Middle East Crisis

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Hoboh
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Re: Middle East Crisis

Post by Hoboh » Sun Sep 04, 2016 12:10 pm

Lord Kangana wrote:According to the leaflet I got before the referendum, so is Iraq. Why does our government hide these things from us?
Terribly sorry but this thread is about the Middle East, fcuk all to do with the EU.

You and Worthy must have missed the reading lessons at school.

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Re: Middle East Crisis

Post by Montreal Wanderer » Sun Sep 04, 2016 2:33 pm

Hoboh wrote:
Lord Kangana wrote:According to the leaflet I got before the referendum, so is Iraq. Why does our government hide these things from us?
Terribly sorry but this thread is about the Middle East, fcuk all to do with the EU.

You and Worthy must have missed the reading lessons at school.
Ah, but he took geography.
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Re: Middle East Crisis

Post by Prufrock » Sun Sep 04, 2016 3:04 pm

Is Hoboh complaining that people are banging on about the EU in other threads?

:lol: incredible stuff.
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Re: Middle East Crisis

Post by Worthy4England » Sun Sep 04, 2016 8:12 pm

Hoboh wrote:
Lord Kangana wrote:According to the leaflet I got before the referendum, so is Iraq. Why does our government hide these things from us?
Terribly sorry but this thread is about the Middle East, fcuk all to do with the EU.

You and Worthy must have missed the reading lessons at school.
But, but Turkey must be in the EU by now. 85 million of 'em all queuing to get into Catford dogs on a Thursday evening. Or are you telling us that was all bollocks and they're now just back in the Middle East.

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Re: Middle East Crisis

Post by Lord Kangana » Sun Sep 04, 2016 9:23 pm

Theresa May was getting her excuses in early today as well I see. I realise I shouldn't mention that. Or the Japanese. Project fear bastards that they are, looking after their own interests first.

It's almost as if we're actually going to have to deal with the world at some point. A world that is fully aware of our position.
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Re: Middle East Crisis

Post by Hoboh » Sun Sep 04, 2016 11:52 pm

Lord Kangana wrote:Theresa May was getting her excuses in early today as well I see. I realise I shouldn't mention that. Or the Japanese. Project fear bastards that they are, looking after their own interests first.

It's almost as if we're actually going to have to deal with the world at some point. A world that is fully aware of our position.
Aye I'm sure the Japs would love an embargo or tariffs on their goods to the UK.

Funny how some people think trade is a one way thing.

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Re: Middle East Crisis

Post by Abdoulaye's Twin » Mon Sep 05, 2016 5:44 am

Hoboh wrote:
Lord Kangana wrote:Theresa May was getting her excuses in early today as well I see. I realise I shouldn't mention that. Or the Japanese. Project fear bastards that they are, looking after their own interests first.

It's almost as if we're actually going to have to deal with the world at some point. A world that is fully aware of our position.
Aye I'm sure the Japs would love an embargo or tariffs on their goods to the UK.

Funny how some people think trade is a one way thing.
I think they're more worried about tariffs on parts from Europe for the car factories in Sunderland and then more tariffs on those cars going to Europe. Don't worry, they'll be able to sell them to er...

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Re: Middle East Crisis

Post by Lord Kangana » Mon Sep 05, 2016 7:59 am

I think that's the major issue. Some people actually do think that trade is a one way thing.

So tell me, what do we bring to the table in a negotiation with non-EU members that doesn't start with 'look, we're a bit desperate here'?

Bearing in mind it'd be nice to have a f*cking plan.
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Re: Middle East Crisis

Post by Hoboh » Mon Sep 05, 2016 11:29 am

Lord Kangana wrote:I think that's the major issue. Some people actually do think that trade is a one way thing.

So tell me, what do we bring to the table in a negotiation with non-EU members that doesn't start with 'look, we're a bit desperate here'?

Bearing in mind it'd be nice to have a f*cking plan.
Well, we could start with a market slot for 'x' billion £'s worth of cars for starters, the Koreans are the new Japan chased by China.

Japan has loads of problems building up under the surface, more money required for defence spending, citizens who won't work for peanuts now to fuel their flooding of overseas markets and other countries such as the afore mentioned producing products just as good and cheaper! (btw I reckon that is what will do for the Germans long term, ever think why their car companies were so quick to purchase other countries production?)

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Re: Middle East Crisis

Post by Lord Kangana » Mon Sep 05, 2016 12:11 pm

Japan produces cars in this country (and other goods) because of our access to the single market. Half a million jobs in this country rely on Japanese industry.

The EU collectively has a GDP 8 times that of the UK.

Now, here on planet earth, if you were making the business decisions for large multi-national corporations, and you wanted access to 7/8ths of that money, where would you base your operation?

This is, of course, a rhetorical question. Of course Japan will still do business with us, but unless we can guarantee access to the single market, its worth to them is about 1/8th of that which it is currently.
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Re: Middle East Crisis

Post by Harry Genshaw » Mon Sep 05, 2016 5:54 pm

Lord Kangana wrote:Japan produces cars in this country (and other goods) because of our access to the single market. Half a million jobs in this country rely on Japanese industry.

The EU collectively has a GDP 8 times that of the UK.

Now, here on planet earth, if you were making the business decisions for large multi-national corporations, and you wanted access to 7/8ths of that money, where would you base your operation?

This is, of course, a rhetorical question. Of course Japan will still do business with us, but unless we can guarantee access to the single market, its worth to them is about 1/8th of that which it is currently.
Interesting stuff and genuine question here (& apologies, this probably should be for the Brexit thread) - if access to the single market was so important to the Japs, why did they choose us, a country not in the Euro? Surely it would make sense to have located in say Greece, and avoid the vagaries of fluctuating exchange rates?
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Re: Middle East Crisis

Post by Lord Kangana » Mon Sep 05, 2016 6:15 pm

Referring to Nissan specifically, as I recall it, they get/got an EU grant (I know someone who was involved at-a-distance, I could always pick their brains for exactitudes) for relocating to the NE (at the time) which was part of a round of measures to mitigate the loss of Shipyards/heavy industry etc. So they got a ready made, willing and able workforce, and, again as I recall it, large investment into the local infrastructure (they use/d a 'Just in time' principle on their production lines, so transport links were important).

On exchange rates, one of the key tenets of freedom of movement is the 'passporting' of money and the reduction of cross-border red tape.

As for Greece, if you had a choice, you'd probably come here wouldn't you? But (and this is a massive Elephant-in-the-room but that everyone ignores), if we don't have access to the single market, then yes, you'd probably scale-down production here and move it elsewhere with that access, and with those grants.
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Re: Middle East Crisis

Post by Harry Genshaw » Mon Sep 05, 2016 6:23 pm

Lord Kangana wrote:Referring to Nissan specifically, as I recall it, they get/got an EU grant (I know someone who was involved at-a-distance, I could always pick their brains for exactitudes) for relocating to the NE (at the time) which was part of a round of measures to mitigate the loss of Shipyards/heavy industry etc. So they got a ready made, willing and able workforce, and, again as I recall it, large investment into the local infrastructure (they use/d a 'Just in time' principle on their production lines, so transport links were important).

On exchange rates, one of the key tenets of freedom of movement is the 'passporting' of money and the reduction of cross-border red tape.

As for Greece, if you had a choice, you'd probably come here wouldn't you? But (and this is a massive Elephant-in-the-room but that everyone ignores), if we don't have access to the single market, then yes, you'd probably scale-down production here and move it elsewhere with that access, and with those grants.
Aye I recall that re the relocation to a deprived area. Pre Euro days iirc. Given the same circumstances now, they'd be more likely to choose a Euro using country surely. I used Greece as an example where given the depressed economy, wages would be lower and more attractive for a large company
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Re: Middle East Crisis

Post by Lord Kangana » Mon Sep 05, 2016 6:32 pm

Interestingly, a quick google reveals that they last received an EU grant in 2011.
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Re: Middle East Crisis

Post by Lord Kangana » Mon Sep 05, 2016 6:37 pm

And I'm not so sure about the Greece thing. We have quite a stable country, with a decent infrastructure, in Western (richer!) Europe, with a (probably) more highly skilled workforce, and a place where people (at the moment) want to come to to work, rather than leave to find work.

All those things are great, giving us fantastic opportunities with companies. But they're not all that if we can't give them unfettered access to such a large trading bloc as the EU. I don't doubt companies will retain a presence, as I've said, but it's just not good business sense to retain all of it here if there's more money to be made elsewhere.
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Re: Middle East Crisis

Post by bobo the clown » Mon Sep 05, 2016 6:52 pm

Harry Genshaw wrote:Interesting stuff and genuine question here (& apologies, this probably should be for the Brexit thread) - if access to the single market was so important to the Japs, why did they choose us, a country not in the Euro? Surely it would make sense to have located in say Greece, and avoid the vagaries of fluctuating exchange rates?
The Nissan plant opened in 1984. The initial discussions had originated from Heseltine's interventions of 1982 but had been dreamt up before then even. Essentially, as LK said, to alleviate unemployment and loss of industry in the North East. They got British and EU money to do this as the North East was a development zone .... still is, I think. It was a brave decision by Govt. & Nissan & agreed a 'sweetheart' deal with a single TU. That being the AEEU, later to morph after various iterations into Unite. That caused a huge rift between the then moderate Union and the more militant GMB.

The ERM was operating from around that time, but the Euro was only agreed at Maastricht in 1992. again, already contemplated but only agreed then. It came into operation in 1999. All some way before the Eastern expansion of the EU.

The Japanese have found it a successful place to manufacture.

It does mean the cars are, not only built but largely designed in the UK. Whist very much owned by Nissan of Japan it operates semi-autonomously. The access to the European market depends on there being a minimum of parts being manufactured in the EU. They come well within that. That would continue to be the case for any foreseeable future as the parts manufacturers are all over the EU but all have businesses in the UK. Having spent 5 years in the Automotive industry I can confirm that "Just-in-Time" manufacturing and the supply chain complexities involved are astonishing.

(For example; At Halewood JLR manufacture a car every 80 seconds. That's 1,000 completed cars a day. The line stops but rarely and any delay is enormously expensive. Imagine then that approx. 5 seats per car ... so that means 5,000 seats being manufactured, to amazing standard requirements, every day. Using literally 100's of parts per seat. Those parts are made in all sorts of factories, from all over the place and stocks are rarely more than 36 hours worth. The logistics are breathtaking. Any motor-way hold ups, bridges closed, traffic jams, etc., etc bugger all that up. Any quality issue can bring this crashing to a halt to. .... apologies, as that's all an aside, but hopefully informative).


But Nissan have long been scouring Eastern Europe to manufacture a new generation of vehicles. That will NOT be in Greece. Their hold on Europe is far too tenuous. Again, wherever it is, they will be getting further EU & whatever other grants they can. This Brexit bit may just be extremely convenient to blame for something they wish to do anyway. They would wish to maintain access to the LK's 7/8th, but also the our far from meagre 1/8 and I would expect as things settle down plenty of compromises will develop.

But hey ... what do I know ???
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Re: Middle East Crisis

Post by Lord Kangana » Mon Sep 05, 2016 7:00 pm

Yeah, but they won't be manufacturing for export to the 7/8ths, so they won't need as much resources, be they workforce, materials, support companies, transport companies, shipping companies etc etc.n SO probably less jobs, income generation, tax revenues etc etc etc.

Of course our economy isn't small, but it's dwarfed by the size of the market the EU presents. Without unfettered access to it, we're not as an exciting proposition.
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Re: Middle East Crisis

Post by bobo the clown » Mon Sep 05, 2016 7:01 pm

Lord Kangana wrote:Yeah, but they won't be manufacturing for export to the 7/8ths, so they won't need as much resources, be they workforce, materials, support companies, transport companies, shipping companies etc etc.n SO probably less jobs, income generation, tax revenues etc etc etc.

Of course our economy isn't small, but it's dwarfed by the size of the market the EU presents. Without unfettered access to it, we're not as an exciting proposition.
Is there anything you aren't an expert on ?
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Re: Middle East Crisis

Post by Bruce Rioja » Mon Sep 05, 2016 8:01 pm

Lord Kangana wrote:Or the Japanese.
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Re: Middle East Crisis

Post by Lord Kangana » Mon Sep 05, 2016 8:17 pm

bobo the clown wrote:
Lord Kangana wrote:Yeah, but they won't be manufacturing for export to the 7/8ths, so they won't need as much resources, be they workforce, materials, support companies, transport companies, shipping companies etc etc.n SO probably less jobs, income generation, tax revenues etc etc etc.

Of course our economy isn't small, but it's dwarfed by the size of the market the EU presents. Without unfettered access to it, we're not as an exciting proposition.
Is there anything you aren't an expert on ?

I'm thinking of putting it on the side of a big red bus I'm that confident about it.
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