Top British sportsmen of all time

[TANGODANCER]

Then there's the greatest "1, not out" to consider,,

[Worthy4England]

Then there's the greatest "1, not out" to consider,,

Indeed, the man who allowed Ben to flourish. An innings every bit as important as the one at the other end, if maybe not likely to be remembered quite the same way.

[Harry Genshaw]

Hoy, Kenny & Wiggans
Redgrave & Pinsent
Thompson & Farah
Benn (for his take all comers attitude rather than boxing ability)
Keegan
Hamilton

[Prufrock]

Can't believe I forgot Lewis! Talk about disadvantages...

Always blows my mind that they keep firing through all these trust fund non-entities. Like you've had one black driver ever, one of only a handful of working class and a handful of non-white drivers, and he just so happens to be arguably the best of all time. You might want to cast your net a bit wider.

[BWFC_Insane]

Can't believe I forgot Lewis! Talk about disadvantages...

Always blows my mind that they keep firing through all these trust fund non-entities. Like you've had one black driver ever, one of only a handful of working class and a handful of non-white drivers, and he just so happens to be arguably the best of all time. You might want to cast your net a bit wider.

Can't be Hamilton as he doesn't have to even run!

[Abdoulaye's Twin]

Can't believe I forgot Lewis! Talk about disadvantages...

Always blows my mind that they keep firing through all these trust fund non-entities. Like you've had one black driver ever, one of only a handful of working class and a handful of non-white drivers, and he just so happens to be arguably the best of all time. You might want to cast your net a bit wider.

Can't be Hamilton as he doesn't have to even run!

Plus, the car has a huge input to success.

For me, the measure is dominating a sport for a sustained period. Murray is unfortunate to play in the era he did and hasn't dominated. For me, you have to look at the likes of Phil Taylor or Steve Redgrave. Both dominated their sport for a freakish amount of time

[Worthy4England]

Yeah - they're good calls, all Cavendish, Taylor, Redgrave. Not sure may people said Schumacher was shite when he was in a very good car. And as for the car, by all reports, Murray's knee probably wouldn't last a lap at full g force!

Mo Farah did child labour and was trafficked from Somalia.

[BWFC_Insane]

Can't believe I forgot Lewis! Talk about disadvantages...

Always blows my mind that they keep firing through all these trust fund non-entities. Like you've had one black driver ever, one of only a handful of working class and a handful of non-white drivers, and he just so happens to be arguably the best of all time. You might want to cast your net a bit wider.

Can't be Hamilton as he doesn't have to even run!

Plus, the car has a huge input to success.

For me, the measure is dominating a sport for a sustained period. Murray is unfortunate to play in the era he did and hasn't dominated. For me, you have to look at the likes of Phil Taylor or Steve Redgrave. Both dominated their sport for a freakish amount of time

Yeah and say Laura Kenny too.

But I'm not convinced that 'dominating' a sport necessarily is the right metric. I see the argument sure - and can go with it.

But then for example - I don't think Ben Stokes 'dominates' cricket but he's probably on my list. And I think Murray's achievements relative to his origins and the era he's played in are beyond remarkable and for me in excess of rowers and cyclists in terms of opportunity - because frankly we support lots of very good rowers and cyclists! Not to take anything away from them and it all comes down to perspective.

[TANGODANCER]

Jason and Laura Kenny are a good shout, Jason's parents used to live about a hundred yards from me at one time.

[Harry Genshaw]

I may have included Laura but the topic is Sportsmen. We do still have, for now at least, 2 gender sports

[Worthy4England]

Yeah and say Laura Kenny too.

I know, strange things happen this day and age, but fairly sure she hasn't yet started identifying as a sportsman...

[Worthy4England]

And I think Murray's achievements relative to his origins and the era he's played in are beyond remarkable and for me in excess of rowers and cyclists in terms of opportunity - because frankly we support lots of very good rowers and cyclists! Not to take anything away from them and it all comes down to perspective.

Yes - most kids playing tennis get to start with a mother who played professional tennis and is a tennis coach. Similarly, they're then taken onboard by the Head of Performance for tennis Scotland at the age of 11 as coach and get to play in the junior orange bowl in Florida. They pretty much all end up on the ITF juniors circuit, just for looking at a racket.

I'm not saying Murray hasn't been very, very good as a tennis player and maybe he deserves to be in the top 10, but most kids aren't getting those types of breaks, from playing on the local park as their "origins"

[BWFC_Insane]

And I think Murray's achievements relative to his origins and the era he's played in are beyond remarkable and for me in excess of rowers and cyclists in terms of opportunity - because frankly we support lots of very good rowers and cyclists! Not to take anything away from them and it all comes down to perspective.

Yes - most kids playing tennis get to start with a mother who played professional tennis and is a tennis coach. Similarly, they're then taken onboard by the Head of Performance for tennis Scotland at the age of 11 as coach and get to play in the junior orange bowl in Florida. They pretty much all end up on the ITF juniors circuit, just for looking at a racket.

I'm not saying Murray hasn't been very, very good as a tennis player and maybe he deserves to be in the top 10, but most kids aren't getting those types of breaks, from playing on the local park as their "origins"

But I think its true that most elite sports stars have some advantage at an early age. Its hard to imagine someone with no tennis interest in their family taking the sport up early enough to rise to the top. But we're talking significant structural disadvantages here that have demonstrated themselves in the lack of British success since the war (on the mens side). I mean you argue 'he moved country at 15' but that's the point isn't it? How many Brits who are good at tennis maybe don't drive themselves that much so as to move country as a teenager to simply be better? And the fact you have to sort of underlines my point.

We'll never agree on this but the thing for me is that Murray wasn't blessed with huge natural ability - in the way a Federer or Nadal maybe were. He basically got there through his sheer will to succeed. And against more odds than the majority of players who rise to number 1 have faced.

Ultimately this will all be opinion - I have a different one and I see your view - and you're not a tennis fan - in the same way F1 bores me to tears so wouldn't put any drivers in my list personally!

[Harry Genshaw]

Those issues are largely down to the LTA. Make shedloads every year which is supposed to go back into grassroots and they've produced what? Murray was successful because he didn't come via their route.

Touching on Pru's point about Hamilton - potential British tennis champions are out there. Just not in the leafy suburbs where the LTA are looking!

[Worthy4England]

Murray is a great tennis player. I just think there's some suspension of disbelief when comparing him with other great tennis players of the same era and protesting he had nowt going for him, and they had everything! Bottom line for me is he's just not quite as good. I'm ok with tennis (albeit wouldn't call me a fan) and I don't watch F1, other than very situationally (so when Hamilton was in the last race he got cheated out of to Verstappen, I saw that one). In tennis, I'd much rather watch Nastase v Borg than what we see currently. For me the game died around the time of pistol Pete.

[Worthy4England]

Those issues are largely down to the LTA. Make shedloads every year which is supposed to go back into grassroots and they've produced what? Murray was successful because he didn't come via their route.

Touching on Pru's point about Hamilton - potential British tennis champions are out there. Just not in the leafy suburbs where the LTA are looking!

Yeah - that's my point, too. Comparatively, had Murray been a kid playing on the park with black pumps on, we might never had heard of him - although I suspect that's true of many countries...and certainly many sports.

[jimbo]

Can't believe I forgot Lewis! Talk about disadvantages...

Always blows my mind that they keep firing through all these trust fund non-entities. Like you've had one black driver ever, one of only a handful of working class and a handful of non-white drivers, and he just so happens to be arguably the best of all time. You might want to cast your net a bit wider.

Can't be Hamilton as he doesn't have to even run!

Plus, the car has a huge input to success.

For me, the measure is dominating a sport for a sustained period. Murray is unfortunate to play in the era he did and hasn't dominated. For me, you have to look at the likes of Phil Taylor or Steve Redgrave. Both dominated their sport for a freakish amount of time

Yeah and say Laura Kenny too.

But I'm not convinced that 'dominating' a sport necessarily is the right metric. I see the argument sure - and can go with it.

But then for example - I don't think Ben Stokes 'dominates' cricket but he's probably on my list. And I think Murray's achievements relative to his origins and the era he's played in are beyond remarkable and for me in excess of rowers and cyclists in terms of opportunity - because frankly we support lots of very good rowers and cyclists! Not to take anything away from them and it all comes down to perspective.

I think dominating a sport has to come into it. If you ask any cycling fan who the greatest sprinter of all time is, everyone will say Cavendish. They probably will still say that in 20 years time.

There’s also vibes / patriotism too. A lot of the Olympians mentioned are good athletes and have achieved a lot from a GB athletics point of view, but will have made relatively little impact beyond here and certainly won’t be talked about in a generation by people overseas. (How many people around the world still venerate Daley Thompson, Tessa Sanderson or Torvill and Dean?). I’m not dismissing that as an argument as a lot of the response to sporting achievement is visceral rather than stats / numbers based, and the whole country uniting behind Daley Thompson for a couple of days is a huge thing. While Cavendish has utterly dominated, it’s still been in a minority sport in the UK and he’s not made that much of a wide impact.

[Worthy4England]

Yeah, I'm starting to think this is quite tricky.

I mean I've heard of Cavendish, probably watched the odd bit of the tour, but if asked to say who I thought the best British male cyclist was, I'd have probably (and maybe not very knowledgeably) probably have said Wiggins.. (apols in advance )

[jimbo]

Yeah, I'm starting to think this is quite tricky.

I mean I've heard of Cavendish, probably watched the odd bit of the tour, but if asked to say who I thought the best British male cyclist was, I'd have probably (and maybe not very knowledgeably) probably have said Wiggins.. (apols in advance )

I think Cavendish struggles for not having the Olympic success. Majority of UK cycling knowledge is from the track, whereas he’s carved out a career away from that. His numbers are staggering though. Darrigade held the record for stage wins at the tour for a sprinter (22) for 50 years. Cavendish beat that in 2013, and now has 34. He’s won 50% more than the next guy.

In Cavendish’s career there is only Kittel who has consistently challenged him. Kittel has won 14 stages and is still regarded as a sprinting great.

Cavendish has made a career in a sport where we had no history really. He was winning stages from 2008, so way before the 2012 Wiggins peak and has done it his own way. Across the cycling world he’ll be forever viewed as the best. Wiggins and Thomas’ legacies will have long faded and they’ll be placed among dozens of other one time Tour winners.

[Worthy4England]

When you say cycling world does that include track and Olympics etc? Or are they regarded in similar vein to me with Test cricket vs ODI/T20 cricket? (There's a true test and then there's very popular "short form") Not really very close to it.