Kiev

[Abdoulaye's Twin]

On the one hand I can't possibly see what they'd hope to gain; theirs isn't a nihilistic cause. On the other hand, whilst a plane flying at 23,000ft (the height at which I read the fighter planes were flying) and one an 33,000ft might seem confusable to you or me, presumably this sort of equipment is a bit more complex than point and fire, and so anybody using it would know what they were aiming at?

My take is that someone has had 5 minutes training on something that you probably normally get weeks of training on. This being the end result.

[Hoboh]

On the one hand I can't possibly see what they'd hope to gain; theirs isn't a nihilistic cause. On the other hand, whilst a plane flying at 23,000ft (the height at which I read the fighter planes were flying) and one an 33,000ft might seem confusable to you or me, presumably this sort of equipment is a bit more complex than point and fire, and so anybody using it would know what they were aiming at?

My take is that someone has had 5 minutes training on something that you probably normally get weeks of training on. This being the end result.

I reckon thats more than like a fair summary, still it brings the circle back of just wtf are they doing flying people over these zones to save a few bucks!

[Beefheart]

That's meaningless verbosity. Watered down culpability? What does that even mean?

What it fckg means is that the people who fired the fckg thing are the ones responsible for what happened and hand-wringing, finger pointing complicators are giving them excuses and watering down their responsibility by saying other people are to blame as well.

It was an approved flight path. Do you need me to explain what that even means ?

What excuse? I can't find another combination of words to express how there is no excuse. I can't see anybody offering an excuse.

There are two separate things here. 1)Responsibility for flying a plane over that area; and 2) Shooting down a passenger plane of innocents. They're independent questions.

All airlines that have flown over that area have taken unconscionable risks with their passengers' safety. The others have just got lucky.

All people who bring down passenger plane are vile wretches with no defence.

Are you incapable of considering those two separate ideas?

There's big pot of blame. That pot, whatever it's size is 100% of the blame.

I allocate 100% of that blame to the bastards who did this.

You appear to allocate a proportion of it .... let's say 10% for a working premise ... to people who chose to use an approved route. So, by doing that the missile launchers are only 90% to blame in your eyes. You've watered down their blame.

Are you incapable of seeing that ??

There isn't a pot of '100% of blame' to be divided up, because there are two issues at stake.

If a parent let their 4 year old child walk around a city centre at midnight, and the child was abducted and murdered. To say 'the parent shouldn't let the kid walk around like that' doesn't mean you apportion only 90% of the guilt to the murderer. They're still 100% guilty of murdering a child, and the parent is still 100% guilty of the much lesser 'crime', as it were, of letting the child walk about. They're separate issues and capable of being discussed as such. Clearly you wouldn't expect the behaviour of the parent to be the main issue or talking point, unless of course, someone tried to argument that the parent was completely blameless for anything !

So, as another example, in the instance of rape. Where a woman may have walked home alone at night, when there had been a rape in the same area that week, would you apportion any blame to the victim?

[Prufrock]

You're no longer comparing like and like. There's a fundamental difference in your example in that we aren't talking about owing a responsibility to a third-party.

I'm not talking about the airline having any guilt for the act. The airline has no guilt for the shooting down of the plane. The parent would have no guilt for the murder of the child, and in your case the woman has no guilt for the rape. I'm talking about people behaving irresponsibly towards others. In order to behave 'irresponsibly', you have to have a responsibility in the first place.

An airline has a responsibility to take all reasonable steps to ensure its passengers safety. I think that includes not flying over a zone where three fighter planes have been shot down in the last week by rebels with tanks and other military grade equipment.

A parent has a responsibility to take all reasonable steps to ensure the safety of his or her children. I think that includes not allowing the child to walk around a city centre late at night.

Who does the woman in your scenario owe a responsibility to? I don't think she owes a rapist a responsibility to not walk around at night near the location of a previous offence. No, a better example would be if you knew a female friend was going to be unknowingly walking home through an area where there'd been a rape in the last week. In that case, I know I'd damn well feel a responsibility to warn her of what had happened.

If the worst then happened the rapist would take 100% of the blame for his act, and it's still completely true for her to say 'I should be able to walk wherever I want without being raped'. She's not guilty of anything. And I'd not be guilty of failing to warn my friend of something she should have known about. In the same way, it's true for Malaysia Airlines to say 'it should be safe for us to fly our planes without them getting shot down', but it's also true to say 'it wasn't, and so Malaysia Airlines should not have put their passengers in that situation'.

[bobo the clown]

↑↑↑↑ Is it ambulance-chasing law you're doing ?

Just wondering. Coz that's the sort of argument they make.

[jaffka]

↑↑↑↑ Is it ambulance-chasing law you're doing ?

Just wondering. Coz that's the sort of argument they make.

+1

Fecking disgusting is my take on it

[Prufrock]

↑↑↑↑ Is it ambulance-chasing law you're doing ?

Just wondering. Coz that's the sort of argument they make.

Nope; I can't think of anything worse. Some of the practice in that area is awful. The notion that you owe others a duty of care is not nonsense though. It's a fundamental part of our legal system, has been for hundreds of years, and rightly so.

This is hardly a controversial sentence, is it? "An airline has a responsibility to take all reasonable steps to ensure its passengers safety. I think that includes not flying over a zone where three fighter planes have been shot down in the last week by rebels with tanks and other military grade equipment."

[Lost Leopard Spot]

We shouldn't have wars.
We shouldn't wish to have weapons.
We shouldn't have a culture where its ok to feck up the planet just coz you fancy a week or two in Lombok.
Shit happens.
Humans are shit.
Feck it, I really don't care anymore. Unless, of course, you're directly in my fexckin face.

[Montreal Wanderer]

We shouldn't have wars.
We shouldn't wish to have weapons.
We shouldn't have a culture where its ok to feck up the planet just coz you fancy a week or two in Lombok.
Shit happens.
Humans are shit.
Feck it, I really don't care anymore. Unless, of course, you're directly in my fexckin face, sitting om my pub seat puffing an ecig....

Fixed it for you.

[Hoboh]

David Cameron called for the EU and the west to change its approach to Russia if Putin does not alter course on Ukraine following the tragedy. The prime minister said: "This is a direct result of Russia destabilising a sovereign state, violating its territorial integrity, backing thuggish militias, and training and arming them. We must turn this moment of outrage into a moment of action."

So the EU, Nuland, Ashton and Blackwater type ops have nothing to do with it then Davey boy?
I hope Putin just tells you to go to hell next time you want something from the Russians, you embarrass this country.

[Lord Kangana]

Just to back Pru up. Duty of care is a legal obligation that an airline should undertake towards its passengers. Not flying over a known warzone would seem to constitute some sort of duty of care on their behalf. That the world is full of f*cking lawyers is partly down to so many people wishing to argue against such a simple point.

[a1]

it also didn't look like an F-14 .

get the ukraine in the eu tommorow for the lolz

[Hoboh]

I wonder if the Russians will be happy about Germany sending Paratroopers close to it's borders in Eastern Ukraine?

http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/b ... 95265.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Merkel's obsession is getting dangerous.

[Abdoulaye's Twin]

I wonder if the Russians will be happy about Germany sending Paratroopers close to it's borders in Eastern Ukraine?

http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/b ... 95265.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Merkel's obsession is getting dangerous.

Are those paratroopers in Germany still? Or does Putin own bits of other countries just because they are next to his?

I assume you never stand the boundary fences in your garden for fear of upsetting your neighbour

[Hoboh]

I wonder if the Russians will be happy about Germany sending Paratroopers close to it's borders in Eastern Ukraine?

http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/b ... 95265.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Merkel's obsession is getting dangerous.

Are those paratroopers in Germany still? Or does Putin own bits of other countries just because they are next to his?

I assume you never stand the boundary fences in your garden for fear of upsetting your neighbour

Very funny, my neighbor never invaded my land and brutally slaughtered my family, the Russians will never forget that!
Germany's involvement is nothing short of incitement to Russia, after all it was the German led EU that started all the problems off in Ukraine with their expansionist policies in the first place.
Defend an EU backed Nazi Ukrainian government and you might as well support ISIS, their aims are not much different.

Deutschland, Deutschland über alles, Germany, Germany above all,
Über alles in der Welt, Above all in the world,

Enough said.

[Worthy4England]

You don't half spout some shit.

[Abdoulaye's Twin]

What Worthy said ^^

[Prufrock]

I wonder if the Russians will be happy about Germany sending Paratroopers close to it's borders in Eastern Ukraine?

http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/b ... 95265.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Merkel's obsession is getting dangerous.

Are those paratroopers in Germany still? Or does Putin own bits of other countries just because they are next to his?

I assume you never stand the boundary fences in your garden for fear of upsetting your neighbour

Very funny, my neighbor never invaded my land and brutally slaughtered my family, the Russians will never forget that!
Germany's involvement is nothing short of incitement to Russia, after all it was the German led EU that started all the problems off in Ukraine with their expansionist policies in the first place.
Defend an EU backed Nazi Ukrainian government and you might as well support ISIS, their aims are not much different.

Deutschland, Deutschland über alles, Germany, Germany above all,
Über alles in der Welt, Above all in the world,

Enough said.

Ukraine wants you to stop objectifying her, Hoboh. She's a strong and independent woman, who doesn't need her European boyfriend or controlling Russian father making her decisions for her.

[Worthy4England]

Maybe Hobes would prefer us to remind China that HK was ours for a while...

[Montreal Wanderer]

I wonder if the Russians will be happy about Germany sending Paratroopers close to it's borders in Eastern Ukraine?

http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/b ... 95265.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Merkel's obsession is getting dangerous.

Are those paratroopers in Germany still? Or does Putin own bits of other countries just because they are next to his?

I assume you never stand the boundary fences in your garden for fear of upsetting your neighbour

Very funny, my neighbor never invaded my land and brutally slaughtered my family, the Russians will never forget that!
Germany's involvement is nothing short of incitement to Russia, after all it was the German led EU that started all the problems off in Ukraine with their expansionist policies in the first place.
Defend an EU backed Nazi Ukrainian government and you might as well support ISIS, their aims are not much different.

Deutschland, Deutschland über alles, Germany, Germany above all,
Über alles in der Welt, Above all in the world,

Enough said.

Probably more than enough, hobes.