Vale of tiers: Port Vale (H), Division Four, Sat 6 Dec @ 3pm

[LeverEnd]

I know what's to blame,

Where was the obligatory we'll shit em?

I think we had it from Evatt in his somewhat arrogant selection of Thomason. No need for defensive nous in midfield...

[irie Cee Bee]

Watched the replay. Thomason looked a very tidy player to me. Muscled off the ball once or twice, but hey, so was Duhaney and Santos who are three times his size. The attacks against us came mainly from the wings behind the wing backs, and not through the center. Cant blame Evatt for playing him as he seems a better footballer than White and Comley to me from what I saw. He wasn't the problem, nor was Crawford. The three starting Center Backs were dreadful. Santos, although a giant, doesn't like to be roughed up, and I dont know who told Portvale but they knew it, did a job on him that knocked him off his game. Doyle was great, and we seem to have quite a few goals in us. The better teams in the Division however will give us plenty problems. Need a few reinforcements in January to threaten promotion.

[officer_dibble]

Seriously we have just shipped 6 goals at home to a team that aren’t even in the top 7. We ain’t troubling promotion without several signings and I doubt we can get all the ones we need. I’ll be happy if we keep ourselves out of trouble to continue the rebuild in the summer. I get why we all keep saying it but it’s just arrogance cos we are Bolton.

[BWFC_Insane]

Seriously we have just shipped 6 goals at home to a team that aren’t even in the top 7. We ain’t troubling promotion without several signings and I doubt we can get all the ones we need. I’ll be happy if we keep ourselves out of trouble to continue the rebuild in the summer. I get why we all keep saying it but it’s just arrogance cos we are Bolton.

I think we'd have a reasonable stab at promotion with a manager who knew what he was doing....rather than one learning on the job. There. I. Said. It.

[The_Gun]

Seriously we have just shipped 6 goals at home to a team that aren’t even in the top 7. We ain’t troubling promotion without several signings and I doubt we can get all the ones we need. I’ll be happy if we keep ourselves out of trouble to continue the rebuild in the summer. I get why we all keep saying it but it’s just arrogance cos we are Bolton.

I think we'd have a reasonable stab at promotion with a manager who knew what he was doing....rather than one learning on the job. There. I. Said. It.

I think he demonstrated in the four league games prior to this that he's capable of doing the job. Yesterday there was definitely some tactical naivety displayed from Evatt, but as long as that is an aberration and addressed for the next game I don't think we should be writing off our promotion hopes yet.

Liverpool lost 7-2 to Villa in October and are very likely to finish in the top two of the Prem.

[Prufrock]

Jesus wept you panic fannies . We're 1/3 of the way through the season and 3 points of the play offs. Of course we can go up. Saturday was alarming, but hopefully it's the catalyst for a few changes that had probably been coming anyway and we can crack on again.

[BWFC_Insane]

Seriously we have just shipped 6 goals at home to a team that aren’t even in the top 7. We ain’t troubling promotion without several signings and I doubt we can get all the ones we need. I’ll be happy if we keep ourselves out of trouble to continue the rebuild in the summer. I get why we all keep saying it but it’s just arrogance cos we are Bolton.

I think we'd have a reasonable stab at promotion with a manager who knew what he was doing....rather than one learning on the job. There. I. Said. It.

I think he demonstrated in the four league games prior to this that he's capable of doing the job. Yesterday there was definitely some tactical naivety displayed from Evatt, but as long as that is an aberration and addressed for the next game I don't think we should be writing off our promotion hopes yet.

Liverpool lost 7-2 to Villa in October and are very likely to finish in the top two of the Prem.

But he didn't demonstrate anything yet. We had an abysmal start and got better, but Saturday was the first real test against the sort of side we struggled against early doors...

Look managers for me are less about tactics and intricacies and more about man management, team building and creating that sort of spirit that takes you a long way. I think Evatt is tactically naive but could to an extent live with that. But this team don't die for the cause. They don't go out week in week out and desperately play for this club. That's the failing. And I DO think we have the players with a better manager to be challenging. We've enough up front to build a solid foundation behind them, play some relatively simple football and win plenty of games in this division. We lack in midfield but again I'd put that more down to Evatt than anything. I think Comley might be ok if used right. And not expected to be a playmaker. White might be ok if used right. But we're trying to get players in roles they aren't suited for. Crawford to me looks like he doesn't want to be here - again something isn't right there.

Evatt lacks real telling experience and its showing - not just in naivety of selection but in the way he can't adapt nor can he seemingly get 11 players on the pitch well drilled and all putting themselves on the line week in week out.

I think without adding a single player to this team that we'd have a decent stab of promotion with the sort of experienced managers who can muddle through. I don't think the players individually are THAT bad - we have areas of weakness of course - but there is something wrong beyond even that if a side comes to your home ground knocks 6 past you and easily and feasibly could have been more. That's not just down to ability...not when its Port Vale....

Managers demonstrate something when they've done it for years and years in a variety of scenarios and more often than not come out on top. That's when you start saying someone is competent. Evatt as yet has proven nothing. Promotion was the target this season, one he was very vocal about - that's the success line - and failure lies beneath it.

[Bruce Rioja]

Whoever got the date wrong in the thread title jinxed us to concede six. That's what did it. Own up.

[officer_dibble]

Jesus wept you panic fannies . We're 1/3 of the way through the season and 3 points of the play offs. Of course we can go up. Saturday was alarming, but hopefully it's the catalyst for a few changes that had probably been coming anyway and we can crack on again.

We can do it...but we’ve got a coach in net, no left back, lack of defensive mid options and a striker to find in January . I think it’s a big ask and to be honest given the rebuild job we’ve already done I’ll be happy with mid table...

[Worthy4England]

Jesus wept you panic fannies . We're 1/3 of the way through the season and 3 points of the play offs. Of course we can go up. Saturday was alarming, but hopefully it's the catalyst for a few changes that had probably been coming anyway and we can crack on again.

We can do it...but we’ve got a coach in net, no left back, lack of defensive mid options and a striker to find in January . I think it’s a big ask and to be honest given the rebuild job we’ve already done I’ll be happy with mid table...

Aye - if we ended up with a chance at playoffs, with a couple of games to go, I'd be reasonably happy.

[DJBlu]

Another thread that fits the rhetoric for the doomsayers.

We've got another game on Saturday and we're going to shit em.

If there is equal contribution then I'll eat my fecking hat. And just so you know it's a sombrero.

[Worthy4England]

Another thread that fits the rhetoric for the doomsayers.

We've got another game on Saturday and we're going to shit em.

If there is equal contribution then I'll eat my fecking hat. And just so you know it's a sombrero.

How could we possibly not be happy, grumbling?

[officer_dibble]

What on earth would we post about if it wasnt grumbling? I remember when we all used to post about Allardyces brand of football and ‘only’ winning 1-0!

[The_Gun]

Seriously we have just shipped 6 goals at home to a team that aren’t even in the top 7. We ain’t troubling promotion without several signings and I doubt we can get all the ones we need. I’ll be happy if we keep ourselves out of trouble to continue the rebuild in the summer. I get why we all keep saying it but it’s just arrogance cos we are Bolton.

I think we'd have a reasonable stab at promotion with a manager who knew what he was doing....rather than one learning on the job. There. I. Said. It.

I think he demonstrated in the four league games prior to this that he's capable of doing the job. Yesterday there was definitely some tactical naivety displayed from Evatt, but as long as that is an aberration and addressed for the next game I don't think we should be writing off our promotion hopes yet.

Liverpool lost 7-2 to Villa in October and are very likely to finish in the top two of the Prem.

But he didn't demonstrate anything yet. We had an abysmal start and got better, but Saturday was the first real test against the sort of side we struggled against early doors...

Look managers for me are less about tactics and intricacies and more about man management, team building and creating that sort of spirit that takes you a long way. I think Evatt is tactically naive but could to an extent live with that. But this team don't die for the cause. They don't go out week in week out and desperately play for this club. That's the failing. And I DO think we have the players with a better manager to be challenging. We've enough up front to build a solid foundation behind them, play some relatively simple football and win plenty of games in this division. We lack in midfield but again I'd put that more down to Evatt than anything. I think Comley might be ok if used right. And not expected to be a playmaker. White might be ok if used right. But we're trying to get players in roles they aren't suited for. Crawford to me looks like he doesn't want to be here - again something isn't right there.

Evatt lacks real telling experience and its showing - not just in naivety of selection but in the way he can't adapt nor can he seemingly get 11 players on the pitch well drilled and all putting themselves on the line week in week out.

I think without adding a single player to this team that we'd have a decent stab of promotion with the sort of experienced managers who can muddle through. I don't think the players individually are THAT bad - we have areas of weakness of course - but there is something wrong beyond even that if a side comes to your home ground knocks 6 past you and easily and feasibly could have been more. That's not just down to ability...not when its Port Vale....

Managers demonstrate something when they've done it for years and years in a variety of scenarios and more often than not come out on top. That's when you start saying someone is competent. Evatt as yet has proven nothing. Promotion was the target this season, one he was very vocal about - that's the success line - and failure lies beneath it.

I started writing out a rebuttal of basically everything you say in the above post, but have decided it's not worth my energy.

Ultimately, we sit three points off the playoffs and will shortly have the opportunity to strengthen our squad to address areas of weakness. At this stage I would remain positive that we have a decent chance of getting promoted from this league at the end of the season. If, as the season wears on, we fail to progress and ultimately don't end up in the playoff places, then I think it would be fair to say that Evatt has failed to achieve what was expected of him. Before that point, I think we need to give the manager and his team the chance to prove themselves properly.

[BWFC_Insane]

Seriously we have just shipped 6 goals at home to a team that aren’t even in the top 7. We ain’t troubling promotion without several signings and I doubt we can get all the ones we need. I’ll be happy if we keep ourselves out of trouble to continue the rebuild in the summer. I get why we all keep saying it but it’s just arrogance cos we are Bolton.

I think we'd have a reasonable stab at promotion with a manager who knew what he was doing....rather than one learning on the job. There. I. Said. It.

I think he demonstrated in the four league games prior to this that he's capable of doing the job. Yesterday there was definitely some tactical naivety displayed from Evatt, but as long as that is an aberration and addressed for the next game I don't think we should be writing off our promotion hopes yet.

Liverpool lost 7-2 to Villa in October and are very likely to finish in the top two of the Prem.

But he didn't demonstrate anything yet. We had an abysmal start and got better, but Saturday was the first real test against the sort of side we struggled against early doors...

Look managers for me are less about tactics and intricacies and more about man management, team building and creating that sort of spirit that takes you a long way. I think Evatt is tactically naive but could to an extent live with that. But this team don't die for the cause. They don't go out week in week out and desperately play for this club. That's the failing. And I DO think we have the players with a better manager to be challenging. We've enough up front to build a solid foundation behind them, play some relatively simple football and win plenty of games in this division. We lack in midfield but again I'd put that more down to Evatt than anything. I think Comley might be ok if used right. And not expected to be a playmaker. White might be ok if used right. But we're trying to get players in roles they aren't suited for. Crawford to me looks like he doesn't want to be here - again something isn't right there.

Evatt lacks real telling experience and its showing - not just in naivety of selection but in the way he can't adapt nor can he seemingly get 11 players on the pitch well drilled and all putting themselves on the line week in week out.

I think without adding a single player to this team that we'd have a decent stab of promotion with the sort of experienced managers who can muddle through. I don't think the players individually are THAT bad - we have areas of weakness of course - but there is something wrong beyond even that if a side comes to your home ground knocks 6 past you and easily and feasibly could have been more. That's not just down to ability...not when its Port Vale....

Managers demonstrate something when they've done it for years and years in a variety of scenarios and more often than not come out on top. That's when you start saying someone is competent. Evatt as yet has proven nothing. Promotion was the target this season, one he was very vocal about - that's the success line - and failure lies beneath it.

I started writing out a rebuttal of basically everything you say in the above post, but have decided it's not worth my energy.

Ultimately, we sit three points off the playoffs and will shortly have the opportunity to strengthen our squad to address areas of weakness. At this stage I would remain positive that we have a decent chance of getting promoted from this league at the end of the season. If, as the season wears on, we fail to progress and ultimately don't end up in the playoff places, then I think it would be fair to say that Evatt has failed to achieve what was expected of him. Before that point, I think we need to give the manager and his team the chance to prove themselves properly.

Not sure I disagree with any of that. I'm merely stating that Evatt thus far is not living up to expectations. I'm certainly not calling for his head. Its just a view I have that the team we have should be better than it is - and some of that is down to Evatt - perhaps his lack of experience or perhaps his character.

I'd not change manager - that's a fools road. But equally lets see where we end up and also be very clear about the failings we have. Otherwise we're just ignoring reality.

[Worthy4England]

I generally look to evaluate whether a manager has lived up to expectations at the end of the season, with a "qualifier" to that of being in a Sammy Lee type situation where it just doesn't feel right, straight out of the starting blocks.

We had an undeniably poor start to the season and then picked up (noted against 4 teams near the bottom of the league and Newcastle's U23's). That's bought him some time for me. Had we won 3 points from those 4 league games, I might have been in full on panic mode by now.

I think if we have a win one/lose one type run to the other side of Christmas, then he's probably still ok, if we have a string of Port Vale results then I think we'd have a problem.

[BWFC_Insane]

I generally look to evaluate whether a manager has lived up to expectations at the end of the season, with a "qualifier" to that of being in a Sammy Lee type situation where it just doesn't feel right, straight out of the starting blocks.

We had an undeniably poor start to the season and then picked up (noted against 4 teams near the bottom of the league and Newcastle's U23's). That's bought him some time for me. Had we won 3 points from those 4 league games, I might have been in full on panic mode by now.

I think if we have a win one/lose one type run to the other side of Christmas, then he's probably still ok, if we have a string of Port Vale results then I think we'd have a problem.

Generally I agree. There are instances when not sacking managers - Coyle particularly were spectacularly bad calls that have contributed significantly to our current plight and plenty could see at the time.

We're not at that stage now and I'm not even sure I'd sack Evatt at the end of the season, barring a disaster, but I would be reviewing and perhaps asking him to tone down some of the self help over confidence stuff because its done him no favours.

[Prufrock]

I think we'll know a lot by the of the year. Our five remaining games are against 2nd, 4th and 3 of the four teams immediately surrounding us (the other ominously being Port Vale).

We'll have a better idea as to whether Saturday was an aberration after a recent uptick, or whether we were flat track bullies in that recent run.

[LeverEnd]

I generally look to evaluate whether a manager has lived up to expectations at the end of the season, with a "qualifier" to that of being in a Sammy Lee type situation where it just doesn't feel right, straight out of the starting blocks.

We had an undeniably poor start to the season and then picked up (noted against 4 teams near the bottom of the league and Newcastle's U23's). That's bought him some time for me. Had we won 3 points from those 4 league games, I might have been in full on panic mode by now.

I think if we have a win one/lose one type run to the other side of Christmas, then he's probably still ok, if we have a string of Port Vale results then I think we'd have a problem.

Generally I agree. There are instances when not sacking managers - Coyle particularly were spectacularly bad calls that have contributed significantly to our current plight and plenty could see at the time.

We're not at that stage now and I'm not even sure I'd sack Evatt at the end of the season, barring a disaster, but I would be reviewing and perhaps asking him to tone down some of the self help over confidence stuff because its done him no favours.

To be fair to Evatt he has toned that down. He does seem to.be learning and adapting rather than stubbornly digging in.

[LeverEnd]

I'm a long way from being confident in him though, but am defrosting slightly if not yet warming to him.
Ultimately I want him to do well for the club, as we all do.