European Second Referendum

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In or Out

IN (including all the rules and all the costs including increased costs).
7
44%
OUT (including a proper No Deal Brexit with no payment to the EU at all, and no more rule taking).
7
44%
MAY-be: or are you one of her followers?
2
13%
 
Total votes: 16

Enoch
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Re: European Second Referendum

Post by Enoch » Tue Apr 02, 2019 1:49 am

Montreal Wanderer wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 1:38 am
Actually this is what we did in Canada nearly 40 years ago. Nafta and other trade deals signaled the death of the clothing (rag trade) and furniture making industries in Quebec. We put our R&D into hi-tech where we could compete. We are a world centre for aeronautical engineering and computer gaming for example, and no one regrets the passing of the rag trade (where Portuguese women immigrants slaved a way for very little). I guess the theory is short-term pain for long-term gain. It worked here but there was unhappiness at first.
For me, here's the rub, Monty. When folk have a positive attitude stuff tends to work out. When you have folk minding their own narrow self interest, or navel gazing, f*ck all gets done.

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Re: European Second Referendum

Post by Montreal Wanderer » Tue Apr 02, 2019 2:24 am

Enoch wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 1:49 am
Montreal Wanderer wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 1:38 am
Actually this is what we did in Canada nearly 40 years ago. Nafta and other trade deals signaled the death of the clothing (rag trade) and furniture making industries in Quebec. We put our R&D into hi-tech where we could compete. We are a world centre for aeronautical engineering and computer gaming for example, and no one regrets the passing of the rag trade (where Portuguese women immigrants slaved a way for very little). I guess the theory is short-term pain for long-term gain. It worked here but there was unhappiness at first.
For me, here's the rub, Monty. When folk have a positive attitude stuff tends to work out. When you have folk minding their own narrow self interest, or navel gazing, f*ck all gets done.
Indeed, to be fair Enoch, many did not react well at the time. It took a while to become positive. The government put significant sums in to education (or retraining programs). My four children work in hi-tech fields because of their education. I had to move from a low-tech to hi-tech environment in my '40s. It wasn't so easy for me and lot harder for many others, but we all handled the paradigm shift with some assistance.
"If you cannot answer a man's argument, all it not lost; you can still call him vile names. " Elbert Hubbard.
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Re: European Second Referendum

Post by BWFC_Insane » Tue Apr 02, 2019 9:11 am

Montreal Wanderer wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 1:38 am
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Mon Apr 01, 2019 3:29 pm
The reality is that Minford isn't saying much different to all the others - he's just presenting a political case for why we should just feck off farming, and manufacturing in this country and let those industries rot.
Actually this is what we did in Canada nearly 40 years ago. Nafta and other trade deals signaled the death of the clothing (rag trade) and furniture making industries in Quebec. We put our R&D into hi-tech where we could compete. We are a world centre for aeronautical engineering and computer gaming for example, and no one regrets the passing of the rag trade (where Portuguese women immigrants slaved a way for very little). I guess the theory is short-term pain for long-term gain. It worked here but there was unhappiness at first.
Indeed. The problem is that the people generally who voted for Brexit did so in part because they felt EU neoliberalism was hurting their chances of employment. Now whilst we'd end freedom of movement the reality would be if you followed the line of Minford (the ERG economist) then we'd simply be replacing EU neoliberal economics with rampant UK led neoliberal economics that were even more severe. So all those people in deprived areas who complain about a London led finance and service dominated economy would be getting that ramped up to 100. And the manufacturing jobs of the North would all go (because that's the plan) along with agriculture and many other industries that would be unable to be efficient in the post-Brexit world.

Such a scenario would be the exact opposite of what many in the North East (who voted for Brexit in their numbers) envisage.

If you boil it down the issue is thus: the parts of our country that voted for Brexit in the highest numbers are also the parts most served by the customs union and the single market. I'm unconvinced many of those people realise this yet because in my humble opinion they've been fed lies by a right wing dominated media and a set of elite, rich politicians who in the main will gain financially from Brexit. It is why you've seen the entire shift of language from pre-referendum talking about how great economically we'd be if we left to now where not a single prominent Brexiteer will discuss economics anymore. They simply say "its our sovereignty and democracy". My personal view is those people in Sunderland will not care one bit about sovereignty if their manufacturing industries collapse or slowly contract and their jobs go. They won't care that in theory we can set our own regulations (but we likely can't cos of Ireland...). They just will not care. And if it comes down to it and Boris led government decide to reduce employment rights across the board cos it makes their rich mates more money and being out of the EU allows them to do it, no doubt they will be furious. But I wonder how long it will take them to work it out?

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Re: European Second Referendum

Post by Hoboh » Tue Apr 02, 2019 11:10 am

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"Taking back control"

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Re: European Second Referendum

Post by Hoboh » Tue Apr 02, 2019 11:47 am

Why is it the huge number of confident they are the vast majority of remainers won't vote for a second referendum or a GE?

Fingers burnt last time they were so cocky?

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Re: European Second Referendum

Post by BWFC_Insane » Tue Apr 02, 2019 11:58 am

Hoboh wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 11:47 am
Why is it the huge number of confident they are the vast majority of remainers won't vote for a second referendum or a GE?

Fingers burnt last time they were so cocky?
What? Who won't vote for a 2nd referendum or GE?

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Re: European Second Referendum

Post by Hoboh » Tue Apr 02, 2019 12:02 pm

BWFC_Insane wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 11:58 am
Hoboh wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 11:47 am
Why is it the huge number of confident they are the vast majority of remainers won't vote for a second referendum or a GE?

Fingers burnt last time they were so cocky?
What? Who won't vote for a 2nd referendum or GE?
400 or so remainer MP's and they failed to win a vote for it

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Re: European Second Referendum

Post by BWFC_Insane » Tue Apr 02, 2019 1:09 pm

Hoboh wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 12:02 pm
BWFC_Insane wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 11:58 am
Hoboh wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 11:47 am
Why is it the huge number of confident they are the vast majority of remainers won't vote for a second referendum or a GE?

Fingers burnt last time they were so cocky?
What? Who won't vote for a 2nd referendum or GE?
400 or so remainer MP's and they failed to win a vote for it
They aren't all remainer MPs though. Those who are voted for it. Those who aren't didn't.

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Re: European Second Referendum

Post by Hoboh » Tue Apr 02, 2019 4:12 pm

Two thirds of the house are remain in one form or another and they cannot get a second referendum over the line, why?
I suspect because they know deep down that the opinion of voters does not match theirs in the numbers remain bandied about.
I always thought we would leave with a deal just not a semi erection like Mays stupid negotiations, the time has come for no deal to focus minds on all sides the 13th 14th 15th etc will still happen nor will ww3 breakout.

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Re: European Second Referendum

Post by Lost Leopard Spot » Tue Apr 02, 2019 4:22 pm

Hoboh wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 4:12 pm
Two thirds of the house are remain in one form or another and they cannot get a second referendum over the line, why?
I suspect because they know deep down that the opinion of voters does not match theirs in the numbers remain bandied about.
I always thought we would leave with a deal just not a semi erection like Mays stupid negotiations, the time has come for no deal to focus minds on all sides the 13th 14th 15th etc will still happen nor will ww3 breakout.
Hoboh!
I am passionately now for a No Deal Brexit.
But, mate: it isn't going to happen.
Remainer May will prefer to push her party to suicide rather than go down that route.
We are going to have elections, no doubt.

For the local elections I will be standing.

For parliamentary elections I have asked whether the DUP will be fielding candidates on the GB mainland now that the Conservative and Unionist Party are no longer that...

For European elections I have put forward candidacy for the as yet to form Brexit Party.

For a second referendum that decides between Remain and semi-remain I will be pouring a bottle of Mr Muscle drain cleaner into the ballot box

#wecanallfrustratedemocracy
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Re: European Second Referendum

Post by Enoch » Tue Apr 02, 2019 4:56 pm

Lost Leopard Spot wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 4:22 pm
For European elections I have put forward candidacy for the as yet to form Brexit Party.

Brexit Party was launched on 20 January 2019 and registered with the United Kingdom Electoral Commission on 5 February 2019.

An article in Private Eye reported that opponents of Brexit had applied online as "candidates, activists or donors with false details". I remember how well similar tactics worked when deployed in the run up to an election in September 2015.

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Re: European Second Referendum

Post by Lost Leopard Spot » Tue Apr 02, 2019 5:03 pm

Enoch wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 4:56 pm
Lost Leopard Spot wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 4:22 pm
For European elections I have put forward candidacy for the as yet to form Brexit Party.

Brexit Party was launched on 20 January 2019 and registered with the United Kingdom Electoral Commission on 5 February 2019.

An article in Private Eye reported that opponents of Brexit had applied online as "candidates, activists or donors with false details". I remember how well similar tactics worked when deployed in the run up to an election in September 2015.
I have absolutely no doubt that, whether it exists or not, that my candidacy for a party that has yet to form (or may have formed but isn't yet constituted), will be accepted, is optimistic beyond idiocy.

I am hedging my bets on Mr Muscle in the ballot box (#wecanallfrustratedemocracy).
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Re: European Second Referendum

Post by Enoch » Tue Apr 02, 2019 5:47 pm

Lost Leopard Spot wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 5:03 pm
Enoch wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 4:56 pm
Lost Leopard Spot wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 4:22 pm
For European elections I have put forward candidacy for the as yet to form Brexit Party.

Brexit Party was launched on 20 January 2019 and registered with the United Kingdom Electoral Commission on 5 February 2019.

An article in Private Eye reported that opponents of Brexit had applied online as "candidates, activists or donors with false details". I remember how well similar tactics worked when deployed in the run up to an election in September 2015.
I have absolutely no doubt that, whether it exists or not, that my candidacy for a party that has yet to form (or may have formed but isn't yet constituted), will be accepted, is optimistic beyond idiocy.

I am hedging my bets on Mr Muscle in the ballot box (#wecanallfrustratedemocracy).
Not only does it exist, it boasts 9 MEPs, 2 more than UKIP, making it the 3rd largest UK party in the European Parliament.

I reckon your application would be looked on favourably.

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Re: European Second Referendum

Post by Lost Leopard Spot » Tue Apr 02, 2019 6:04 pm

Belgians around me saying Maybe May about to yet again not make a statement... maybe.
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Re: European Second Referendum

Post by Lost Leopard Spot » Tue Apr 02, 2019 6:11 pm

Lost Leopard Spot wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 6:04 pm
Belgians around me saying Maybe May about to yet again not make a statement... maybe.
Belgians telling me she's talking bollocks again. Basically trying to blame us not leaving on Corbyn's head ... :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: European Second Referendum

Post by Lost Leopard Spot » Tue Apr 02, 2019 6:23 pm

Lost Leopard Spot wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 6:11 pm
Lost Leopard Spot wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 6:04 pm
Belgians around me saying Maybe May about to yet again not make a statement... maybe.
Belgians telling me she's talking bollocks again. Basically trying to blame us not leaving on Corbyn's head ... :lol: :lol: :lol:
Oh my, just heard her actual waffle. What a truly deeply ineffective vacuous arsehole she is.
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Re: European Second Referendum

Post by Enoch » Tue Apr 02, 2019 6:52 pm

Barnier can't have heard that we're all lovey-dovey now.

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Re: European Second Referendum

Post by Enoch » Tue Apr 02, 2019 7:12 pm

I hadn't noticed that 'The Brexit Party' has a fellow traveller in 'Brexit Express'.

Brexit Express is a politcal party founded by Jeremy Hosking and registered with the Electoral Commission on 13/03/2019. It was apparently founded as a refuge for disaffected Conservative MPs. Good luck with that, Jeremy.

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Re: European Second Referendum

Post by Enoch » Tue Apr 02, 2019 7:17 pm

Barroness Armstrong speaking to Michel Barnier in the European Parliament.

Now that was embarrassing. If you're shit at public speaking, feed your thoughts to someone that isn't!

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Re: European Second Referendum

Post by BWFC_Insane » Wed Apr 03, 2019 9:08 am

Lost Leopard Spot wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 6:23 pm
Lost Leopard Spot wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 6:11 pm
Lost Leopard Spot wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 6:04 pm
Belgians around me saying Maybe May about to yet again not make a statement... maybe.
Belgians telling me she's talking bollocks again. Basically trying to blame us not leaving on Corbyn's head ... :lol: :lol: :lol:
Oh my, just heard her actual waffle. What a truly deeply ineffective vacuous arsehole she is.
Again a point we can agree on. Now we have her and Corbyn in a room trying to solve Brexit - god help us.

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