European Second Referendum

[Enoch]

If Westminster f*ck this up I can see the British people coming together for a nice cuppa and a good ol' moan.

[Hoboh]

Boy do you really push the boundaries of reality at times, many good MP's? You are joking, there used to be many principled ones who genuinely stood up for their constituents and principles but those days are well gone.
Honourable back bench Mp's prepared to work cross party, Nicky fcuking Morgan et al? Oh please just call it a day.

Ultimately I respect politicians who can put their party differences to one side and work through this. Over the ones who just shout at each other across the house. That is my view.

I wouldn't name Morgan as being a great politician given she's going to vote for the deal tonight despite being opposed to it. That is the sort of weak party politics that gets us nowhere.

You see the problem with you is these Mp's who you respect are those who follow your tunnel vision of how the world should be and the impressionable youth are following your like.
When a certain generation of people die off how long before youth start branding Churchill as nothing more than an alcoholic warmongering old man?

I would say that is more the case with you tbh.

I fundamentally disagree with Raab - but I respect the fact he's had the courage of his conviction.

I fundamentally disagree with Soubry on most issues - but I resepect the fact she keeps stating her opinion in spite of abuse.

As for your Churchill remark - don't be ridiculous. Its another example of how you just dislike anyone who isn't you, doesn't share your views, doesn't subscribe to your particular view of the world. Its narrow minded.

I respect MPs who can come together and make something practical happen. Rather than just blindly following their parties like sheep.

Mr Greer was responding to a Conservative party tweet from January 24 marking the anniversary of Churchill's death calling him 'the greatest Briton to have ever lived'.

Greer, who at 24 is Scotland's youngest MSP, was accused of 'attention seeking' after saying: 'Once again for the old people at the back: Churchill was a white supremacist mass murderer'.

He caused further controversy by describing anyone who admires the Second World War leader – credited with helping save Britain from Nazi Germany – as 'crass and simple minded'.

One day you will wake up from your coma and realise the world isn't this perfectly wonderful PC place but a world being swept up quietly by Marxists and weepy liberals who infest our education and many other systems.

[Hoboh]

Boy do you really push the boundaries of reality at times, many good MP's? You are joking, there used to be many principled ones who genuinely stood up for their constituents and principles but those days are well gone.
Honourable back bench Mp's prepared to work cross party, Nicky fcuking Morgan et al? Oh please just call it a day.

Ultimately I respect politicians who can put their party differences to one side and work through this. Over the ones who just shout at each other across the house. That is my view.

I wouldn't name Morgan as being a great politician given she's going to vote for the deal tonight despite being opposed to it. That is the sort of weak party politics that gets us nowhere.

You see the problem with you is these Mp's who you respect are those who follow your tunnel vision of how the world should be and the impressionable youth are following your like.
When a certain generation of people die off how long before youth start branding Churchill as nothing more than an alcoholic warmongering old man?

I would say that is more the case with you tbh.

I fundamentally disagree with Raab - but I respect the fact he's had the courage of his conviction.

I fundamentally disagree with Soubry on most issues - but I resepect the fact she keeps stating her opinion in spite of abuse.

As for your Churchill remark - don't be ridiculous. Its another example of how you just dislike anyone who isn't you, doesn't share your views, doesn't subscribe to your particular view of the world. Its narrow minded.

I respect MPs who can come together and make something practical happen. Rather than just blindly following their parties like sheep.

Mr Greer was responding to a Conservative party tweet from January 24 marking the anniversary of Churchill's death calling him 'the greatest Briton to have ever lived'.

Greer, who at 24 is Scotland's youngest MSP, was accused of 'attention seeking' after saying: 'Once again for the old people at the back: Churchill was a white supremacist mass murderer'.

He caused further controversy by describing anyone who admires the Second World War leader – credited with helping save Britain from Nazi Germany – as 'crass and simple minded'.

One day you will wake up from your coma and realise the world isn't this perfectly wonderful PC place but a world being swept up quietly by Marxists and weepy liberals who infest our education and many other systems.

Just for you Mr Greer!

[TANGODANCER]

How would said Greer chap describe Churchill's/our opponents in World War Two, exactly? Did he see Adolf Hitler as a braw brecht fellow who was going to turn all Scots into blue- eyed, blond-haired six foot storm troopers who would mass at Hardian's Wall and obliterate the sassenachs? And what about Germany, Italy, Japan, Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria etc...were they also peace mongers...?

There's no such thing as good wars, but history is history and we can't turn clocks back. I wonder if Adolf and co ever wanted to? Does Mr ( and I use the term loosely) Greer at 24 know much about the multi thousands of Scots who died fighting against a regime of oppression and mass murder? (It's pronounced "marda" by Taggart, by the way!.)

In short, Piers Morgan had him dead right.

[BWFC_Insane]

Boy do you really push the boundaries of reality at times, many good MP's? You are joking, there used to be many principled ones who genuinely stood up for their constituents and principles but those days are well gone.
Honourable back bench Mp's prepared to work cross party, Nicky fcuking Morgan et al? Oh please just call it a day.

Ultimately I respect politicians who can put their party differences to one side and work through this. Over the ones who just shout at each other across the house. That is my view.

I wouldn't name Morgan as being a great politician given she's going to vote for the deal tonight despite being opposed to it. That is the sort of weak party politics that gets us nowhere.

You see the problem with you is these Mp's who you respect are those who follow your tunnel vision of how the world should be and the impressionable youth are following your like.
When a certain generation of people die off how long before youth start branding Churchill as nothing more than an alcoholic warmongering old man?

I would say that is more the case with you tbh.

I fundamentally disagree with Raab - but I respect the fact he's had the courage of his conviction.

I fundamentally disagree with Soubry on most issues - but I resepect the fact she keeps stating her opinion in spite of abuse.

As for your Churchill remark - don't be ridiculous. Its another example of how you just dislike anyone who isn't you, doesn't share your views, doesn't subscribe to your particular view of the world. Its narrow minded.

I respect MPs who can come together and make something practical happen. Rather than just blindly following their parties like sheep.

Mr Greer was responding to a Conservative party tweet from January 24 marking the anniversary of Churchill's death calling him 'the greatest Briton to have ever lived'.

Greer, who at 24 is Scotland's youngest MSP, was accused of 'attention seeking' after saying: 'Once again for the old people at the back: Churchill was a white supremacist mass murderer'.

He caused further controversy by describing anyone who admires the Second World War leader – credited with helping save Britain from Nazi Germany – as 'crass and simple minded'.

One day you will wake up from your coma and realise the world isn't this perfectly wonderful PC place but a world being swept up quietly by Marxists and weepy liberals who infest our education and many other systems.

So because some tool is seeking some publicity it means the whole of their generation is a write off?

And by the way, Churchill was an absolute necessity but it doesn't paint over the fact he did have quite a chequered history and quite likely was pretty racist himself. The idiot MSP you refer to, is rather misrepresenting some facts but Churchill was absolutely no saint and some of his early views are quite distasteful.

History is like that, never black and white. And its always re-written or presented to favour your side and ultimately the victors.

Listen to the song "with god on our side" you'll get what I mean.

[TANGODANCER]

^^ To save including War and Peace in quotes: What a strange (British) fellow you are!

What a fantastic match. In the blue corner: Churchill was a "Cometh the hour, cometh the man" leader who had little choice in taking part in a war not caused by him or his country. He made decisions that needed making and his actions saved this country from German occupation and rule.

In the red corner: A smug 24 year old know-all Scot Green Party M.P. who talks a load of tripe that makes me wonder who the hell voted him into anything? Oh and Bob Dylan who Never did very much actually, who lived in the L.S.D world of rock nd roll, truth and righteousness of the 60's onwards. Of Jewish ancestry, how many trenches did he fight in? Made a very comfortable living writing and playing songs with anarchaic bent and anti everything , and has just been intrumental (pardon the pun) in manufacturing a range of whiskeys. Never did very much actually except write about and decry war (don't we all?) and tell the world how wrong it all was/is.

I sincerely hope this generation he, Greer, (mis)represents, and which includes my kids, grandkids and great grandkids, never have to see the horrors of a war that caused my father's death at 52 years of age and frightened the shxt out of those of us old enough (and the parents/grandparents of the rest) to have experienced blackouts, air raid warnings, food rationing and poverty. "But for the Grace of God and Churchill's leadership.....Amen..."

Meanwhile, back in the college of knowledge....

[Lost Leopard Spot]

Worry not Tango.

You are responding to a poster who believes that immigrants can tell in advance who will tip them or not; and then by divination, piss and spit into meals served by them in advance of not getting a tip, and he thinks it's ok for them to do so, given their marvellous immigrant prescience.

That's who you are talking to.

No wonder Churchill is an intellectual step too far.
(It being apparent he's never even opened the covers on the Nobel prize winning "A History of the English-speaking Peoples").

Or maybe he just doesn't like Winnie because he was a Conservative. Despite being the last PM to ever lead a National Government of Coalition in our country.

Maybe he thinks Churchill spat in his grand daddy's porridge.

Who the fxck knows? He clearly doesn't

[Enoch]

Scottish Parliament elections use an additional member system, a form of PR.

Of the 73 constituency seats (first past the post) Scottish Greens won nil seats.

Via the additional member quota, the PR element, they were allocated 6 seats via their party list (none of them were personally voted for).

The system also allows 16/17 year olds to vote.

Heaven help us.

[Lost Leopard Spot]

Scottish Parliament elections use an additional member system, a form of PR.

Of the 73 constituency seats (first past the post) Scottish Greens won nil seats.

Via the additional member quota, the PR element, they were allocated 6 seats via their party list (none of them were personally voted for).

The system also allows 16/17 year olds to vote.

Heaven help us.

I have no doubt whatsoever, because I've just come across a pregnant member of this clique, that there are, out there, people who believe that foetuses should have the vote (a proxy one, wielded by the mother).
One man one vote. Amended to One woman two (three, four, five, six...) votes!

I'm not joking! The first question she asked me, in the course of the discourse was "How many grandchildren do you have?"
When the answer was none, she honestly launched into me saying she should have Seven votes to my One because she had five children and a baby on the way...

[BWFC_Insane]

^^ To save including War and Peace in quotes: What a strange (British) fellow you are!

What a fantastic match. In the blue corner: Churchill was a "Cometh the hour, cometh the man" leader who had little choice in taking part in a war not caused by him or his country. He made decisions that needed making and his actions saved this country from German occupation and rule.

In the red corner: A smug 24 year old know-all Scot Green Party M.P. who talks a load of tripe that makes me wonder who the hell voted him into anything? Oh and Bob Dylan who Never did very much actually, who lived in the L.S.D world of rock nd roll, truth and righteousness of the 60's onwards. Of Jewish ancestry, how many trenches did he fight in? Made a very comfortable living writing and playing songs with anarchaic bent and anti everything , and has just been intrumental (pardon the pun) in manufacturing a range of whiskeys. Never did very much actually except write about and decry war (don't we all?) and tell the world how wrong it all was/is.

I sincerely hope this generation he, Greer, (mis)represents, and which includes my kids, grandkids and great grandkids, never have to see the horrors of a war that caused my father's death at 52 years of age and frightened the shxt out of those of us old enough (and the parents/grandparents of the rest) to have experienced blackouts, air raid warnings, food rationing and poverty. "But for the Grace of God and Churchill's leadership.....Amen..."

Meanwhile, back in the college of knowledge....

Do you actually read what you respond to? We are basically in agreement. Churchill was absolutely no saint and has a chequered history but he bought people together when it mattered, when nobody else could and defeated evil. Nobody is doubting that. The MSP was factually wrong in many things. But not all. And nobody should just blindly pretend everything was ‘v for victory’. But on balance, overall he was absolutely what the country needed.

As for the ‘with God on our side’ point. It’s simply that wars and conflicts are always rewritten to the side of the victors. But the Indians who starved and their ancestors whilst we were distracted with WW2 might have a somewhat different perspective. It’s important to take a rounded view.

That MSP didn’t. And sounds like a moron. But equally there are more sides to it than ‘inspiring a nation’ though that is clearly a huge, massive and world saving achievement. Stalin also inspired Russia to defeat Germany, we likely wouldn’t have come close to stopping Hitler without Stalin. Yet that does not negate the atrocities committed by that regime. But the view might depend when and where you are looking from. Is all I’m saying.

[Harry Genshaw]

All good points them, Insane one.

[Lost Leopard Spot]

Churchill... was pretty racist...and some of his early views are quite distasteful...

I challenge you to present any evidence of that.

[Hoboh]

All good points them, Insane one.

Yeah but it doesn't detract from my original point about history being rewritten to suit the plans of some and being digested by the impressionable.

[BWFC_Insane]

Churchill... was pretty racist...and some of his early views are quite distasteful...

I challenge you to present any evidence of that.

I challenge you to restore my quote as it was because everything is disputed. Which is why I used the word likely.

[TANGODANCER]

Do you actually read what you respond to? We are basically in agreement. Churchill was absolutely no saint and has a chequered history but he bought people together when it mattered, when nobody else could and defeated evil. Nobody is doubting that. The MSP was factually wrong in many things. But not all. And nobody should just blindly pretend everything was ‘v for victory’. But on balance, overall he was absolutely what the country needed.

Yes, i think I can manage that thanks if it doesn't wander off down half a dozen lanes

As for the ‘with God on our side’ point. It’s simply that wars and conflicts are always rewritten to the side of the victors. But the Indians who starved and their ancestors whilst we were distracted with WW2 might have a somewhat different perspective. It’s important to take a rounded view.

I have no issue with that except A pop singer isn't the best disciple to preach an old sermon just as a self-serving 24 year old is hadly the best example of something he's just read in books. A classic example of religion and the word of God being used to make an unprovable point "God wills it!" is a totally worn out phrase as a war cry. The French and English Kings and the Pope too, at the beginning of the 13th century - and others before them- used it to justify (a) giving their armies something to do and hoping to pay them in loot (if they survived) , and (b) the eternal power struggle with money at the root. ]Pope Clement the fifth and King Philip the 4th of France (who owed the Templars a fortune in loans and repaid them by disbanding the order and putting its leaders to death) were quite happy to use God as an excuse for anything that suited them.. .


That MSP didn’t. And sounds like a moron. But equally there are more sides to it than ‘inspiring a nation’ though that is clearly a huge, massive and world saving achievement. Stalin also inspired Russia to defeat Germany, we likely wouldn’t have come close to stopping Hitler without Stalin. Yet that does not negate the atrocities committed by that regime. But the view might depend when and where you are looking from. Is all I’m saying.

And I'm wondering why war-time history ( in this case 70 plus year history) is being used to prove anything at all about modern politics? It's no more relevant today than still being called Crusaders for not being Muslims. We still have quite enough things to worry about inside the country, never mind what's happening outside it.

[Hoboh]

Cooper-balls, full toss, smashed out of the ground

[BWFC_Insane]

Cooper-balls, full toss, smashed out of the ground

She probably has another go at the stumps in two weeks though....unless the EU change their minds.

[BWFC_Insane]

Do you actually read what you respond to? We are basically in agreement. Churchill was absolutely no saint and has a chequered history but he bought people together when it mattered, when nobody else could and defeated evil. Nobody is doubting that. The MSP was factually wrong in many things. But not all. And nobody should just blindly pretend everything was ‘v for victory’. But on balance, overall he was absolutely what the country needed.

Yes, i think I can manage that thanks if it doesn't wander off down half a dozen lanes

As for the ‘with God on our side’ point. It’s simply that wars and conflicts are always rewritten to the side of the victors. But the Indians who starved and their ancestors whilst we were distracted with WW2 might have a somewhat different perspective. It’s important to take a rounded view.

I have no issue with that except A pop singer isn't the best disciple to preach an old sermon just as a self-serving 24 year old is hadly the best example of something he's just read in books. A classic example of religion and the word of God being used to make an unprovable point "God wills it!" is a totally worn out phrase as a war cry. The French and English Kings and the Pope too, at the beginning of the 13th century - and others before them- used it to justify (a) giving their armies something to do and hoping to pay them in loot (if they survived) , and (b) the eternal power struggle with money at the root. ]Pope Clement the fifth and King Philip the 4th of France (who owed the Templars a fortune in loans and repaid them by disbanding the order and putting its leaders to death) were quite happy to use God as an excuse for anything that suited them.. .


That MSP didn’t. And sounds like a moron. But equally there are more sides to it than ‘inspiring a nation’ though that is clearly a huge, massive and world saving achievement. Stalin also inspired Russia to defeat Germany, we likely wouldn’t have come close to stopping Hitler without Stalin. Yet that does not negate the atrocities committed by that regime. But the view might depend when and where you are looking from. Is all I’m saying.

And I'm wondering why war-time history ( in this case 70 plus year history) is being used to prove anything at all about modern politics? It's no more relevant today than still being called Crusaders for not being Muslims. We still have quite enough things to worry about inside the country, never mind what's happening outside it.

The Dylan thing - he wasn’t decrying religion, merely the US’s use of it to wage global conflict. It was a pretty powerful message if you ask me. But then he was a complex bloke who the completely turned his back on the protest movement.

But my point was simply that most people in any country see a particular airbrushes version of history. Were you born in other parts of the world you’d have a totally different view. Hopefully unlike the MSP it would at least be factually researched to some degree.

[Hoboh]

Cooper-balls, full toss, smashed out of the ground

She probably has another go at the stumps in two weeks though....unless the EU change their minds.

nice one

[Hoboh]

Do you actually read what you respond to? We are basically in agreement. Churchill was absolutely no saint and has a chequered history but he bought people together when it mattered, when nobody else could and defeated evil. Nobody is doubting that. The MSP was factually wrong in many things. But not all. And nobody should just blindly pretend everything was ‘v for victory’. But on balance, overall he was absolutely what the country needed.

Yes, i think I can manage that thanks if it doesn't wander off down half a dozen lanes

As for the ‘with God on our side’ point. It’s simply that wars and conflicts are always rewritten to the side of the victors. But the Indians who starved and their ancestors whilst we were distracted with WW2 might have a somewhat different perspective. It’s important to take a rounded view.

I have no issue with that except A pop singer isn't the best disciple to preach an old sermon just as a self-serving 24 year old is hadly the best example of something he's just read in books. A classic example of religion and the word of God being used to make an unprovable point "God wills it!" is a totally worn out phrase as a war cry. The French and English Kings and the Pope too, at the beginning of the 13th century - and others before them- used it to justify (a) giving their armies something to do and hoping to pay them in loot (if they survived) , and (b) the eternal power struggle with money at the root. ]Pope Clement the fifth and King Philip the 4th of France (who owed the Templars a fortune in loans and repaid them by disbanding the order and putting its leaders to death) were quite happy to use God as an excuse for anything that suited them.. .


That MSP didn’t. And sounds like a moron. But equally there are more sides to it than ‘inspiring a nation’ though that is clearly a huge, massive and world saving achievement. Stalin also inspired Russia to defeat Germany, we likely wouldn’t have come close to stopping Hitler without Stalin. Yet that does not negate the atrocities committed by that regime. But the view might depend when and where you are looking from. Is all I’m saying.

And I'm wondering why war-time history ( in this case 70 plus year history) is being used to prove anything at all about modern politics? It's no more relevant today than still being called Crusaders for not being Muslims. We still have quite enough things to worry about inside the country, never mind what's happening outside it.

The Dylan thing - he wasn’t decrying religion, merely the US’s use of it to wage global conflict. It was a pretty powerful message if you ask me. But then he was a complex bloke who the completely turned his back on the protest movement.

But my point was simply that most people in any country see a particular airbrushes version of history. Were you born in other parts of the world you’d have a totally different view. Hopefully unlike the MSP it would at least be factually researched to some degree.

You are not wrong in people around the world view things differently but there are far too many organisations spinning a web of untruthfulness stemming from our so called educational places, the thicko MSP was just one of a growing band.
I truly think that the idea of everyone being equal and a just society is desirable but reality is it never works like that, would you accept the same remuneration for the work you do as a cleaner and be happy with that for example?
Orwell, although Animal farm was supposed to be a warning against communism, could be interpreted as the way life is today in any system, those who yield power and those who accept their position for the good of all.