Ref rules change

[Village Idiot]

From the BBC site

Uefa looks to rugby for ref rule
Football Focus
Uefa wants football captains to help the referees police the game
Uefa is considering copying rugby's lead by allowing only captains to talk to referees during games.

In a Football Focus special report to be aired on BBC One on Saturday, Uefa's William Gaillard admits the current situation is becoming "dangerous".

He believes captains should take more liability for the game's direction.

"It's common in rugby to call both captains and say 'cut it out, the game is not taking the right course and it is up to you'," said Gaillard.

The Uefa spokesman also admitted that European football's governing body was concerned at the breakdown in relations between officials and players and managers, particularly when the disputes result in violence at amateur level.

"What is really worrying is what is happening in the lower leagues," he said.


Retaining and recruiting referees is already difficult and without referees the game will descend into anarchy

Former referee David Elleray
"There is somebody injured almost every weekend somewhere in Europe.

"That means the national associations can't find referees at the grass-roots level.

"If you don't find referees there, very soon you won't find referees for the lower divisions of the professional game and ultimately the elite (divisions)."

Gaillard disagreed, however, that the quality of refereeing had deteriorated.

He said it was the same as it had been for "a century and a half" and that errors were still rare.

Former international referee David Elleray agrees with Gaillard and points to the increased scrutiny that officials are under - thanks to television - as the cause of the heightened awareness of refereeing mistakes.

And Elleray, who retired from refereeing in 2003, said players, managers, fans and the media have to accept that referees will make mistakes from time to time.

He does not, however, think officials should be exempt from criticism if they make an error, as long as the criticism is measured and in context.

David Elleray and Roy Keane
Elleray had a "firm but fair" reputation as a referee
"I think it would be sad if we said that you can never comment on a decision or say a referee made a mistake," said Elleray.

"We comment on players making mistakes - for example, Saha missing the penalty (against Celtic on Tuesday).

"It was a crucial error but he didn't deliberately miss it, and it doesn't mean he is an incompetent player.

"But if the referee had made a similar error in that game there would be questions about his integrity, judgement and competence.

"It's what is behind the criticism, and the nature of the criticism, that is damaging for referees and football, not the criticism itself."

Elleray said that like Uefa he was concerned the current spate of high-profile rows following contentious refereeing decisions would hurt football.

"Retaining and recruiting referees at the grass-roots level is already difficult," he said.

"And without referees the game will descend into anarchy and chaos."

About bloody time, I say.

Automatic yellow card for talking to the ref = ManU relegated

And send off all the yellow card brandishers, too.

[boltonboris]

It'll never happen, what if a player gets booked and wants an explanation? is he going to summon the captain and have him explain it to the booked player? Certain footballers in the Premiership referee games themselves by constant moaning and intimidation, the refs are too weak to stop this happening, I agree it SHOULD come into place but it won't work

[Village Idiot]

I he wants an explanation he should shut his mouth and accept it since it's obvious that the ref won't take it back. I say that if it works for rugby refs (with players that could kick them to row Z), it should work for footie.

The constant moaning and mobbing of the refs, imho, is worse than diving.

[Zulus Thousand of em]

And 10 yards retreat for dissent. That'll sort the bastards out!

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

And 10 yards retreat for dissent. That'll sort the bastards out!

It's been done! Fact is, it doesn't work with football like it does in rugby, because the game is so much less territorial.

[Zulus Thousand of em]

It didn't work because the will wasn't there. If they are direct free-kicks that turn into penalties if they arrive in the box then they'll soon stop.

[boltonboris]

I he wants an explanation he should shut his mouth and accept it since it's obvious that the ref won't take it back. I say that if it works for rugby refs (with players that could kick them to row Z), it should work for footie.

The constant moaning and mobbing of the refs, imho, is worse than diving.

I know what you're saying but you see some silly bookings, I play 11 a side on a sunday morning andI've been booked on occasions where my first instinct is "whats that for" only to be sneered at by some bloke who gets bullied at work during the week and likes a little power on weekends. Referees should be big enough to turn to a player and say "I've booked you for...." and give an explanation

[Village Idiot]

I he wants an explanation he should shut his mouth and accept it since it's obvious that the ref won't take it back. I say that if it works for rugby refs (with players that could kick them to row Z), it should work for footie.

The constant moaning and mobbing of the refs, imho, is worse than diving.

I know what you're saying but you see some silly bookings, I play 11 a side on a sunday morning andI've been booked on occasions where my first instinct is "whats that for" only to be sneered at by some bloke who gets bullied at work during the week and likes a little power on weekends. Referees should be big enough to turn to a player and say "I've booked you for...." and give an explanation

Yeah well, the funniest I remember was in the Barça-Chelski 2-2 tie, when Cole tackled Xavi and the referee was going to card him. However, he had one already and the referee probably remembered it. So, when he was already brandishing the card he made a fint and dribbled Cole like he was fecking Pelé and showed the card to poor Lampard who had done nowt wrong.

That game can probably see us out of the CL, but reflecting on it, it was funny as heck (and thoroughly entertaining).

Anyway, back to the issue. I believe that refs need to be given clearly laid rules to combat dissent. If a referee yellow-carded every dissenting player *now* he would be lambasted and said that he was "putting up a show". And players take advantage of that. But if it was in the rules, players would behave more.

[Nozza]

It'll never happen. The reason being, rugby players have respect for officials football players don't.

[communistworkethic]

It'll never happen. The reason being, rugby players have respect for officials football players don't.

well perhaps that's not 100% the case, but what rugby refs do is to talk through each decision.

[Bruce Rioja]

It didn't work because the will wasn't there. If they are direct free-kicks that turn into penalties if they arrive in the box then they'll soon stop.

Spot on, Zulu. If a free-kick is conceded 25 yards out then the best thing that a defender can do is to go and call the Ref a c*nt. Moving the whole thing 10 yards towards goal is then to the advantage of the defending team as even the likes of Beckham can't get the ball up and down over a wall from 15 yards.

[TANGODANCER]

The simple answer is for the Ref's Association to make a rule, keep it and enforce it:

"A referee's decision is final".

They will get it wrong sometimes, but generally the players and managers won't get themselves in black books (sorry if that's politically incorrect) if they aren't allowed to question refs on pain of cards for doing so. Wouldn't you just love to see Fergie get carded for pointing at his watch and bullying refs at Old Trafford? How much better would it be if referees concentrated on football and its rules instead of booking players for celebrating? And the police should make it plain that anyone wasting their time with petty complaints will get an on-the-spot fine for doing so. And stop this stupid "The ref told me to fook off" from big jessies like John Terry. Id tell him what to do if he gave me grief. What happened to men?

There is no point at all in making rules if everyone ignores them. The game is football and anyone shirt-grabbing, pulling or climbing all over an opponent with his hands is booked, end of. It would take a lot of bullshit out of the game.

[Little Green Man]

Just allowing one player the right to talk to the ref seems a bit over the top - I can imagine some drama-queen captains running the length of the pitch to query a decision if that came in. (Would we notice any difference at The Buccaneers Superdome?)

I seem to remember that there's a similar rule in ice hockey about talking to the officials. However in that sport, there are a couple of alternate (i.e. vice-) captains on the team that are allowed their fourpenth worth too. Might be a thing to consider if they decide to persue this.

[Montreal Wanderer]

I seem to remember that there's a similar rule in ice hockey about talking to the officials. However in that sport, there are a couple of alternate (i.e. vice-) captains on the team that are allowed their fourpenth worth too. Might be a thing to consider if they decide to persue this.

In hockey Captains (with a 'C' on their sweater) and Assistant Captains (up to three per team with an "A") are allowed to speak with the referees to clarify some point about a rule or call. If, however, they express opinions about the ref's eyesight or his immediate ancestry (as Nolan appeared to do) then they would be subject to at best a two-minute penalty and at worst a gross misconduct. So Captains and Assistant Captains are obliged to be polite and respectful.

[FaninOz]

I seem to remember that there's a similar rule in ice hockey about talking to the officials. However in that sport, there are a couple of alternate (i.e. vice-) captains on the team that are allowed their fourpenth worth too. Might be a thing to consider if they decide to persue this.

In hockey Captains (with a 'C' on their sweater) and Assistant Captains (up to three per team with an "A") are allowed to speak with the referees to clarify some point about a rule or call. If, however, they express opinions about the ref's eyesight or his immediate ancestry (as Nolan appeared to do) then they would be subject to at best a two-minute penalty and at worst a gross misconduct. So Captains and Assistant Captains are obliged to be polite and respectful.

I like the "sin bin" idea of anything up to 10 mins in the "bin" for players to cool down. Players would stop surrounding the Ref after 3 or 4 of them are "sin binned" for 10mins sfter they all surround the Ref over one decision that he had made.

It seems to work in other sports such as both codes of rugby, ice hockey, etc.

Making the Captain more responsible is also a good idea as it would stop the Captains verbally over reacting as well.

[jetsetwilly]

Every year the FA, or FIFA come out with a new set of rules to clamp down on (Shirt celebrations etc).

The problems are not just down to players.

Players treat the ref like shit, but only because the ref lets them get away with it. In the laws of the game, dissent is a yellow card, foul language is a red card.

If a player runs over and shouts, "Your a joke mate", that is dissent, but 99% of top refs do nothing about it. "Your a fecking joke mate" is a red card offence, again, apart from the odd Nolan esq incident, referees do nothing.

The reaosns why they don't use the laws are partly because the FA/FIFA tell them not to. Also, there is athe fear of the media. If they sent off 4 and booked 8 for the langauge used, the media (esp the pundits) would slag them off for ruining the game, and not showing common sense.

All this does is show kids, and Sunday leagers that you can speak to the ref however you like.

Remember last year, think it was Fulham v Arsenal. The whole team ran round the ref yelling. The ref then consulted the linesman and changed the decision. (The FA had promised long bans for such behaviour). Effectivly, the team breaking the FA directive were rewarded.
The week later, the Man City captain went to ask the ref why he had been booked. he was told to go away. He asked again and was sent off. (He acted exactly how the FA had suggested yet was punished).

FACT, the FA preach one thing, but do something different every time.

The way forward....

All top refs back by the FA to carry out the rules of the game. If that means 7 v 8, so be it. Short term pain for long term game. Over time, the culture would change. If you knew that swearing at the ref = a red card, you would soon learn to shut up. When I ref in Sunday Leagues, I very rarely have problems, because when i do, they are sent off every time. The players know it, and so keep quiet.

The other thing that must be done, is the referees must come out and explain decisions. I am aften livid at some of the incompetent refs we have, but if they could justify what they did, even if I didn't agree, i could respect thema nd take that into account the next time he was at the Reebok.

[Dave Sutton's barnet]

Players treat the ref like shit, but only because the ref lets them get away with it. In the laws of the game, dissent is a yellow card, foul language is a red card.

If a player runs over and shouts, "Your a joke mate", that is dissent, but 99% of top refs do nothing about it. "Your a fecking joke mate" is a red card offence, again, apart from the odd Nolan esq incident, referees do nothing.

The reaosns why they don't use the laws are partly because the FA/FIFA tell them not to. Also, there is athe fear of the media. If they sent off 4 and booked 8 for the langauge used, the media (esp the pundits) would slag them off for ruining the game, and not showing common sense.

All this does is show kids, and Sunday leagers that you can speak to the ref however you like.

I think I'd agree with all that. I'd like to see a transcript of precisely what Nolan said - not just the 'final straw' that warranted the red, but the verbal volley spat venomously into the referee's face after each penalty award; I would think not even Nobby's biggest fan would argue. And of course, it's not just our players who assail the referee.

Remember last year, think it was Fulham v Arsenal. The whole team ran round the ref yelling. The ref then consulted the linesman and changed the decision. (The FA had promised long bans for such behaviour). Effectivly, the team breaking the FA directive were rewarded.
The week later, the Man City captain went to ask the ref why he had been booked. he was told to go away. He asked again and was sent off. (He acted exactly how the FA had suggested yet was punished).

Twas our very own house ref Mark Halsey who was in charge of Fulham-Arsenal, and apparently changed his mind after being surrounded by a purple-faced Ashley Cole among others. He later explained (unusual in itself, but necessary given the immense hoo-haa the decision caused) that he changed his mind after asking his linesman for a second opinion. Bad refereeing practise IMO - if in doubt, get the info first; if not in doubt, don't let players sway you.

FACT, the FA preach one thing, but do something different every time.

Well, yes. Can't even build a stadium for less than a billion. (Although having been round it yesterday, it's rather impressive...) I'm sure Lord Stevens' report will prompt solemn nods from all FA heads, including David Dein - still a member of the FA Council despite being removed from the FA Board when it emerged that Arsenal had illegally paid Belgian club Beveren £1m, and father to Darren Dein, whose work as an "external consultant" for super-agents SEM makes him a de facto representative of Thierry Henry and so close to the Arsenal striker that he was best man at the striker's wedding.

The way forward....

All top refs back by the FA to carry out the rules of the game. If that means 7 v 8, so be it. Short term pain for long term game. Over time, the culture would change. If you knew that swearing at the ref = a red card, you would soon learn to shut up. When I ref in Sunday Leagues, I very rarely have problems, because when i do, they are sent off every time. The players know it, and so keep quiet.

The other thing that must be done, is the referees must come out and explain decisions. I am aften livid at some of the incompetent refs we have, but if they could justify what they did, even if I didn't agree, i could respect thema nd take that into account the next time he was at the Reebok.

Not bad, except that as a ref you know that such "interpretation" of the rules has to come from the top (don't rule changes, including interpretations, come from some annual Board?). Of course there would be media mania from characters like Andy Gray, the man who unilaterally invented the "daylight" interpretation of the offside rule and now thinks it's enshrined in Law.

[communistworkethic]

SH a ref? Explains a lot really.

[Dave Sutton's barnet]

SH a ref? Explains a lot really.

I avoided that temptation

[FaninOz]

Every year the FA, or FIFA come out with a new set of rules to clamp down on (Shirt celebrations etc).

The problems are not just down to players.

Players treat the ref like shit, but only because the ref lets them get away with it. In the laws of the game, dissent is a yellow card, foul language is a red card.

If a player runs over and shouts, "Your a joke mate", that is dissent, but 99% of top refs do nothing about it. "Your a fecking joke mate" is a red card offence, again, apart from the odd Nolan esq incident, referees do nothing.

The reaosns why they don't use the laws are partly because the FA/FIFA tell them not to. Also, there is athe fear of the media. If they sent off 4 and booked 8 for the langauge used, the media (esp the pundits) would slag them off for ruining the game, and not showing common sense.

All this does is show kids, and Sunday leagers that you can speak to the ref however you like.

Remember last year, think it was Fulham v Arsenal. The whole team ran round the ref yelling. The ref then consulted the linesman and changed the decision. (The FA had promised long bans for such behaviour). Effectivly, the team breaking the FA directive were rewarded.
The week later, the Man City captain went to ask the ref why he had been booked. he was told to go away. He asked again and was sent off. (He acted exactly how the FA had suggested yet was punished).

FACT, the FA preach one thing, but do something different every time.

The way forward....

All top refs back by the FA to carry out the rules of the game. If that means 7 v 8, so be it. Short term pain for long term game. Over time, the culture would change. If you knew that swearing at the ref = a red card, you would soon learn to shut up. When I ref in Sunday Leagues, I very rarely have problems, because when i do, they are sent off every time. The players know it, and so keep quiet.

The other thing that must be done, is the referees must come out and explain decisions. I am aften livid at some of the incompetent refs we have, but if they could justify what they did, even if I didn't agree, i could respect thema nd take that into account the next time he was at the Reebok.

I fully agree SH, one of the most common sense things you have ever written.

Keep it up mate!