Brexit or Britin

[Worthy4England]

Which bit says we should leave? I think I'm missing it...

Which bit says we should stay?

I'm merely high lighting those in remain who think the EU is an incompetent organisation and after Cameron's attempt at getting some reform live under the disillusion it can be changed.
You then have to start asking what is the real reason the elite wish to maintain a corrupt, failing, non-democratic club membership, decent strippers during the breaks?

Well he's "campaigning" that we should stay - so I don't get the relevance.

But do you get the hypocrisy?

The vote that's on the table is binary, around whether "out" is a better place to be than "in". It's entirely possible to be very critical of the EU and still think that, despite all that, "in" is still a better place to be than the alternative that "out" offers.

[Hoboh]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-e ... m-36485464

When you're driving people away from your own campaign through lies and false claims you know it is bad news....

Wow!

Your straw clutching

Hardly a household name, big hitter is she?

Probably a 'plant' anyway.

And btw what lies?

[Hoboh]

Which bit says we should leave? I think I'm missing it...

Which bit says we should stay?

I'm merely high lighting those in remain who think the EU is an incompetent organisation and after Cameron's attempt at getting some reform live under the disillusion it can be changed.
You then have to start asking what is the real reason the elite wish to maintain a corrupt, failing, non-democratic club membership, decent strippers during the breaks?

Well he's "campaigning" that we should stay - so I don't get the relevance.

But do you get the hypocrisy?

The vote that's on the table is binary, around whether "out" is a better place to be than "in". It's entirely possible to be very critical of the EU and still think that, despite all that, "in" is still a better place to be than the alternative that "out" offers.

But you keep saying you don't know what 'out' offers so how could you or they know the 'in' alternative is better?

[Bijou Bob]

Which bit says we should leave? I think I'm missing it...

Which bit says we should stay?

I'm merely high lighting those in remain who think the EU is an incompetent organisation and after Cameron's attempt at getting some reform live under the disillusion it can be changed.
You then have to start asking what is the real reason the elite wish to maintain a corrupt, failing, non-democratic club membership, decent strippers during the breaks?

Well he's "campaigning" that we should stay - so I don't get the relevance.

But do you get the hypocrisy?

The vote that's on the table is binary, around whether "out" is a better place to be than "in". It's entirely possible to be very critical of the EU and still think that, despite all that, "in" is still a better place to be than the alternative that "out" offers.

Fair enough. If he's happy to vote to stay in an organisation that he believes funds the mafia, is undemocratic and holds the poor in poverty, he's worth even less respect than I've given him so far. There's a savage irony in Jezza's trying to take advantage of the Tory infighting by staying silent on Europe, but leaving his own supporters confused and uncertain. His dithering could cost Labour dear in the future.

[Worthy4England]

But you keep saying you don't know what 'out' offers so how could you or they know the 'in' alternative is better?

I'm not Jeremy Corbyn. I don't know what out offers but have been consistently "in"...

[Worthy4England]

Fair enough. If he's happy to vote to stay in an organisation that he believes funds the mafia, is undemocratic and holds the poor in poverty, he's worth even less respect than I've given him so far. There's a savage irony in Jezza's trying to take advantage of the Tory infighting by staying silent on Europe, but leaving his own supporters confused and uncertain. His dithering could cost Labour dear in the future.

I doubt either main party comes out of this with much credit, to be honest. Is there really a notion that Tory in-fighting would just disappear, whatever the result?

Edit: I'm not sure it actually has any consequences for Labour, over and above those that already suggest to me that he's unelectable so it's a bit of a matter of conjecture.

[Bijou Bob]

I agree he's unelectable, but I suspect that his dithering may well have pushed a good number of Labour supporters the way of UKIP. It remains to be seen what long term effects that could have for the party post June 23rd, but we just might see Labour battered into third place in some local elections. Whether they could recover quickly enough for the next GE should that happen would depend on a coup in the PLP. Interesting times ahead politically I suspect.

[Worthy4England]

I agree he's unelectable, but I suspect that his dithering may well have pushed a good number of Labour supporters the way of UKIP. It remains to be seen what long term effects that could have for the party post June 23rd, but we just might see Labour battered into third place in some local elections. Whether they could recover quickly enough for the next GE should that happen would depend on a coup in the PLP. Interesting times ahead politically I suspect.

Not sure I follow that logic at all - I think UKIP is much more aligned with disaffected Tory voters - I don't see UKIP as a natural "home" for disaffected Labour voters, unless their main reason to be disaffected is immigration and they're over on the far right of Labour. Think it's more likely they'd jump to LibDem or Green....

YouGov seems to suggest that 45% of UKIP voters were folks who voted Cons in 2010 as opposed to 11% Labour voters...

https://yougov.co.uk/news/2014/02/24/wh ... s-support/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Bijou Bob]

I'm not sure the general public follow any sort of logic when it comes to politics. If they did, the pollsters might get it right once in a while.

The last couple of by elections held, Oldham in particular, there was talk of a large swing from Labour to UKIP. It wasn't large enough to win UKIP a seat. UKIP's future isn't exactly clear either. Logic would suggest that whichever way the vote goes, the party and it's aims are largely redundant after 23rd June.

[Worthy4England]

I'm not sure the general public follow any sort of logic when it comes to politics. If they did, the pollsters might get it right once in a while.

The last couple of by elections held, Oldham in particular, there was talk of a large swing from Labour to UKIP. It wasn't large enough to win UKIP a seat. UKIP's future isn't exactly clear either. Logic would suggest that whichever way the vote goes, the party and it's aims are largely redundant after 23rd June.

I agree there's not much logic, but it's still a big move from centre left - assuming the further left Labour loonies were broadly aligned with Corbyn - to right of the Tories. (Not using "far right" deliberately) but UKIP are further right than the Tories methinks...

[Bijou Bob]

I don't think it's such a big shift. It seems to me that many of Labours core supporters hold right of centre views on issues like immigration and crime and disorder, whilst quite happily despising the Tories.

On another note, the debate on itv last night was so one sided it was almost enough to get me voting out.

[Hoboh]

I'm not sure the general public follow any sort of logic when it comes to politics. If they did, the pollsters might get it right once in a while.

The last couple of by elections held, Oldham in particular, there was talk of a large swing from Labour to UKIP. It wasn't large enough to win UKIP a seat. UKIP's future isn't exactly clear either. Logic would suggest that whichever way the vote goes, the party and it's aims are largely redundant after 23rd June.

I agree there's not much logic, but it's still a big move from centre left - assuming the further left Labour loonies were broadly aligned with Corbyn - to right of the Tories. (Not using "far right" deliberately) but UKIP are further right than the Tories methinks...

Bob is right, a lot of typical Labours supporters are leaning or leaving for UKIP.

To see this you need to look at the last couple of local elections rather than a general one.

Take an example of the Kearsley ward in Bolton, not many (if any) migration related problems, always staunchly Labour with the odd Lib Dem thrown in (mainly, so I'm told. because they were locals and worked their socks off for the ward), Tories a token party.

So according to your way of reckoning there is no way they should have just elected a 'further to the right than the Tories', UKIP councillor then, right?

Wrong.

If the vote goes with remain then I'd expect UKIP to grow massively at the expense of either major party being able to carry large majority's (if at all) in future.

[Hoboh]

I don't think it's such a big shift. It seems to me that many of Labours core supporters hold right of centre views on issues like immigration and crime and disorder, whilst quite happily despising the Tories.

On another note, the debate on itv last night was so one sided it was almost enough to get me voting out.

After watching that debate I said a little thanks to whoever put that remain team together

[Bijou Bob]

Wee Jimmy Krankie came off as evasive, Amber Rudd was absolutely furious and was personally insulting and Angela Eagle came off as completely incoherent at times. On the other hand, the 'Out' camp had 2 clear headed women who didn't rise to the bait and made their points eloquently and calmly. The whole thing was a car crash for Remain in my view, which can only mean they'll get really nasty in the next week. Am I right in presuming there's a period of purdah before the vote, of a week or so??

[BWFC_Insane]

Didn't see the debate but only things I've seen on facebook and heard from a couple of people who watched it was that "out" were embarrassing and that Sturgeon stole the show?

I guess it is going to depend on your point of view, as ever....

[Hoboh]

Didn't see the debate but only things I've seen on facebook and heard from a couple of people who watched it was that "out" were embarrassing and that Sturgeon stole the show?

I guess it is going to depend on your point of view, as ever....

Yeah right, that great bastion of the snowflake generation, Facebook.

Now I know where you ideals come from

Just for your information:

I thought leave played as a team whilst remain played as individuals.

Sturgeon, push the SNP and hint at another leave vote.

Eagles, (who I found as boring as a sink full of dirty pots) pushing her paymasters, the unions and labour more than remain.

I'm sorry but Rudd,a future Tory leader? Someone's having a laugh, she jumped around like she had itching powder in her knickers and ranted like she was on her tenth bottle of Pimms!

All of them attacked the £350 million figure then kept spouting for every £1 we put in we get £10 back, with absolutely nothing to back this up.

[Harry Genshaw]

I missed the itv debate but caught question time. Chris Grayling(leave) & Hillary Benn (stay) both impressed me. Farage, for all the stick he gets and attempts to cast him as a racist is a very skilled orator imo. I was leaning towards 'IN' but I'm back at 'OUT' today.

[BWFC_Insane]

I missed the itv debate but caught question time. Chris Grayling(leave) & Hillary Benn (stay) both impressed me. Farage, for all the stick he gets and attempts to cast him as a racist is a very skilled orator imo. I was leaning towards 'IN' but I'm back at 'OUT' today.

Anyone could do what Farage does, go round spouting populist half truths to push an agenda. It isn't skillfull, those that hang off his every word simply lack the ability to analyse what he is saying and really drill into what facts support/don't support it. He knows he'll never be in power so never be put to the test....

Grayling is always very solid if a little chilling and Benn is a good speaker but I always think he comes across a little too try hard....

[Hoboh]

I missed the itv debate but caught question time. Chris Grayling(leave) & Hillary Benn (stay) both impressed me. Farage, for all the stick he gets and attempts to cast him as a racist is a very skilled orator imo. I was leaning towards 'IN' but I'm back at 'OUT' today.

Watch the ITV one Harry as a bit of a floater and come back and give your view of it.

I'd be really interested to hear it and see if I was far off with my assessment.

Some people are hooked into anti personality cults (see post above) and don't think anyone else is telling the truth.

[Hoboh]

This aspect of the Socialist lip service to remain makes me chuckle.

Funny how the left spent years decrying experts in financial affairs as being demi-Gods intent on subjugating the working class and now claim we need to listen to them.

Nothing like politics for those with a double face.