Cricket World Cup

[Worthy4England]

Well, we've set Netherlands a target, which is good. Good knock from Stokes. Our batting has had some very large failures in this WC - looking at the current averages with 1 to play...

Malan - been broadly consistent at 47.
Stokes with a rescue mission against Netherlands 44.
Atkinson, 37,
Wood, Brook 28
Root 27
Willy 21
Bairstow 19.5
Woakes 18
Ali 17
Rashid 15
Buttler 14

I think for some of those, this is the last hurrah...

[TANGODANCER]

Versus Nederland? What would John Motson have said...?

[Worthy4England]

Versus Nederland? What would John Motson have said...?

I just think he'd be sighing in relief. It's moved us up to 7th on the mighty coat tails of Afghanistan (who we can't catch) but it's done our RR a world of good meaning we might have a chance of qualifying for the 2025 Champions (hahaha) Trophy

[BWFC_Insane]

Well, we've set Netherlands a target, which is good. Good knock from Stokes. Our batting has had some very large failures in this WC - looking at the current averages with 1 to play...

Malan - been broadly consistent at 47.
Stokes with a rescue mission against Netherlands 44.
Atkinson, 37,
Wood, Brook 28
Root 27
Willy 21
Bairstow 19.5
Woakes 18
Ali 17
Rashid 15
Buttler 14

I think for some of those, this is the last hurrah...

Ali for sure. Rashid probably too. Root in this format maybe? Stokes I doubt will play this format going forward.

So yeah fair few will need replacing with the yoof.

[Worthy4England]

I'm wondering about Bairstow and Buttler too - 19.5 and 14...I think possibly Captaincy has got to Jos

[BWFC_Insane]

I'm wondering about Bairstow and Buttler too - 19.5 and 14...I think possibly Captaincy has got to Jos

Buttler might retire but if not he’s one of the best one day players ever and two years ago captained England to the T20 World Cup win. No way would he be jettisoned off the back of one horrendous World Cup.

Not yet at least.

Bairstow similarly I think if he wants to will be able to hang around.

[Worthy4England]

Yeah - but you wouldn't pick either on this showing!

[BWFC_Insane]

Yeah - but you wouldn't pick either on this showing!

You wouldn’t pick many but you wouldn’t jettison one of the greatest ever off the back of one bad tournament, unless he decides he’s had enough.

2015 was disastrous but they let Morgan continue and rightly so.

I don’t think Buttler is a captain though - not one for a rebuild. But there isn’t an obvious choice right now to have that role.

[Worthy4England]

Yeah - but you wouldn't pick either on this showing!

You wouldn’t pick many but you wouldn’t jettison one of the greatest ever off the back of one bad tournament, unless he decides he’s had enough.

2015 was disastrous but they let Morgan continue and rightly so.

I don’t think Buttler is a captain though - not one for a rebuild. But there isn’t an obvious choice right now to have that role.

Yeah, I'd agree on the captain thing, but for the reasons, we previously mentioned - that I don't think WK made good one-day captaincy picks. He's looked like a rabbit in the headlights at interviews, but there's not much you can say when the wheels fall off - as happened to Root (not that he was given much leeway)

His strike rate is probably the best we've seen, but his average is some way from unbeatable (4 of the current team are higher - Root, Stokes, Bairstow and Malan - albeit much shorter career for Malan)...

[Prufrock]

I think he'll stay on, and as captain. I hope he gets persuaded to give up the gloves though.

[Worthy4England]

I think he'll stay on, and as captain. I hope he gets persuaded to give up the gloves though.

He's pitched his name to stay on, in an interview today, I think...It would make sense, to give him the Carribean without the gloves, to me...

[BWFC_Insane]

Yeah - but you wouldn't pick either on this showing!

You wouldn’t pick many but you wouldn’t jettison one of the greatest ever off the back of one bad tournament, unless he decides he’s had enough.

2015 was disastrous but they let Morgan continue and rightly so.

I don’t think Buttler is a captain though - not one for a rebuild. But there isn’t an obvious choice right now to have that role.

Yeah, I'd agree on the captain thing, but for the reasons, we previously mentioned - that I don't think WK made good one-day captaincy picks. He's looked like a rabbit in the headlights at interviews, but there's not much you can say when the wheels fall off - as happened to Root (not that he was given much leeway)

His strike rate is probably the best we've seen, but his average is some way from unbeatable (4 of the current team are higher - Root, Stokes, Bairstow and Malan - albeit much shorter career for Malan)...

You’d expect Buttler playing down the order as a finisher - often coming in for a few overs to have a lower average than the top order batters wouldn’t you?

[Worthy4England]

Not unreasonable, even were I to suggest he's got a better chance to carry his bat, if only in for a few overs.

I think he's been very good at times. 2018/19 were really strong years. A very good 2022. 23 he's at about his average despite this WC.

I think when we get to "one of the greatest ever" is where I disagree. He's probably in the top 100 out and out batsmen, so if that's the measure of "greatest ever" then maybe. He's about the same level as Symonds, the Aussie, and I doubt many would have him in their greatest ever list. To get that sorta tag, for me, you're probably looking at folks like Jaques Kallis.

[BWFC_Insane]

Not unreasonable, even were I to suggest he's got a better chance to carry his bat, if only in for a few overs.

I think he's been very good at times. 2018/19 were really strong years. A very good 2022. 23 he's at about his average despite this WC.

I think when we get to "one of the greatest ever" is where I disagree. He's probably in the top 100 out and out batsmen, so if that's the measure of "greatest ever" then maybe. He's about the same level as Symonds, the Aussie, and I doubt many would have him in their greatest ever list. To get that sorta tag, for me, you're probably looking at folks like Jaques Kallis.

With the greatest of respect I’m talking about the modern ODI game where it’s a genuine thing and not an extension of the test game.

Buttler is one of those who innovated and changed the game. Going into this W/C I believe only one player had a higher ODI strike rate and their average was sub 30.

So Buttler on a different plane to Kallis who I have no idea what his strike rate is but can’t imagine he’s doing much better than low 90’s. And played an entirely different game .

[Worthy4England]

Not unreasonable, even were I to suggest he's got a better chance to carry his bat, if only in for a few overs.

I think he's been very good at times. 2018/19 were really strong years. A very good 2022. 23 he's at about his average despite this WC.

I think when we get to "one of the greatest ever" is where I disagree. He's probably in the top 100 out and out batsmen, so if that's the measure of "greatest ever" then maybe. He's about the same level as Symonds, the Aussie, and I doubt many would have him in their greatest ever list. To get that sorta tag, for me, you're probably looking at folks like Jaques Kallis.

With the greatest of respect I’m talking about the modern ODI game where it’s a genuine thing and not an extension of the test game.

Buttler is one of those who innovated and changed the game. Going into this W/C I believe only one player had a higher ODI strike rate and their average was sub 30.

So Buttler on a different plane to Kallis who I have no idea what his strike rate is but can’t imagine he’s doing much better than low 90’s. And played an entirely different game .

Sure but strike rate isn't everything nor the b-all and end-all. On average Buttler faces less than 5 overs an innings - which still leaves you 45 overs to deal with. It's great when it spins a game for you, but with the greatest respect back at you, the rules weren't the same when Kallis played in terms of power plays, free hits, no-ball rules and the like.

Kallis also took getting on for 300 wickets. (I know Buttler can't do that coz he doesn't bowl) and 130 catches as a non-WK - just to give you a notion Buttler has 220 as a WK and none as an outfielder.

Sure, if you want to draw some sort of artificial "modern game" boundaries around the notion - then maybe that has some impact.

If you look at the three top ODI scores ever - which I assume you have in mind when talking about changing the game and which Jos was an essential part of, he pulverised the Netherlands, but the highest strike rate that day was Liam Livingstone who scored 66 @ 300. Is that better than Jos, 162 @ 231 SR? I'd contend you'd argue not. Phil Salt and Malan also got tons, at a roughly equal or greater than strike rates to Buttler's norm that day. It was a good day for batting.

The 481 v Aus, he got 11 and not very quickly. Every other batter had a higher strike rate.

444 v Pakistan, was Netherlands in reverse, Buttler got a 90 at 176 SR, Hales 171 at 140 - so yeah Hales was slower, but you'd keep his 171 as a preference, surely?

I'm happy for Buttler to be your greatest ever pick He's just a long way from being mine. He wouldn't make my first XI and maybe not my second XI. Unless I took odd games and situations in isolation. Flat Track, Wind behind, very quick runs needed to seal the deal, Jos is my man.

[BWFC_Insane]

I don’t think it’s as reductive as looking at stats or trying to argue about contributions in individual games that we can pick and choose.

His compatriots, selectors, franchises tell the story of how good he is and how significant he’s been in transforming the game.

And my point is that you can’t take a player from an era where it was more or less an extension of the test game and start comparing averages. Because it’s a totally different game. A completely different skill set required now. You could almost draw a line under the history because I don’t think it’s comparable. People trundling along at S/R under 80 are probably struggling in the modern game and we can argue about whether they would be different or adapt all we want to but it seems a bit pointless and almost certain their averages in those circumstances would be considerably lower anyway.

Anyway wisden did a piece on it so rather than regurgitate it might as well just post it as it pretty much is everything I’d argue.

https://wisden.com/stories/jos-buttler- ... sation/amp

[Worthy4England]

Sure, I agree that plenty changes, but players played in the circumstance of their time - with all that entails, positive or negative - that's just part of the conversation. But to just discount a player like Kallis from the all time ODI greats is for me, equally as stupid.

As the Wisden article commences "The debate for any sport is polarising and generally pointless. Experts and armchair watchers make arbitrary and sentimental claims of supremacy across generations with little room for nuance." That's about the only bit that merits acknowledgement.

They talk about three criteria.

Players overall record, where they ignore the 90 or so previous and current players with higher averages because they have a lower strike rate.

Impact on the game - again here, it's pretty unmeasurable what sort of impact say an Ian Botham had on the game. Did he play scoop shots and the like - no because he didn't need to. I can recall playing reverse sweeps about 30 years back and there were plenty not opposed to ramping it over the slips - but less infrequently and usually not when it was on the wicket.

The silverware he's picked up - acknowledging he was part of both ODI and T20 successes. Well sure that's going to rule out a fairly chunky part of yesteryear because we hadn't invented "not cricket" at that point and they acknowledge this also has a little bit to do with team - so pretty useless as a measure for me.

Then I wondered which leading light of the cricketing fraternity had written such a puff piece about Jos and quite frankly, I was amazed to find it was non-such, but some fresh out of Uni person, who likely hadn't played much as evidenced by the piece itself!

You sir, stay with your Buttler, I'll keep my Kallis.

[Prufrock]

Tbf anyone who was saying Kallis wasn't in the conversation would be mental, but I don't think it's that.

I think Morgan has a greater claim to greatness overall than Buttler but I agree he's in the conversation as a single player.

That England team didn't just win (two) world cups, they changed the game. It'd be like saying Cruyff was less important than Frank Lebeouf because he has fewer world cup medals.

Morgan more for me, but Buttler is definitely arguablye as the poster boy for "feck off we're aiming for 500".

Which isn't to say he's the best one over Kallis (say)

[Worthy4England]

Tbf anyone who was saying Kallis wasn't in the conversation would be mental, but I don't think it's that.

I think Morgan has a greater claim to greatness overall than Buttler but I agree he's in the conversation as a single player.

That England team didn't just win (two) world cups, they changed the game. It'd be like saying Cruyff was less important than Frank Lebeouf because he has fewer world cup medals.

Morgan more for me, but Buttler is definitely arguablye as the poster boy for "feck off we're aiming for 500".

Which isn't to say he's the best one over Kallis (say)

Yes - but the three huge scores were everyone hitting the straps at the same time - so I put that down to team effort - which Jos was a large part of, but a team effort nonetheless...

[BWFC_Insane]

Tbf anyone who was saying Kallis wasn't in the conversation would be mental, but I don't think it's that.

I think Morgan has a greater claim to greatness overall than Buttler but I agree he's in the conversation as a single player.

That England team didn't just win (two) world cups, they changed the game. It'd be like saying Cruyff was less important than Frank Lebeouf because he has fewer world cup medals.

Morgan more for me, but Buttler is definitely arguablye as the poster boy for "feck off we're aiming for 500".

Which isn't to say he's the best one over Kallis (say)

It depends on what you want to look at. Morgan as a captain, leader and innovator was revolutionary. Buttler as an ODI batter though was better…he was unbelievably good, able to play all round the wicket and did stuff we’ve never seen before. At a strike rate nobody could match and an outstanding average considering where he batted.

If you were picking a set of players at their peak for an ODI side to play tomorrow you’d not pick Kallis at his peak over Jos. That’s just how it is for me. You wouldn’t even think about it.

Stokes has taken on the Botham mantle of being a hero and performing in big games when it matters and can play all three forms. He’s undoubtedly the best all round player England have. But even he says Buttler is a better more natural ODI batter than he is….stokes has the intangible ‘dig England out’ sort of thing but he doesn’t have Buttlers natural timing, range of shots and consequently not the same strike rate.