The Politics Thread

[Lost Leopard Spot]

As a black person living in the UK most if not all the racism you encounter comes from white English people. Context and history plays a huge role in how things are perceived - and rightly so.

Well, yes, but on the other hand most of the racism white people encounter in the UK probably comes from black English people. It is foolish to suggest that Caucasians in general are more likely to be racist than black people. Individuals can be racist but the UK institutionally is not. At least it does not appear so from over here. Further we should be judged by what we do or say, not what our grandparents did. Racism is certainly alive and well in today's world, but it does not come from a vast group like English white people. It comes from racists with an aversion to persons of a different racial heritage, whatever the colour.

I hugely respect you and your opinion but sadly cannot agree.

White British nationals are far less likely to experience racism than other ethnicities.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/201 ... in-britain

And the history thing is a nice idea but not a reality. If you are a black person being racially abused and called a slave in say Alabama, its a far more significant thing than a white man saying it to another white man, because of the history. Its absolutely relevant.

As for Britain not being institutionally racist - I'd agree up until a few years ago. Now I believe firmly we have a racist government and a racist opposition as politics seems to have drifted to the extremes. The windrush people who got deported I suspect would also have a very different take on whether Britain was institutionally racist or not.

Are you black?
Seriously?
Otherwise I'd be a bit careful here. You seem to have taken on what can only otherwise be called whitesplaining.

[BWFC_Insane]

As a black person living in the UK most if not all the racism you encounter comes from white English people. Context and history plays a huge role in how things are perceived - and rightly so.

Well, yes, but on the other hand most of the racism white people encounter in the UK probably comes from black English people. It is foolish to suggest that Caucasians in general are more likely to be racist than black people. Individuals can be racist but the UK institutionally is not. At least it does not appear so from over here. Further we should be judged by what we do or say, not what our grandparents did. Racism is certainly alive and well in today's world, but it does not come from a vast group like English white people. It comes from racists with an aversion to persons of a different racial heritage, whatever the colour.

I hugely respect you and your opinion but sadly cannot agree.

White British nationals are far less likely to experience racism than other ethnicities.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/201 ... in-britain

And the history thing is a nice idea but not a reality. If you are a black person being racially abused and called a slave in say Alabama, its a far more significant thing than a white man saying it to another white man, because of the history. Its absolutely relevant.

As for Britain not being institutionally racist - I'd agree up until a few years ago. Now I believe firmly we have a racist government and a racist opposition as politics seems to have drifted to the extremes. The windrush people who got deported I suspect would also have a very different take on whether Britain was institutionally racist or not.

Are you black?
Seriously?
Otherwise I'd be a bit careful here. You seem to have taken on what can only otherwise be called whitesplaining.

Which only appears to be a one way thing. You are perfectly happy to tell black people when they can and can't be offended or when they cannot decide something is racist. Yet not happy for someone to point out - as I am - that we shouldn't be doing that very thing and that as a white men in the UK who experience relatively no discrimination or racism - we aren't in a position to make these judgements or understand how the present and historic context matters, hugely.

[Lost Leopard Spot]

As a black person living in the UK most if not all the racism you encounter comes from white English people. Context and history plays a huge role in how things are perceived - and rightly so.

Well, yes, but on the other hand most of the racism white people encounter in the UK probably comes from black English people. It is foolish to suggest that Caucasians in general are more likely to be racist than black people. Individuals can be racist but the UK institutionally is not. At least it does not appear so from over here. Further we should be judged by what we do or say, not what our grandparents did. Racism is certainly alive and well in today's world, but it does not come from a vast group like English white people. It comes from racists with an aversion to persons of a different racial heritage, whatever the colour.

I hugely respect you and your opinion but sadly cannot agree.

White British nationals are far less likely to experience racism than other ethnicities.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/201 ... in-britain

And the history thing is a nice idea but not a reality. If you are a black person being racially abused and called a slave in say Alabama, its a far more significant thing than a white man saying it to another white man, because of the history. Its absolutely relevant.

As for Britain not being institutionally racist - I'd agree up until a few years ago. Now I believe firmly we have a racist government and a racist opposition as politics seems to have drifted to the extremes. The windrush people who got deported I suspect would also have a very different take on whether Britain was institutionally racist or not.

Are you black?
Seriously?
Otherwise I'd be a bit careful here. You seem to have taken on what can only otherwise be called whitesplaining.

Which only appears to be a one way thing. You are perfectly happy to tell black people when they can and can't be offended or when they cannot decide something is racist. Yet not happy for someone to point out - as I am - that we shouldn't be doing that very thing and that as a white men in the UK who experience relatively no discrimination or racism - we aren't in a position to make these judgements or understand how the present and historic context matters, hugely.

I'm telling black people when they can and can't be offended? I'll have to go back and check where I addressed the downtrodden black minority masses ...

[Lost Leopard Spot]

As a black person living in the UK most if not all the racism you encounter comes from white English people. Context and history plays a huge role in how things are perceived - and rightly so.

Well, yes, but on the other hand most of the racism white people encounter in the UK probably comes from black English people. It is foolish to suggest that Caucasians in general are more likely to be racist than black people. Individuals can be racist but the UK institutionally is not. At least it does not appear so from over here. Further we should be judged by what we do or say, not what our grandparents did. Racism is certainly alive and well in today's world, but it does not come from a vast group like English white people. It comes from racists with an aversion to persons of a different racial heritage, whatever the colour.

I hugely respect you and your opinion but sadly cannot agree.

White British nationals are far less likely to experience racism than other ethnicities.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/201 ... in-britain

And the history thing is a nice idea but not a reality. If you are a black person being racially abused and called a slave in say Alabama, its a far more significant thing than a white man saying it to another white man, because of the history. Its absolutely relevant.

As for Britain not being institutionally racist - I'd agree up until a few years ago. Now I believe firmly we have a racist government and a racist opposition as politics seems to have drifted to the extremes. The windrush people who got deported I suspect would also have a very different take on whether Britain was institutionally racist or not.

Are you black?
Seriously?
Otherwise I'd be a bit careful here. You seem to have taken on what can only otherwise be called whitesplaining.

Which only appears to be a one way thing. You are perfectly happy to tell black people when they can and can't be offended or when they cannot decide something is racist. Yet not happy for someone to point out - as I am - that we shouldn't be doing that very thing and that as a white men in the UK who experience relatively no discrimination or racism - we aren't in a position to make these judgements or understand how the present and historic context matters, hugely.

I'm telling black people when they can and can't be offended? I'll have to go back and check where I addressed the downtrodden black minority masses ...

Nope. Didn't think I had!

[Montreal Wanderer]

As a black person living in the UK most if not all the racism you encounter comes from white English people. Context and history plays a huge role in how things are perceived - and rightly so.

Well, yes, but on the other hand most of the racism white people encounter in the UK probably comes from black English people. It is foolish to suggest that Caucasians in general are more likely to be racist than black people. Individuals can be racist but the UK institutionally is not. At least it does not appear so from over here. Further we should be judged by what we do or say, not what our grandparents did. Racism is certainly alive and well in today's world, but it does not come from a vast group like English white people. It comes from racists with an aversion to persons of a different racial heritage, whatever the colour.

I hugely respect you and your opinion but sadly cannot agree.

White British nationals are far less likely to experience racism than other ethnicities.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/201 ... in-britain

And the history thing is a nice idea but not a reality. If you are a black person being racially abused and called a slave in say Alabama, its a far more significant thing than a white man saying it to another white man, because of the history. Its absolutely relevant.

As for Britain not being institutionally racist - I'd agree up until a few years ago. Now I believe firmly we have a racist government and a racist opposition as politics seems to have drifted to the extremes. The windrush people who got deported I suspect would also have a very different take on whether Britain was institutionally racist or not.

Let me consider two of your points (I don't really understand the history and Alabama bit).

"White British nationals are far less likely to experience racism than other ethnicities."

Again, yes. Only some 10% of the UK population are visible minorities. If 10% of British people (I make the figure up) of whatever ethnic background are racist, there are many more White racists than those of visible minorities. Indeed there would be one White racist for every ethnic minority individual, while every "coloured" racist would have some 90 whites to vent their spleen on. So white people are far less likely to experience a racism than the ethnic minority group members. It is a question of population size, while the number of racist scum in each group is remains constant.

On institutional racism. I'm from another country so I am not as knowledgeable as I would like. However, as I understand it, the government has passed anti-discrimination laws. The UK has the rule of law. The judiciary is independent. So the institutions make racism, homophobia, anti-Semitism, etc. illegal. You will always have racist individuals in parliament or on the street, but that is not the institution. I grew up in the UK in the 1950s and early '60s. The country was dealing with the first wave of West Indian and later Indian sub-continent immigrants. The locals did not like it and generally acted in ways we would now consider racist and offensive. The country has come a long way since then starting with the Race Relations Act, which I presume still has force or its descendant does. Maybe we have become too politically correct but we certainly needed it. I remember (with embarrassment) laughing heartily when I read of a cricket banquet in the West Indies at which Freddie Truman said to Sir Leary Constantine: "Pass the salt, Gunga Din". It doesn't seem quite so funny now even though it was probably apocryphal.

[TANGODANCER]

Maybe we have become too politically correct but we certainly needed it. I remember (with embarrassment) laughing heartily when I read of a cricket banquet in the West Indies at which Freddie Truman said to Sir Leary Constantine: "Pass the salt, Gunga Din". It doesn't seem quite so funny now even though it was probably apocryphal.

I wonder if Leary shook his head and had the laugh at Fred's ignorance, knowing full well that Gunga Din was Indian?
" Now in Injia's India's sunny clime, where I used to spend my time, a serving of her majesty the Queen" ..........from Rudyard Kiplings poem Gunga Din.......

[Prufrock]

Well Bruce is looking good for his age.

[BWFC_Insane]

As a black person living in the UK most if not all the racism you encounter comes from white English people. Context and history plays a huge role in how things are perceived - and rightly so.

Well, yes, but on the other hand most of the racism white people encounter in the UK probably comes from black English people. It is foolish to suggest that Caucasians in general are more likely to be racist than black people. Individuals can be racist but the UK institutionally is not. At least it does not appear so from over here. Further we should be judged by what we do or say, not what our grandparents did. Racism is certainly alive and well in today's world, but it does not come from a vast group like English white people. It comes from racists with an aversion to persons of a different racial heritage, whatever the colour.

I hugely respect you and your opinion but sadly cannot agree.

White British nationals are far less likely to experience racism than other ethnicities.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/201 ... in-britain

And the history thing is a nice idea but not a reality. If you are a black person being racially abused and called a slave in say Alabama, its a far more significant thing than a white man saying it to another white man, because of the history. Its absolutely relevant.

As for Britain not being institutionally racist - I'd agree up until a few years ago. Now I believe firmly we have a racist government and a racist opposition as politics seems to have drifted to the extremes. The windrush people who got deported I suspect would also have a very different take on whether Britain was institutionally racist or not.

Let me consider two of your points (I don't really understand the history and Alabama bit).

"White British nationals are far less likely to experience racism than other ethnicities."

Again, yes. Only some 10% of the UK population are visible minorities. If 10% of British people (I make the figure up) of whatever ethnic background are racist, there are many more White racists than those of visible minorities. Indeed there would be one White racist for every ethnic minority individual, while every "coloured" racist would have some 90 whites to vent their spleen on. So white people are far less likely to experience a racism than the ethnic minority group members. It is a question of population size, while the number of racist scum in each group is remains constant.

On institutional racism. I'm from another country so I am not as knowledgeable as I would like. However, as I understand it, the government has passed anti-discrimination laws. The UK has the rule of law. The judiciary is independent. So the institutions make racism, homophobia, anti-Semitism, etc. illegal. You will always have racist individuals in parliament or on the street, but that is not the institution. I grew up in the UK in the 1950s and early '60s. The country was dealing with the first wave of West Indian and later Indian sub-continent immigrants. The locals did not like it and generally acted in ways we would now consider racist and offensive. The country has come a long way since then starting with the Race Relations Act, which I presume still has force or its descendant does. Maybe we have become too politically correct but we certainly needed it. I remember (with embarrassment) laughing heartily when I read of a cricket banquet in the West Indies at which Freddie Truman said to Sir Leary Constantine: "Pass the salt, Gunga Din". It doesn't seem quite so funny now even though it was probably apocryphal.

I think you reflect my view from 2010 ish. But we’ve moved on massively and government policy is being found by the high court to be racist. And society as a whole has taken huge steps backwards in this regard in my opinion. Brexit and the rise of extremist politics exemplify things that have caused it. See rise in racial abuse and violence in wake of Brexit vote.

[Enoch]

One doesn't half get exposed to some bollocks in this age of the internet.

[Abdoulaye's Twin]

Well, if you will frequent those sorts of websites

[TANGODANCER]

One doesn't half get exposed to some bollocks in this age of the internet.

By gosh sir, I do believe I agree with you...

[Enoch]

Well, if you will frequent those sorts of websites

My one tiny comfort.

By gosh sir, I do believe I agree with you...

Just happy I'm able to make my own small minded contribution.

[BWFC_Insane]

One doesn't half get exposed to some bollocks in this age of the internet.

My view is reflected by research undertaken by the UN - and plenty of academic research also points to this being a trend.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/h ... 48021.html

Perhaps you could offer some actual data, something beyond just dismissing everything you don't agree with as bollocks. I think this sort of "if I don't like something I'll dismiss it" 2019 attitude is leading to some incredibly narrow minds.

If you have something to offer that is meaningful and has some data or even qualitative research behind it then I'm very prepared to discuss.

[TANGODANCER]

Perhaps you could offer some actual data, something beyond just dismissing everything you don't agree with as bollocks. I think this sort of "if I don't like something I'll dismiss it" 2019 attitude is leading to some incredibly narrow minds. If you have something to offer that is meaningful and has some data or even qualitative research behind it then I'm very prepared to discuss.

And you don't do this B.W.F.Ci? Quite what Brexit has to do with a section of yet another generation of the mindless arising in minimum percentages as ever each time the wheel turns, is beyond me. Do you blame the milkman when your bin doesn't get emptied (or is that Brexit's fault too?) The people were given a chance to vote; they took it and voted "out". You've already shown the lengths you'll go to to try to change that to your own view. Have your view, you're entitled to it; but don't try to prove everybody else wrong. " Meaningful data and qualitative research" are fine words that don't mean shxt to the racist minority (if there's actually any connection that is...)
allowing the people's vote to actually mean something just might.

End of day, the government and lawmakers are the reason racism is allowed at all, the people who voted Bexit are no more involved than the remainers in such decisions. Just another convenient point proving attempt.

[BWFC_Insane]

Perhaps you could offer some actual data, something beyond just dismissing everything you don't agree with as bollocks. I think this sort of "if I don't like something I'll dismiss it" 2019 attitude is leading to some incredibly narrow minds. If you have something to offer that is meaningful and has some data or even qualitative research behind it then I'm very prepared to discuss.

And you don't do this B.W.F.Ci? Quite what Brexit has to do with a section of yet another generation of the mindless arising in minimum percentages as ever each time the wheel turns, is beyond me. Do you blame the milkman when your bin doesn't get emptied (or is that Brexit's fault too?) The people were given a chance to vote; they took it and voted "out". You've already shown the lengths you'll go to to try to change that to your own view. Have your view, you're entitled to it; but don't try to prove everybody else wrong. " Meaningful data and qualitative research" are fine words that don't mean shxt to the racist minority (if there's actually any connection that is...)
allowing the people's vote to actually mean something just might.

End of day, the government and lawmakers are the reason racism is allowed at all, the people who voted Bexit are no more involved than the remainers in such decisions. Just another convenient point proving attempt.

I'd hope not no. I hope that any opinion I have is formed on some evidential basis at the very least.

The point about Brexit is not that those who voted are all racist. Not that at all. But by a patently racist leave campaign "winning" it seemingly opened the floodgates for the racists in society to once again feel justified to publicise their racism (that is my view). Now this trend is backed up by data about racist incidents post the Brexit vote. The reason why it increased - following Brexit is my opinion. And I'm happy to discuss why you think there was a sharp rise in racially motivated crimes and incidents following that vote....

Also - it is in my view a mistake to think that there is simply a racist minority in this country - racism is more than just hatred and violence against people from other races. UNESCO definition of racism.....

Racism is a theory of races hierachy which argues that the superior race should be preserved and should dominate the others. Racism can also be an unfair attitude towards another ethnic group. Finally racism can also be defined as a violent hostility against a social group.

[Jugs]

I will add that racism is a thing. But, a lot of people cry 'racist' when what they really mean is 'you don't believe what I believe'.

I got reported on Twitter for saying we should keep ISIS members out of the UK.

Apparently I said that because I dislike brown people. What is the world coming to when you can't say you want to keep terrorists out of your country without getting reported by a fellow Brit who decides to interpret your 'I hate ISIS' line as racism ...

[TANGODANCER]

There are approximately 66 million people in the U.K. It takes just one of them to start an internet hate campaign. Those who respond in favour of such are no more likely to be actively racist than your next door neighbour. They are, in the main, sheep, sabre-rattlers who talk, moan, complain yet still buy items from the nearest Asian owned shop or ice cream van or Chinese chip shop or be served in Asda etc, by a multitude of non-white attendants without a blink ( not that most of them could tell someone Jewish from the Dahli Llama unless they were wearing a yamulka or had a Star of David tattooed on their foreheads) . Serious racists and activists usually finish up in prison. The real touchpaper is almost always drink or drug incited activity. The current growth in both, indeed crime in general even amongst schoolkids is conveniently overlooked by the internet warriors as contributing to the ills of the country. It shouldn't be.

To blame Brexit for such is ....well, clinging at straws doesn't go there.

[BWFC_Insane]

There are approximately 66 million people in the U.K. It takes just one of them to start an internet hate campaign. Those who respond in favour of such are no more likely to be actively racist than your next door neighbour. They are, in the main, sheep, sabre-rattlers who talk, moan, complain yet still buy items from the nearest Asian owned shop or ice cream van or Chinese chip shop or be served in Asda etc, by a multitude of non-white attendants without a blink ( not that most of them could tell someone Jewish from the Dahli Llama unless they were wearing a yamulka or had a Star of David tattooed on their foreheads) . Serious racists and activists usually finish up in prison. The real touchpaper is almost always drink or drug incited activity. The current growth in both, indeed crime in general even amongst schoolkids is conveniently overlooked by the internet warriors as contributing to the ills of the country. It shouldn't be.

To blame Brexit for such is ....well, clinging at straws doesn't go there.

But you aren't explaining why there is an observable rise following the Brexit vote? Why in the aftermath of that vote minorities are saying they experienced an increase directly?

If you think there is another coincidental reason for a rise directly following the vote then I'm all ears....

Also you're sort of making some of my point with the sabre-rattling stuff. You can be a racist without being violent or part of a race-hate group...this is important. It isn't just the extremes where we're seeing racism now...in my view.

[Montreal Wanderer]

Also - it is in my view a mistake to think that there is simply a racist minority in this country - racism is more than just hatred and violence against people from other races. UNESCO definition of racism.....

Racism is a theory of races hierachy which argues that the superior race should be preserved and should dominate the others. Racism can also be an unfair attitude towards another ethnic group. Finally racism can also be defined as a violent hostility against a social group.

I'm not clear on what you mean here. Are you suggesting that the majority of the population are racist?

[BWFC_Insane]

Also - it is in my view a mistake to think that there is simply a racist minority in this country - racism is more than just hatred and violence against people from other races. UNESCO definition of racism.....

Racism is a theory of races hierachy which argues that the superior race should be preserved and should dominate the others. Racism can also be an unfair attitude towards another ethnic group. Finally racism can also be defined as a violent hostility against a social group.

I'm not clear on what you mean here. Are you suggesting that the majority of the population are racist?

What I mean here is this:

Tango and others will define racism purely as people who practise race hate and violence. You know the tiny groups of extremists who are if you like "practicing racists".

In TD's reply he said to paraphrase "there are sabre rattlers.....but they'll buy stuff from Asian stores..." And we know there are a lot of people who might not be part of an extreme race hate group or prepared to be violent but who do still say racist things, have racist thoughts and sometimes behave in a racist manner. My view is that this group is not a tiny minority any more. There are lots of people prepared to condemn people purely based on their religion/colour/ethnicity right now - or are prepared to use language that said people would find unacceptable.

Its hard to explain but - see reports of people who don't look "white British" following Brexit being told openly in the street they'd be "sent home now". That is what I'm referring to. That sort of behaviour IMO is far more widespread than overt race hate. But it is still racism.