Cricket World Cup

[Worthy4England]

You only pick Buttler ahead of Kallis, if you conveniently forget Kallis 300 wickets and 200 outfield catches on top of his better average and want to limit the conversation to just one limited measure.

[BWFC_Insane]

You only pick Buttler ahead of Kallis, if you conveniently forget Kallis 300 wickets and 200 outfield catches on top of his better average and want to limit the conversation to just one limited measure.

You’d pick Buttler if you want someone who has the skill set to play ODI cricket today.

You’d pick Kallis if you don’t like ODI cricket and want to pretend it’s a test match because you are stubborn like that!

[Worthy4England]

I wouldn't. Genuinely, mate. Because as a class cricketer, Kallis would adapt his play to new rules, power plays, free fcking hits, shortened side boundaries and the like! And would still last longer than 28 balls per innings.

You're discounting average, but on average I get more runs off Kallis every innings than Buttler. It's that simple.

Not sure he'd dirty himself with T20 (well I reckon he would coz of the money)

[Worthy4England]

And I haven't even mentioned that abhorrence of a ball, yet.

[BWFC_Insane]

I wouldn't. Genuinely, mate. Because as a class cricketer, Kallis would adapt his play to new rules, power plays, free fcking hits, shortened side boundaries and the like! And would still last longer than 28 balls per innings.

You're discounting average, but on average I get more runs off Kallis every innings than Buttler. It's that simple.

Not sure he'd dirty himself with T20 (well I reckon he would coz of the money)

You’re discounting that in the modern game he’d not get picked with a strike rate of 72!!!!!!!! and therefore what his average would be when he had to up the scoring rate consistently would likely be a huge question mark.

Modern ODI cricket…45 off 61 balls vs 39 off 33….is no contest. Nobody is picking the former unless they want to lose.

You are using up 4-5 overs for an extra 6 runs.

And sure we can discuss whether Kallis would adapt…I agree he was an absolute class cricketer but the discussion of whether he’d adapt is circular and never ending.

[Worthy4England]

We have some inkling. I think he was over 120 SR for very early days IPL (which is still lower than IPL today)

The comparison you give assumes the entire team goes at the same rate which we know they don't and obviously you've presented numbers you know proves the case. 45 in 41 is better than 39 in 33 coz on average they bat the full 50. Anyhow Buttler's average innings is only 28... so you're adding nearly a full over on. It's just unrealistic!

I mean, to try and make the Jos case, who like you I think is a darn fine ODI player , people often say "he can play 360 degrees and he's got the highest SR." They're the same fact expressed a different way not two separate facts, because according to the logic, someone scoring at 118 but all off straight drives would be a better pick!

I'll still have Kallis, thanks! Who's your next pick?

[Prufrock]

As you say, the bowling is quite important too!

For pure ODI batting, it's tough to look past Kohli for #1, as irritating as he is.

And Viv!

[Worthy4England]

Gill is making a decent fist of it at the moment, too...

[BWFC_Insane]

We have some inkling. I think he was over 120 SR for very early days IPL (which is still lower than IPL today)

The comparison you give assumes the entire team goes at the same rate which we know they don't and obviously you've presented numbers you know proves the case. 45 in 41 is better than 39 in 33 coz on average they bat the full 50. Anyhow Buttler's average innings is only 28... so you're adding nearly a full over on. It's just unrealistic!

I mean, to try and make the Jos case, who like you I think is a darn fine ODI player , people often say "he can play 360 degrees and he's got the highest SR." They're the same fact expressed a different way not two separate facts, because according to the logic, someone scoring at 118 but all off straight drives would be a better pick!

I'll still have Kallis, thanks! Who's your next pick?

I’ve presented their average in ODI cricket and the number of balls it takes them to get there based on their strike rate…which is surely fair enough….

Your logic now seems to be you’d pick Kallis and let him take up all the balls for his 45 average because someone else in the team will be able to do better and up the overall strike rate….I’m starting to struggle with that logic tbh….

We don’t even need to debate Kallis anyway. England have a Kallis like in their side in root. Obviously with a close to 90 strike rate because, well you have to nowadays. And an average of 47. A superb cricketer. A far better all round batsman across all formats than Jos for sure. But again, if there was an ODI franchise around the world who would be the one in most demand? Wouldn’t be root…..

[Worthy4England]

The average number of balls they face would be balls/innings, no? In which case I think it's 28...

You might have misconstrued what I was saying about the rest of the team (coz I might have explained it poorly). What I was trying to say was you can't really extrapolate team totals based on one batman's strike rate and it's about how the whole fits together. So as you say with Root, his SR is lower, but from a team perspective it's equally important. If you look at Jos stunning innings against the Netherlands, the other two centurions also blasted way above their normal SR. And Livingstone hit 66 at 300, which I think you're trying to tell me is better than Jos' shoddy 162 at a sedate 270?

I mean it's easy to settle his "worth" pretty conclusively. The IPL can help with the free market economics. I think there's 6 England players more expensive about 6 or 7 wk/bats more expensive including one in his own team and I don't think he's in the top 22!

[BWFC_Insane]

Well we’ve not done much at this WC so it’s nice we’ve knocked out Pakistan I guess.

[Worthy4England]

Aye, we probably didn't fancy not qualifying for Champions (lol) trophy. Good to see our plodders get us to 334....

[BWFC_Insane]

Aye, we probably didn't fancy not qualifying for Champions (lol) trophy. Good to see our plodders get us to 334....

It shows simply how undercooked we were. Just not prepared properly for this. As clearly overtime we’ve started to bat better.

[Worthy4England]

Aye, we probably didn't fancy not qualifying for Champions (lol) trophy. Good to see our plodders get us to 334....

It shows simply how undercooked we were. Just not prepared properly for this. As clearly overtime we’ve started to bat better.

I might buy that "it's their fault," losing the odd one by -' I dunno - maybe 40 or even 50. They way we've batted is not the ECB's "fault," the fine tuning probably is. So. Bollocks, I call, Sir - it was like they'd never held a bat. As you might say of Santos in a bad day, Pub players.

[BWFC_Insane]

Aye, we probably didn't fancy not qualifying for Champions (lol) trophy. Good to see our plodders get us to 334....

It shows simply how undercooked we were. Just not prepared properly for this. As clearly overtime we’ve started to bat better.

I might buy that "it's their fault," losing the odd one by -' I dunno - maybe 40 or even 50. They way we've batted is not the ECB's "fault," the fine tuning probably is. So. Bollocks, I call, Sir - it was like they'd never held a bat. As you might say of Santos in a bad day, Pub players.

We haven’t become a dreadful team overnight. The lack of preparation in the format and significantly the conditions is screaming out as a major issue. Especially as we’ve suddenly posted 300 plus against a very decent Pakistan side as we’ve had more game time in the conditions.

I’m not saying it’s one singular thing but listening to the pros and people who have done this they all say the prep was completely inadequate. And you go there without that prep come unstuck and suddenly confidence nose dives.

[Worthy4England]

Yeah, I agree prep was really poor.

It just doesn't, for me, directly connect to top-class bowlers not being able to put the ball somewhere near they're intending to nor the fact that some batsmen looked like they'd never seen a bat! They were that bad.

Not overly surprised by Windie's squad overall. Bit surprised Malan was dropped (although they mentioned his T20 form). I think he's been our most consistent batter at CWC

[BWFC_Insane]

Yeah, I agree prep was really poor.

It just doesn't, for me, directly connect to top-class bowlers not being able to put the ball somewhere near they're intending to nor the fact that some batsmen looked like they'd never seen a bat! They were that bad.

Not overly surprised by Windie's squad overall. Bit surprised Malan was dropped (although they mentioned his T20 form). I think he's been our most consistent batter at CWC

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/67395485

Rob Key seems to accept the blame which is arguably the best thing whilst also making clear that going forwards it’s up to Buttler and Mott to sort it out. Again is fair.

I think the squad needed an overhaul and naturally would get one due to retirements and people coming to the end of their lifecycles.

Malan is an odd one. He has a superb set of stats and record but I’m never entirely convinced by him in the format - I don’t know why. I think part of it is he doesn’t fit the Morgan template we had in 2019 and that needed a fast start in the power play and he’s a slow starter.

[Worthy4England]

TBF, I would hope Key and the Leadership shoulder the blame. That comes with the job. And whilst we've rescued a top 8 finish, I think I'm correct in saying we were bottom after 7th round of games? That's not an acceptable return, for me (even if I acknowledge Afghanistan might be better than the Netherlands. ). The only people below Afghanistan are pretty poor teams on that showing. I know SL are down there, but they're in complete disarray...

I'm not sure I'm entirely convinced by Jos as Captain (player for sure) nor Mott...

[BWFC_Insane]

TBF, I would hope Key and the Leadership shoulder the blame. That comes with the job. And whilst we've rescued a top 8 finish, I think I'm correct in saying we were bottom after 7th round of games? That's not an acceptable return, for me (even if I acknowledge Afghanistan might be better than the Netherlands. ). The only people below Afghanistan are pretty poor teams on that showing. I know SL are down there, but they're in complete disarray...

I'm not sure I'm entirely convinced by Jos as Captain (player for sure) nor Mott...

I concur. I think Buttler was a good captain to continue the success and we saw that with the T20 WC win last year. But we are now in rebuild territory and I think it needs a more dynamic and ruthless type who has a vision and the clarity Morgan brought. I’m not sure who that would or could be though but definitely a thing for the future. We of course have to acknowledge that Morgan may well be one of the greatest one day captains ever so it’s massive shoes to fill.

Mott I’m not convinced by either. Indeed I actively think he’s set us back. Under Morgan and Baylis there was a complete clarity about how we would play. What we wanted to do. It was a template and we picked players that could deliver on it. When things went wrong we stuck true to the template and kept going. That freed players up to play aggressively all the time and broadly it worked on a number of levels. Teams feared us and bowled more conservatively thus allowing us to attack even more.

Mott to me maybe by circumstances has diverted away from the plan somewhat and seems to want us to play more conventionally but I think that has caused confusion at times. Maybe he just hasn’t had the same circumstances Baylis had. But when I hear him interviewed he seems a bit lost as a character.

[Worthy4England]

With you on Mott, I just understated it a bit, but I'd be a bit surprised if anyone actually had a "bat less aggressively" template. I know the difference between a team I played in one year that won nowt, and the year later won League and Cup, was 2 regular players, a bit of luck and some fine margins. The other 9, me included, were pretty much "as you were" - maybe we just competed 5% harder from the season before, dunno...they weren't two signings as you sometimes see in League cricket, that won the batting and bowling averages, they were just a bit more versatile than the 2 who dropped out. So I think sometimes smaller changes can have a pretty big impact...If you look at someone like Roy for example, he's not 117 SR, but no slouch either at 102 and I think an average over 40. That's a bit of a hole to fill.

I'd also say, if you look at big totals, we have 2 that are outliers Netherlands and Aus, in all the games we played "at the top" the next one is one run ahead of a block that other countries were achieving.

The CWC we won was certainly a "could've gone either way" in the final. It wasn't a hugely decisive victory, albeit a well welcomed one.