvious...

[bwfcdan94]

My sister made comparisons to the situation in Syria and how that all started and from your graphs it show something similar. One half of the country is pulling towards the far left the other to the right of the political spectrum.

[Lost Leopard Spot]

My sister made comparisons to the situation in Syria and how that all started and from your graphs it show something similar. One half of the country is pulling towards the far left the other to the right of the political spectrum.

That's precisely the opposite of what I'm saying. It's not really right and left, although that's how it's being portrayed, instead it's Ukrainian v Russian, just like Arab v Kurd in 1980s Iraq or Ibo v Yoruba in 1960s Nigerian Biafra war, or Hutu v Tutsi in Rwanda. Not political at all, but ethnic, linguistic.

[Lost Leopard Spot]

The only good thing about Ukraine at the moment is that they gave up their nuclear arsenal soon after independence. I can see this becoming World War III, really...

[Hoboh]

The only good thing about Ukraine at the moment is that they gave up their nuclear arsenal soon after independence. I can see this becoming World War III, really...

I can see Putin suddenly deciding he has a load of 'terrorists' on his door step to deal with.
The pro lobby will soon find out just how 'supportive' the EU can be then, unless they are happy for the hot air that will be heading their way.

[Athers]

Those maps are incredible.

[KeyserSoze]

^

wow.

[William the White]

Below I post a report rom Kiev from Julia Grusseva, a trade union activist, whose perspective is from an anarcho-syndicalist position. She is the translator of Victor Serge into Russian (novelist and Left opposition activist expelled from the soviet Union in 1936 and died in Mexican exile in 1948) and this is from an email circulated by Richard Greeman (American academic and translator of Serge into English - also an activist).

Dear Richard,
You ask what we think of the situation in the Ukraine. In fact, the Ukrainian movement is a part of the wave of civil protests that has been unfurling for the last few years in every corner of the world (“Arab Spring,” Occupy Wall Street, Indignados, the movements in Greece, Turkey, Russia ...). In the Ukraine, the pretext was the refusal of the President to sign the agreement on association with the countries of the European Union. In this semi-authoritarian country, a large part of the population considered that association as a step toward democracy, rights, higher social standards, etc. The positive demands of the movement are democratic (return to the 2004 Constitution, new, free, honest elections, etc): the people are fighting for their full rights. The main thing is that the movement is self-organized (autonomous) everywhere around the country, with activists occupying the town halls, etc. The same labor unions who participated in our conference in Kiev last year have recently formed the all-Ukraine strike committee.
As far as the “leading personalities” of the movement are concerned, we see the same thing as in Russia, Turkey, etc: politicians who are trying to put themselves at the head of the movement, but whom the great mass of protesters does not at all recognize as their leaders. Yes, there are various political currents in the movement, including Ukrainian nationalists (and also the Left, which is part of the “citizen sector” of the protesters), but the vast majority – as in Russia and elsewhere – are regular citizens, non-party political activists.
Kiev has already seen police violence (before the current clashes – RG ) causing dozens of injuries and several deaths (at least four); this means the movement will not stop half way and fade out. Besides, the President is inclined to give in to popular pressure (there is no doubt that Putin would have acted differently in his place!) So there is a good chance that the popular movement will triumph and, on the condition that the politicians don’t turn it to their own ends, will make the Ukraine a freer and more democratic country than it is today.
Je t’embrasse, Julia

[KeyserSoze]

Democracy's fourth wave? Well considering that this one is in an apparent 'third wave' country we'll see. Maybe that tells us more about the structure of ex-Soviet countries than anything else? idk

[William the White]

Democracy's fourth wave? Well considering that this one is in an apparent 'third wave' country we'll see. Maybe that tells us more about the structure of ex-Soviet countries than anything else? idk

Actually, despite trying hard, I don't understand this...

[a1]

third wave democracy ?

[Lost Leopard Spot]

third wave democracy ?

By Katrina

[bobo the clown]

Strange happenings today.

It seems like the President has left the building. He's now re-appeared in an Eastern city and announced that what has happened is effectively a coup.

He goes on to say he's the elected President and ain't resigning and (scarily) he will stop at nothing to prevent bloodshed I just fear that he's effectively inviting Russian troops in to help prevent that bloodshed.

========================
Reading more there's this ...

The heads of four Ukrainian security bodies have appeared in parliament to declare they would not take part in any conflict with the people.
They represented ;
the Paratroop unit of the military,
the "Berkut" anti-riot police,
Alfa special operations unit ..... and
Military intelligence.

Reading between the lines this suggests the President wanted the troops to go in & they've declined.

Earlier this week the Head of the Armed Forces was replaced, again I suspect because that guy hadn't been supportive enough.

This is very untidy.

[Beefheart]

All I know is, from talking to my Ukrainian Grandad that Ukrainians have a deep mistrust of Russia, with quite good reason historically speaking, such as the famine (or genocide depending on who you ask) and if you ever mention Communism in front of him he'll simply say 'Communists are liars!'.

[Little Green Man]

All I know is, from talking to my Ukrainian Grandad that Ukrainians have a deep mistrust of Russia, with quite good reason historically speaking, such as the famine (or genocide depending on who you ask) and if you ever mention Communism in front of him he'll simply say 'Communists are liars!'.

And in turn there'll be quite a few older Russians who won't forget that there were many Ukrainians who sided with the Nazis. You'd hope that kind of resentment is not something that eats away at the younger generation.

The ex-President is wrong to call it a coup. He's been shown the door by the parliament. That said, I suspect they only grew the necessary balls after the security forces pulled the rug from under him.

As for the future, they will have come to some sort of consitutional agreement that is satisfactory to both sides or there'll more upheaval. It's that or split the country down the middle.

[bobo the clown]

Freed Ukrainian opposition leader Yulia Tymoshenko, quoted by Interfax Ukraine at Kiev's Zhylyany airport, says all those behind the violence must be punished. She says: "We will not be worthy of the memory of the people who were killed and who opened the road for us, if we do not punish all those who deprived them of their lives, who took their lives, who beat the students, who beat our peaceful spiritual people."

Not exactly a Mandela moment then !!