Middle East Crisis

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thebish
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Re: Middle East Crisis

Post by thebish » Wed Sep 21, 2016 8:31 am

Prufrock wrote:
thebish wrote:
Prufrock wrote:
Excellent. It's just Jeremy doesn't agree with you.

i'd be interested to hear your 3d solution to syria - or perhaps 4d or 5d? does it involve us bombing people?
Bomb the baddies. Don't bomb the goodies. Simple.

Bombing gets you as far as getting rid of ISIS.

can you provide a list of all the groups in Syria who are engaged in this conflict and label them "goodies" or "baddies" - so we know which ones to bomb? otherwise I shall file this response under "naive and shallow bollox".

do you seriously think you can simply bomb ISIS out of existence??
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Re: Middle East Crisis

Post by BWFC_Insane » Wed Sep 21, 2016 10:12 am

boltonboris wrote:
BWFC_Insane wrote:
boltonboris wrote:
Abdoulaye's Twin wrote:
bobo the clown wrote:Yep. Coz wishing ISIS away is a great tactic.
I agree that is not an option, but lobbing a few bombs in from a distance and expecting anything to get fixed is even more stupid. Have a proper plan, resource it and execute it yes. Piss about with a few bombs because we want to show solidarity with the French or look good to the Yanks who have absolutely no plan other than bomb them is a large part of why the Middle East is such a mess.
Tell them to stay the feck away from us and we'll stay the feck away from them, would be a start.

But apparently, being billy big bollocks on the global arena seems to be really important to a lot of people
Cos historically burying our heads and hoping stuff going on elsewhere won't impact us has paid handsome dividends?
I think history shows us not starting wars with people generally makes them not war with us. 'The West' invading Iraq played a major part in the formation of the very same people who want to butcher us right now
I've no issue with that sentiment but it's not always as straight forward. I certainly think any suggestion that we wash our hands and ignore any troubles in the ME is frankly very naive and ultimately dangerous.

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Re: Middle East Crisis

Post by Worthy4England » Wed Sep 21, 2016 11:38 am

I'm not actually convinced that us not starting war with someone makes them not war with us. There were a good few in the last 120 years.

The West invading Iraq didn't form the very same people who want to butcher us right now. They were there a long time before, albeit not called "ISIS". I think the post-war actions left a hole that they filled very expertly.

The question I have is - how do you get to a "climb down" position within the ME, with looney's in North Korea, with Putin etc. etc. if the approach is not to talk to them? And sorta following on from that, how far back do you go when listing grievances? Do we just not interfere in any of these places in the hope they might just forget British Colonialism? Do we stop sanctioning them from developing Nuclear technologies and hope they'll point them somewhere else? All this bearing in mind that many of the countries that might not like us very much have boundaries that we drew (or had a hand in drawing them).

I don't think the "Right, we're bored with all this now" approach works with the history.

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Re: Middle East Crisis

Post by Prufrock » Wed Sep 21, 2016 8:00 pm

thebish wrote:
Prufrock wrote:
thebish wrote:
Prufrock wrote:
Excellent. It's just Jeremy doesn't agree with you.

i'd be interested to hear your 3d solution to syria - or perhaps 4d or 5d? does it involve us bombing people?
Bomb the baddies. Don't bomb the goodies. Simple.

Bombing gets you as far as getting rid of ISIS.


can you provide a list of all the groups in Syria who are engaged in this conflict and label them "goodies" or "baddies" - so we know which ones to bomb? otherwise I shall file this response under "naive and shallow bollox".

do you seriously think you can simply bomb ISIS out of existence??

Point of order. I appreciate you're doing it because that's the bit you want to reply to but the habit you've got into of cutting quotes it's inadvertently disingenuous. The full quote reads
Prufrock wrote:
thebish wrote:
Prufrock wrote:
Excellent. It's just Jeremy doesn't agree with you.

i'd be interested to hear your 3d solution to syria - or perhaps 4d or 5d? does it involve us bombing people?
Bomb the baddies. Don't bomb the goodies. Simple.

Bombing gets you as far as getting rid of ISIS. You need a plan for afterwards. If we'd didn't the last Christ knows how long doing what we should have been, backing secular democrats and not selling weapons to theocratic dictators it might be less difficult. My feeling now it's it probably involves not just talks but ugly concessions with Assad.

Imo though a lot lies at the door of Obama. His red line should have been followed up on.
The bit you've decided to pick on was (and IMO was clearly in context) facetious.

As for can we bomb ISIS out of existence? Certainly not completely, but I think that bombing combined with supporting the kurds and iraqis can get rid of Isis in terms of it holding any territory. That's a start.
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thebish
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Re: Middle East Crisis

Post by thebish » Wed Sep 21, 2016 8:10 pm

so - bombing won't get rid of ISIS then.
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Re: Middle East Crisis

Post by Prufrock » Wed Sep 21, 2016 9:06 pm

Is an Islamic State still an Islamic State if it isn't a state anymore? It's an interesting question.
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Re: Middle East Crisis

Post by bobo the clown » Wed Sep 21, 2016 9:47 pm

Prufrock wrote:Is an Islamic State still an Islamic State if it isn't a state anymore? It's an interesting question.
The BEEB can then get round to calling it Daesh instead of "So-Called Islamic State". The 'so-called' is a ridiculous phrase.
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Re: Middle East Crisis

Post by Lord Kangana » Wed Sep 21, 2016 9:53 pm

The Daily Mail just died a little.
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Re: Middle East Crisis

Post by Prufrock » Thu Sep 22, 2016 12:13 am

bobo the clown wrote:
Prufrock wrote:Is an Islamic State still an Islamic State if it isn't a state anymore? It's an interesting question.
The BEEB can then get round to calling it Daesh instead of "So-Called Islamic State". The 'so-called' is a ridiculous phrase.
It was a bizarre time when so-called prime minister so-called David Cameron put pressure on the so-called BBC to call so-called Isis "so-called Isis".
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Re: Middle East Crisis

Post by thebish » Thu Sep 22, 2016 8:26 pm

I stumbled across this today - someone has tried to make an inventory of ISIS weaponry... it comes from all over the world - but lots from the old Soviet Union and lots from the United States - lots captured from ineffective and poorly trained Iraqi troops who the US gave tons of military equipment to - to support them... quite a bit of it illegally traded and bartered from groups who the US supported because they thought they would use the weapons on the ground against ISIS... arming one ME group against another cos we think one might be slightly less bad than the other is a less then precise business... it's all very messy.

http://uk.businessinsider.com/isis-mili ... senal-2016
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Re: Middle East Crisis

Post by Harry Genshaw » Thu Sep 22, 2016 9:05 pm

thebish wrote:I stumbled across this today - someone has tried to make an inventory of ISIS weaponry... it comes from all over the world - but lots from the old Soviet Union and lots from the United States - lots captured from ineffective and poorly trained Iraqi troops who the US gave tons of military equipment to - to support them... quite a bit of it illegally traded and bartered from groups who the US supported because they thought they would use the weapons on the ground against ISIS... arming one ME group against another cos we think one might be slightly less bad than the other is a less then precise business... it's all very messy.

http://uk.businessinsider.com/isis-mili ... senal-2016
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Re: Middle East Crisis

Post by Lord Kangana » Fri Sep 23, 2016 3:11 pm

There's more profit in chaos.
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Re: Middle East Crisis

Post by Bruce Rioja » Sat Sep 24, 2016 8:27 pm

Lord Kangana wrote:There's more profit in chaos.
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