European Second Referendum

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In or Out

IN (including all the rules and all the costs including increased costs).
7
44%
OUT (including a proper No Deal Brexit with no payment to the EU at all, and no more rule taking).
7
44%
MAY-be: or are you one of her followers?
2
13%
 
Total votes: 16

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European Second Referendum

Post by Lost Leopard Spot » Fri Nov 09, 2018 4:42 pm

Personally I'm all for it, providing that:
A) the choice is meaningful... i.e. between Brexit No Deal (at all) and EU Full Membership (with costs).
And that B) It takes place before we're rammed into this ridiculous arsehole concept of leaving but still paying and obeying all the stupid rules and having to abide by the CAfxvkinP and Fisheries policy, and free movement and ALL THE OTHER CRAP. That is the simple question, IN or OUT is asked before March 19th 2019.

Go for it. Most commentators on here will be no doubt stunned and dismayed by the result. But it's never going to happen, because the same rabbit in the headlights shite that is stunting decisions at the moment will inevitably rule out any courage to put forward such a Referendum.

So we'll never know.
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Re: European Second Referendum

Post by BWFC_Insane » Fri Nov 09, 2018 5:47 pm

Lost Leopard Spot wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 4:42 pm
Personally I'm all for it, providing that:
A) the choice is meaningful... i.e. between Brexit No Deal (at all) and EU Full Membership (with costs).
And that B) It takes place before we're rammed into this ridiculous arsehole concept of leaving but still paying and obeying all the stupid rules and having to abide by the CAfxvkinP and Fisheries policy, and free movement and ALL THE OTHER CRAP. That is the simple question, IN or OUT is asked before March 19th 2019.

Go for it. Most commentators on here will be no doubt stunned and dismayed by the result. But it's never going to happen, because the same rabbit in the headlights shite that is stunting decisions at the moment will inevitably rule out any courage to put forward such a Referendum.

So we'll never know.
I’d support it on that basis, but we’d need to know if article 50 can even legally be stopped now. Aren’t the government refusing to publish their legal advice on that as well as on the deal?

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Re: European Second Referendum

Post by Lost Leopard Spot » Fri Nov 09, 2018 6:04 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 5:47 pm
Lost Leopard Spot wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 4:42 pm
Personally I'm all for it, providing that:
A) the choice is meaningful... i.e. between Brexit No Deal (at all) and EU Full Membership (with costs).
And that B) It takes place before we're rammed into this ridiculous arsehole concept of leaving but still paying and obeying all the stupid rules and having to abide by the CAfxvkinP and Fisheries policy, and free movement and ALL THE OTHER CRAP. That is the simple question, IN or OUT is asked before March 19th 2019.

Go for it. Most commentators on here will be no doubt stunned and dismayed by the result. But it's never going to happen, because the same rabbit in the headlights shite that is stunting decisions at the moment will inevitably rule out any courage to put forward such a Referendum.

So we'll never know.
I’d support it on that basis, but we’d need to know if article 50 can even legally be stopped now. Aren’t the government refusing to publish their legal advice on that as well as on the deal?
The EU has quite categorically (with Legal Opinion) stated that if the UK withdraws Article 50, that's it, we Remain. They've also stated that our rebate will be nil and void.
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Re: European Second Referendum

Post by Abdoulaye's Twin » Fri Nov 09, 2018 8:31 pm

I think we should be leaving, but with a proper deal, not an incompetent not a deal at all. That's not going to happen, so let's have a referendum with both options laid bare and not open to interpretation.

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Re: European Second Referendum

Post by TANGODANCER » Fri Nov 09, 2018 8:57 pm

Abdoulaye's Twin wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 8:31 pm
I think we should be leaving, but with a proper deal, not an incompetent not a deal at all. That's not going to happen, so let's have a referendum with both options laid bare and not open to interpretation.
Which is what should have happened the first time instead of a coin-tossing vote.
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Re: European Second Referendum

Post by Lost Leopard Spot » Sat Nov 10, 2018 1:07 pm

Abdoulaye's Twin wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 8:31 pm
I think we should be leaving, but with a proper deal, not an incompetent not a deal at all. That's not going to happen, so let's have a referendum with both options laid bare and not open to interpretation.
But, but but... We will not get a deal from Europe. If we'd been the second to leave (after say, Greece or Hungary or Spain), then yes a deal would be possible. However, the Eurocentric ever increasingly centrified, Europhile super state-ers, want us to fail miserably in our endeavours.
Therefore the only real choice is between a No Deal Exit and a Take it up the fundament Remain.
I'm still for Exit. And I'll still support a second referendum even on those terms...
What I'm not going to support in any way whatsoever is some kind of bullshit second referendum where the choice is between a Norway deal and an half arsed exit which isn't an exit.
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Re: European Second Referendum

Post by Lost Leopard Spot » Thu Nov 15, 2018 4:32 pm

This, with with the three basic choices, needs to be before us before 19th March.
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Re: European Second Referendum

Post by BWFC_Insane » Thu Nov 15, 2018 4:43 pm

Lost Leopard Spot wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 4:32 pm
This, with with the three basic choices, needs to be before us before 19th March.
Have to delay article 50 then.

But yes. 80% of public support her deal claimed that nice person of a Tory MP today. Yougov actual poll conducted today suggests 19% back her deal! Less than a fifth.

May will claim "they haven't read it". Aye and you know what? They never, ever will.

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Re: European Second Referendum

Post by Lost Leopard Spot » Thu Nov 15, 2018 4:54 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 4:43 pm
Lost Leopard Spot wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 4:32 pm
This, with with the three basic choices, needs to be before us before 19th March.
Have to delay article 50 then.

But yes. 80% of public support her deal claimed that nice person of a Tory MP today. Yougov actual poll conducted today suggests 19% back her deal! Less than a fifth.

May will claim "they haven't read it". Aye and you know what? They never, ever will.
Well, I've just finished reading it.
It says, basically, bend over and take it up the arse: You will be a Euro Colony forever and a day.
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Re: European Second Referendum

Post by Lost Leopard Spot » Thu Nov 15, 2018 4:55 pm

Nay Surrendar
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Re: European Second Referendum

Post by Lost Leopard Spot » Fri Nov 23, 2018 2:05 pm

Here is a prediction.

May gets her 585 page legally binding "withdrawal agreement" and her 26 pages of non-legally binding weak, pathetic, agreement to have an agreement documents passed by Europe on Sunday (despite Spain and France throwing tantrums).
Parliament votes on this in December the something. Parliament passes said withdrawal agreement despite all 10 DUP MPs voting against, because Labour MPs roll over and have their bellies tickled and vote it in.
Labour combine with Liberals, SNP, and DUP and vote down all government legislation.
No Confidence vote in May is carried, but necessary number of MPs for general election cannot be found.
Queen invites Jeremy Corbyn to become PM with a minority administration.
Corbyn takes us out of EU on March 29th and immediately sets us on a course to be in a permanent customs union with the EU forevermore...
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Re: European Second Referendum

Post by TANGODANCER » Fri Nov 23, 2018 3:24 pm

Without any claims whatsoever to be one of the three wise men or to make it farcial (or at least more than it currently is) this whole brexit thing seems to me to be a bit Lion, Witch and Wardrobe. We, the UK, are the Lion (at least of legend), a certain person, er creature is cast as the icy-fingered Witch waiting out there,(not particularly English) and the Wardrobe door( found in a disused attic in No 10) is just waiting for somebody (Theresa?) to step into the snows of Narnia just to bid it goodbye then lock the wardrobe door and throw away the key. Trouble is, this tale hasn't been told yet and Aslan (read a brave sensible hero to step forth and save the day) may decide not to appear at all (we have a few like that) . In our tale Guinea pigs will be right at the front of our battalions and whether they'll be turned to stone or not is still up in the air. Another factor not in the original story is the question of the massive entrance fee we have to pay to get back into the safety of our wardrobe and lock out the legions of ghosties, ghoulies and things that go bump in the night predicted to forever haunt our dreams when we leave the magical land of Narnia (usually spelled "Europe") . The prime mandate on this particular book is that it will be a one-off adventure and Tom Cruise can't persuade the authors to re-write another dozen and sell him the copyrights because who says the hero has to be male? . Ah, well, just a flight of fancy and imagination that can safely be ignored. :D
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Re: European Second Referendum

Post by Lost Leopard Spot » Fri Nov 23, 2018 4:40 pm

Well, to be precise, it's this bit I'm predicting (the prior was obvious, and the post is inevitable once the prediction comes to pass)
Lost Leopard Spot wrote:
Fri Nov 23, 2018 2:05 pm
Parliament passes withdrawal agreement because Labour MPs roll over and vote it in.

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Re: European Second Referendum

Post by Lost Leopard Spot » Thu Dec 06, 2018 2:13 pm

Lost Leopard Spot wrote:
Fri Nov 23, 2018 2:05 pm
Here is a prediction.

May gets her 585 page legally binding "withdrawal agreement" and her 26 pages of non-legally binding weak, pathetic, agreement to have an agreement documents passed by Europe on Sunday (despite Spain and France throwing tantrums).
Parliament votes on this in December the something.
Parliament passes said withdrawal agreement despite all 10 DUP MPs voting against, because Labour MPs roll over and have their bellies tickled and vote it in.
Labour combine with Liberals, SNP, and DUP and vote down all government legislation.
No Confidence vote in May is carried, but necessary number of MPs for general election cannot be found.
Queen invites Jeremy Corbyn to become PM with a minority administration.
Corbyn takes us out of EU on March 29th and immediately sets us on a course to be in a permanent customs union with the EU forevermore...
The above, in bold, has come to pass. Five days to go and I still stick by the entire prediction even though newspaper headlines and commentators are claiming May will not get her Brexit vote passed by parliament ...
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Re: European Second Referendum

Post by Hoboh » Thu Dec 06, 2018 2:49 pm

Lost Leopard Spot wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 2:13 pm
Lost Leopard Spot wrote:
Fri Nov 23, 2018 2:05 pm
Here is a prediction.

May gets her 585 page legally binding "withdrawal agreement" and her 26 pages of non-legally binding weak, pathetic, agreement to have an agreement documents passed by Europe on Sunday (despite Spain and France throwing tantrums).
Parliament votes on this in December the something.
Parliament passes said withdrawal agreement despite all 10 DUP MPs voting against, because Labour MPs roll over and have their bellies tickled and vote it in.
Labour combine with Liberals, SNP, and DUP and vote down all government legislation.
No Confidence vote in May is carried, but necessary number of MPs for general election cannot be found.
Queen invites Jeremy Corbyn to become PM with a minority administration.
Corbyn takes us out of EU on March 29th and immediately sets us on a course to be in a permanent customs union with the EU forevermore...
The above, in bold, has come to pass. Five days to go and I still stick by the entire prediction even though newspaper headlines and commentators are claiming May will not get her Brexit vote passed by parliament ...
Don't think the Queen and Corbyn will come to pass nor May succeeding getting the deal through.
I'd reckon no confidence vote which HMG will win then removal of May by the Tories with Brexit delayed by 6 months to give time for EU/UK talks under new PM.

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Re: European Second Referendum

Post by Lost Leopard Spot » Thu Dec 06, 2018 3:05 pm

Hoboh wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 2:49 pm
Lost Leopard Spot wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 2:13 pm
Lost Leopard Spot wrote:
Fri Nov 23, 2018 2:05 pm
Here is a prediction.

May gets her 585 page legally binding "withdrawal agreement" and her 26 pages of non-legally binding weak, pathetic, agreement to have an agreement documents passed by Europe on Sunday (despite Spain and France throwing tantrums).
Parliament votes on this in December the something.
Parliament passes said withdrawal agreement despite all 10 DUP MPs voting against, because Labour MPs roll over and have their bellies tickled and vote it in.
Labour combine with Liberals, SNP, and DUP and vote down all government legislation.
No Confidence vote in May is carried, but necessary number of MPs for general election cannot be found.
Queen invites Jeremy Corbyn to become PM with a minority administration.
Corbyn takes us out of EU on March 29th and immediately sets us on a course to be in a permanent customs union with the EU forevermore...
The above, in bold, has come to pass. Five days to go and I still stick by the entire prediction even though newspaper headlines and commentators are claiming May will not get her Brexit vote passed by parliament ...
Don't think the Queen and Corbyn will come to pass nor May succeeding getting the deal through.
I'd reckon no confidence vote which HMG will win then removal of May by the Tories with Brexit delayed by 6 months to give time for EU/UK talks under new PM.
Interesting... But, I don't understand the mechanism that would allow Brexit to be delayed. March 29th is automatic, especially if no leader (PM) is in place, unless EU agrees, which they won't.
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Re: European Second Referendum

Post by Lost Leopard Spot » Thu Dec 06, 2018 4:08 pm

Lost Leopard Spot wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 3:05 pm
Hoboh wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 2:49 pm
Lost Leopard Spot wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 2:13 pm
Lost Leopard Spot wrote:
Fri Nov 23, 2018 2:05 pm
Here is a prediction.

May gets her 585 page legally binding "withdrawal agreement" and her 26 pages of non-legally binding weak, pathetic, agreement to have an agreement documents passed by Europe on Sunday (despite Spain and France throwing tantrums).
Parliament votes on this in December the something.
Parliament passes said withdrawal agreement despite all 10 DUP MPs voting against, because Labour MPs roll over and have their bellies tickled and vote it in.
Labour combine with Liberals, SNP, and DUP and vote down all government legislation.
No Confidence vote in May is carried, but necessary number of MPs for general election cannot be found.
Queen invites Jeremy Corbyn to become PM with a minority administration.
Corbyn takes us out of EU on March 29th and immediately sets us on a course to be in a permanent customs union with the EU forevermore...
The above, in bold, has come to pass. Five days to go and I still stick by the entire prediction even though newspaper headlines and commentators are claiming May will not get her Brexit vote passed by parliament ...
Don't think the Queen and Corbyn will come to pass nor May succeeding getting the deal through.
I'd reckon no confidence vote which HMG will win then removal of May by the Tories with Brexit delayed by 6 months to give time for EU/UK talks under new PM.
Interesting... But, I don't understand the mechanism that would allow Brexit to be delayed. March 29th is automatic, especially if no leader (PM) is in place, unless EU agrees, which they won't.
...And why won't they agree?
France: in turmoil over taxes - they of all countries want to punish a Brexit, I mean really, viscerally want to punish us.
Germany: bye, bye Merkel. Nobody in charge to approve a delay.
Italy: They are in their own Italexit scenario, but fiscally from Eurozone rules - they don't give a sod about Brexit and won't lift a finger to help conciliation.
Spain: defeated by the other 26 over a Gibraltar clause will throw their (very sparse) democratic toys out of their fascist pram, and refuse further compromise, including extension.
Hungary, Poland: Undergoing their own revolt against the EU, don't want the UK to succeed in leaving, and have too many expats here to want to see us succeed economically as well, otherwise they'll see a Slav drain to anywhere but their home countries. Therefore will not support a delay which would possibly allow what they fear.
Estonia, Latvia, etc.: They rely on NATO, and the UK against the Russian beast. They want an end to whether or not they can still rely on us - why would an extension help the dilemma. It won't and they won't agree to it.
And also, oh yes, in March guess which country holds the Presidency of the EU? Romania: corrupt hardly nails that country's lack of political morality - they'll want to display a nail hard attitude to hide their soft weak shite centre.
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Re: European Second Referendum

Post by BWFC_Insane » Thu Dec 06, 2018 4:20 pm

Lost Leopard Spot wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 3:05 pm
Hoboh wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 2:49 pm
Lost Leopard Spot wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 2:13 pm
Lost Leopard Spot wrote:
Fri Nov 23, 2018 2:05 pm
Here is a prediction.

May gets her 585 page legally binding "withdrawal agreement" and her 26 pages of non-legally binding weak, pathetic, agreement to have an agreement documents passed by Europe on Sunday (despite Spain and France throwing tantrums).
Parliament votes on this in December the something.
Parliament passes said withdrawal agreement despite all 10 DUP MPs voting against, because Labour MPs roll over and have their bellies tickled and vote it in.
Labour combine with Liberals, SNP, and DUP and vote down all government legislation.
No Confidence vote in May is carried, but necessary number of MPs for general election cannot be found.
Queen invites Jeremy Corbyn to become PM with a minority administration.
Corbyn takes us out of EU on March 29th and immediately sets us on a course to be in a permanent customs union with the EU forevermore...
The above, in bold, has come to pass. Five days to go and I still stick by the entire prediction even though newspaper headlines and commentators are claiming May will not get her Brexit vote passed by parliament ...
Don't think the Queen and Corbyn will come to pass nor May succeeding getting the deal through.
I'd reckon no confidence vote which HMG will win then removal of May by the Tories with Brexit delayed by 6 months to give time for EU/UK talks under new PM.
Interesting... But, I don't understand the mechanism that would allow Brexit to be delayed. March 29th is automatic, especially if no leader (PM) is in place, unless EU agrees, which they won't.
There have been hints from the EU that they would allow a delay on A50. I think personally they will do anything to avoid no deal (as will we) so IF this deal is rejected heavily by parliament - to the point that parliament would demand a significant change to the legal document (as opposed to a smaller defeat numbers wise where a change to the non binding future relationship document might convince a handful to change their minds) then the only options will be no deal or extension of A50 as there is not time to renegotiate a substantial withdrawal agreement before March.

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Re: European Second Referendum

Post by Lost Leopard Spot » Thu Dec 06, 2018 4:24 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 4:20 pm
Lost Leopard Spot wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 3:05 pm
Hoboh wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 2:49 pm
Lost Leopard Spot wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 2:13 pm
Lost Leopard Spot wrote:
Fri Nov 23, 2018 2:05 pm
Here is a prediction.

May gets her 585 page legally binding "withdrawal agreement" and her 26 pages of non-legally binding weak, pathetic, agreement to have an agreement documents passed by Europe on Sunday (despite Spain and France throwing tantrums).
Parliament votes on this in December the something.
Parliament passes said withdrawal agreement despite all 10 DUP MPs voting against, because Labour MPs roll over and have their bellies tickled and vote it in.
Labour combine with Liberals, SNP, and DUP and vote down all government legislation.
No Confidence vote in May is carried, but necessary number of MPs for general election cannot be found.
Queen invites Jeremy Corbyn to become PM with a minority administration.
Corbyn takes us out of EU on March 29th and immediately sets us on a course to be in a permanent customs union with the EU forevermore...
The above, in bold, has come to pass. Five days to go and I still stick by the entire prediction even though newspaper headlines and commentators are claiming May will not get her Brexit vote passed by parliament ...
Don't think the Queen and Corbyn will come to pass nor May succeeding getting the deal through.
I'd reckon no confidence vote which HMG will win then removal of May by the Tories with Brexit delayed by 6 months to give time for EU/UK talks under new PM.
Interesting... But, I don't understand the mechanism that would allow Brexit to be delayed. March 29th is automatic, especially if no leader (PM) is in place, unless EU agrees, which they won't.
There have been hints from the EU that they would allow a delay on A50. I think personally they will do anything to avoid no deal (as will we) so IF this deal is rejected heavily by parliament - to the point that parliament would demand a significant change to the legal document (as opposed to a smaller defeat numbers wise where a change to the non binding future relationship document might convince a handful to change their minds) then the only options will be no deal or extension of A50 as there is not time to renegotiate a substantial withdrawal agreement before March.
But a delay won't be up to Barnier. It will be up to the Presidency... (see my reservations in post above yours).
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Re: European Second Referendum

Post by Hoboh » Thu Dec 06, 2018 4:28 pm

As part of .y prediction I missed, the EU will agree to delay on the premise of their famous second referendum taking place.

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